Pay Copy on Heritage?

[lou_fine]

If there was initial resistance to the books, my understanding is that it was primarily a price issue and a reaction to Chuck's "price-gouging" rather than a failure to appreciate the uniqueness of the books.

 

Looking back now, I wouldn't mind some of Chuck's so-called "price-gouging".

 

Nothing compared to what a copy of Flash #139 recently went for.

 

Actually, nobody was used to the concept of paying a multiple at the time when the Church books came out. It was a totally new concept to the old-time collectors. I believed the Action #1 went for $25K when the price guide at the time was for something like $10K or $15K.

 

Dave was totally beside himself at the time and thought that he would never ever be able to recover his money on the book.

[Aman619]

Lou, I dont really want to get in between you two guys great discussion. But, When Richard stated that, it opened my eyes, because it rang so true. We look back at he Church collection and see it as the holiest of holy grails in comics. And it makes sense to wonder how anybody could have the nerve to muck with the books, to try to make them 1% better.

 

But, he's right. Back then, they were a nice collection, but who could believe theyd stand up against ALL other copies, collections found ever since? Even Chuck didnt have the foresight to hold onto them as the find of his life. I lament what John did back then all alone in his room with a set of markers etc. But at the time, it was not considered such a crime. Not that everybody was doing it and I wish he hadnt, but the truth is, as dealers who were active then will tell you, there were different rules and understandings that ruled the minds and actions of the hobby.

 

I also hate color touch, and all kinds of improvements to comics, and it is compounded by non-disclosure. But Im beginning to create a "small safe area" in my mind for Church books and Church quality books (killer 9.2s and 9.4s) that are just that nice PLUS some random dots of marker. Not all along the spine of large areas of inpainting. Just a dot or two thatdoesnt really improve the appearance nor would its absence drop the grade more than a notch.

 

Im still not buying them, but I might some day. Which means Id be sorry I didnt start now.

[tth2]

Lou, I dont really want to get in between you two guys great discussion. But, When Richard stated that, it opened my eyes, because it rang so true. We look back at he Church collection and see it as the holiest of holy grails in comics. And it makes sense to wonder how anybody could have the nerve to muck with the books, to try to make them 1% better.

 

But, he's right. Back then, they were a nice collection, but who could believe theyd stand up against ALL other copies, collections found ever since? Even Chuck didnt have the foresight to hold onto them as the find of his life.

People genuinely expected more GA collections to emerge that duplicated the Church feat of not only being in fantastic shape structurally because they'd never been read but also happening to be preserved in a dark, cool and dry environment that was critical to their incredible preservation during a pre-airconditioning era? I don't buy it.

 

Just the unread nature of the books alone is amazing enough, because we're talking about books from the 1930s and 1940s, when NOBODY bought comics to put away unread for posterity. Even in the early 1970s when the Church collection emerged, the concept of putting comics away without ever reading them was still relatively new and certainly very uncommon. If you think about it, the other major pedigree generally compared favorably to the MHs, the SF collection, was also pristine structurally because many were unread, but there it was due to an unfortunate twist of fate that led to an extremely unusual set of circumstances.

 

Then add in the ideal storage conditions. Given that many of the big population centers in the 1940s were in hot and humid areas on the Atlantic seaboard, from NYC down to DC, the expectation should have been that most books from the pre-AC period would, at best, have come out like the D books.

[lou_fine]

I lament what John did back then all alone in his room with a set of markers etc. But at the time, it was not considered such a crime. Not that everybody was doing it and I wish he hadnt, but the truth is, as dealers who were active then will tell you, there were different rules and understandings that ruled the minds and actions of the hobby.

 

Aman;

 

A very insightful post on your part!

 

Not only do you lament what John did, but I know that John also deeply lamented what he did. Although he never told me so directly, he told me about new collectors entering the hobby and not realizing what they were doing in the beginning. He talked about mistakes that were made and hinted at the regret that these new collectors must have felt looking backwards.

 

Although it didn't dawned on me the first time, I came to realize that he was indirectly also talking about himself. I strongly believe that he was just too embarrassed and ashamed to admit it. Especially in light of his background as a major collector of all types of collectibles.

 

All I know is that it's a topic that is very sensitive to him and one that I would certainly never directly ask him about.

[Aman619]

Lou, I dont really want to get in between you two guys great discussion. But, When Richard stated that, it opened my eyes, because it rang so true. We look back at he Church collection and see it as the holiest of holy grails in comics. And it makes sense to wonder how anybody could have the nerve to muck with the books, to try to make them 1% better.

 

But, he's right. Back then, they were a nice collection, but who could believe theyd stand up against ALL other copies, collections found ever since? Even Chuck didnt have the foresight to hold onto them as the find of his life.

People genuinely expected more GA collections to emerge that duplicated the Church feat of not only being in fantastic shape structurally because they'd never been read but also happening to be preserved in a dark, cool and dry environment that was critical to their incredible preservation during a pre-airconditioning era? I don't buy it.

 

Just the unread nature of the books alone is amazing enough, because we're talking about books from the 1930s and 1940s, when NOBODY bought comics to put away unread for posterity. Even in the early 1970s when the Church collection emerged, the concept of putting comics away without ever reading them was still relatively new and certainly very uncommon. If you think about it, the other major pedigree generally compared favorably to the MHs, the SF collection, was also pristine structurally because many were unread, but there it was due to an unfortunate twist of fate that led to an extremely unusual set of circumstances.

