Pay Copy on Heritage?

[MrBedrock]

I agree with Richard, people still didn't want restoration given the choice, it's just that they didn't know what they were looking for (and I have many friends who were burned at that time with the purchase of undisclosed restoration).

My main point about John was that yes he knew to go after keys and high grade (who would've thunk, eh?) BUT...when you are holding the nicest known Adventure #40 in your hands what possible reason is there to put any color touch on it? It's already the nicest, it's not like you're trying to fool someone into thinking it's the nicest - it is.

 

I think that at the time many (including Snyder) didn't realize how extraordinary the Mile High collection was. There was always the thought that truly perfect copies could be out there somewhere. I know from my perspective, seeing the Mile Highs that came into Houston via Burrel Rowe made me think, "If there are nice books like this in Houston, just imagine the awesome books in New York or Los Angeles." We just didn't know what was still in attics/basements/closets. Therefore, if a book had even the slightest defect, someone inclined to restore was going to be inclined to hide that defect.

[MrBedrock]

I did find it very strange, however, that OS always used to try to come up with some type of valuation eqation on restored books at the time.

 

If I remember correctly, it always started with the value of the book prior to restoration and than attempted to add some type of percentage increment based upon either the type or extent of restoration done to the book. Maybe it was just a top down push to try to get restoration to be more accepted into the marketplace.

 

A point in time was reached where Overstreet, and all the collecting poobahs, had to deal with the restored books that were out there. As collectors became aware of resto and books were detected then a value had to be determined. They obviously weren't worth the same as unrestored copies, but they weren't valueless either. A few tried to legitimize restoration, but a majority denounced the deception. No one could refute the fact that there were restored books out on the market which had some value. How to arrive at that value (especially with the limited data) became an ever evolving conundrum that continues to this day.

In a lot of ways it is the same evolution as the pressing issue of today, with the big difference being that there is no consensus that pressing, in and of itself, is bad. Some think it is and some think it is not. Restoration for deceptive purposes has always been criticized by a majority of collectors.

[lou_fine]

In the early eighties, I purchased books and never dreamed to open them as I trusted the dealers who sold the comics to me. I have now learned to verify any dealer assertion. A few year's ago, I found out that my Mile High All Star #57 had minor color touch. The book was purchased from a John Snyder via a third party. I don't know who did the color touch but this information was never disclosed to me. Non disclosure seemed to be the norm back in the 80s.

 

Interesting to see this as I wonder what collectors will say 25 years from now when they look back at 2007 with respect to all of the artificial manipulation taking place on vintage books all for the sake of squeezing a few extra points out of them in search of the almighty dollar.

 

We certainly don't open our slabbed books today as we place full confidence in CGC slabbed books. Needless to say, non-disclosure of hard to detect restoration activities sure seems to be the norm of the day.

 

I wonder if in 25 years from now, collectors will look back and express the same views as Richard did below, except to switch the word restoration with the word pressing or whatever else they are allowing in today's market.

 

MOST who collected then knew nothing of what restoration was or what to look for. Many books with restoration were sold to these unsuspecting collectors. The main purpose of restoration at that time had nothing to do with conservation, and everything to do with appearance (and ultimately deception).

 

Just something to think about with all of the current fisacos that seems to be taking place with some of our vintage books in today's highly grade concious market.

[sacentaur]

I wonder if in 25 years from now,...to think about with all of the current fisacos that seems to be taking place with some of our vintage books in today's highly grade concious market.

 

The amount of damage to the hobby perpetuated by a handful of influential and relentlessly greedy individuals - who incredibly seem unwilling or unable to grasp the magnitude of the harm that they've done - is absolutely astounding.

 

How will we reflect upon these individuals in 25 years? In 5 years? One year? Now?...

 

STEVE