 

Then add in the ideal storage conditions. Given that many of the big population centers in the 1940s were in hot and humid areas on the Atlantic seaboard, from NYC down to DC, the expectation should have been that most books from the pre-AC period would, at best, have come out like the D books.

 

perhaps by examining the conditions and specialness of Edgars obsession and care of his collection back then, people might have concluded as you have now, comfortably in the future explaining why it was so. But, comics had just started to come out of the woodwork in the 70s. ( I believe Chuck got them in the mid to late 70s, not early, but I could be misremembering) This was still very early, or early, or pretty early still before the hobby/business really took off. I dont find it hard to surmise that having seen these books that most would have expected plenty more collections to surface, as nice or nearly so. I think that much of specialness of the Church books IS based on the surprising fact that none have emerged to challenge it! But no one would have guessed that back then.

 

At most theyd have thought that comparable copes of each issue would come out and that perhaps Church books would Still remain special in their breadth alone, with nearly every comic book represented condition aside..

 

Im hoping to hear from the few who actually remember what they thought back then... I didnt buy a back issue of note until 1983 or so.

 

as we kno wfrom our time here on the boards, even today there are enough collectors that fervently believe theres 100s of SA killer collections out there. But I dont really think so at this point, but It wouldnt surprise me either since just seeing 6 9.4 AF15s seems like 4 more than I would have guessed. to years ago. Im not equating GA and SA. I agree with you that now it does seem unlikely ther could be too many Church collections. But thats monday moring quarterbacking after 30 years of history.

[sborock]

"The More Fun 52 Mile High was a shared copy with DK and Kramer did not entered the market until 1994"

 

The Church MF 52 was NOT a shared book though I did end up selling it to Dan.

 

We did however share the Church copy of Flash Comics #1

[MrBedrock]

Yeah, I didn't completely buy Richard's post when he said that. If I understand the history of the Church books correctly, they were a genuine revelation when they surfaced because by and large they blew away most people's conception of what a GA book looked like. Big-time collectors fully appreciated how special the books were. If there was initial resistance to the books, my understanding is that it was primarily a price issue and a reaction to Chuck's "price-gouging" rather than a failure to appreciate the uniqueness of the books.

 

All I can say is that the collection didn't even have a generally accepted name until the early '80's. They were books bought from Mile High, not "The Mile High Copy". Many were sold around these parts as high grade books, not as pedigrees. Years later, and books still pop up in collections that the owner has no idea about being a pedigree because they weren't originally sold that way. When Chuck first went around to shows (one of the first being in Houston) he didn't call them Mile High copies. He was selling some REALLY nice books that he had purchased in a large collection.

[action1kid]

The Mile High Action # 1 PLUS # 2 through # 23...went for 25K in total.

[lou_fine]

"The More Fun 52 Mile High was a shared copy with DK and Kramer did not entered the market until 1994"

 

The Church MF 52 was NOT a shared book though I did end up selling it to Dan.

 

We did however share the Church copy of Flash Comics #1

 

Steve;

 

Thanks for clearing this up.

 

The memory tends to go after all these years.

 

Now, can we all join in to play and SHARE?

[lou_fine]

The Mile High Action # 1 PLUS # 2 through # 23...went for 25K in total.

 

A1K;

 

I do not believe this to be correct based simply upon the OS prices at the time.

 

Although I never asked the exact year that Dave picked up the Action run, I believe it was very late in the 70's and more probably, even around the turn of the 80's. Now, the OS guide price for this run was at almost $21K in '79 and over $27K in '81.

 

This would mean that the Action run would have sold at only around guide price if the whole run was purchased for $25K. Chuck was pretty adamant at sticking with his multiples when it came to the Church books.

 

As a result, I feel quite confident that the $25K price paid was for Action Comics #1 only, excluding the latter part of the run.

[sborock]

"The More Fun 52 Mile High was a shared copy with DK and Kramer did not entered the market until 1994"

 

The Church MF 52 was NOT a shared book though I did end up selling it to Dan.

 

We did however share the Church copy of Flash Comics #1

 

Steve;

 

Thanks for clearing this up.

 

The memory tends to go after all these years.

 

Now, can we all join in to play and SHARE?

 

Can't share comics anymore, but willing to share art I cannot afford. 6 months on your wall, 6 on mine. Flip a coin to see who gets to hang it first.

[tth2]

"The More Fun 52 Mile High was a shared copy with DK and Kramer did not entered the market until 1994"

 

The Church MF 52 was NOT a shared book though I did end up selling it to Dan.

 

We did however share the Church copy of Flash Comics #1

 

Steve;

 

Thanks for clearing this up.

 

The memory tends to go after all these years.

 

Now, can we all join in to play and SHARE?

 

Can't share comics anymore, but willing to share art I cannot afford. 6 months on your wall, 6 on mine. Flip a coin to see who gets to hang it first.

What a Krazy idea.

 

I laugh everytime I see the title of this thread. I think a grand total of two posts have actually talked about the Pay Copy Marvel #1.

[action1kid]

It dosnt pay !

[sacentaur]

I laugh everytime I see the title of this thread. I think a grand total of two posts have actually talked about the Pay Copy Marvel #1.

 

But more the wiser!

 

STEVE

[TheShadowKnows]

Did a certain resto guy in Washington resore the Mile High books?But that I mean add a drop of color touch.That is what i heard .Is that untrue?

[action1kid]

Are the *spoon* blaming Bush for that now too????

[tth2]

Are the *spoon* blaming Bush for that now too????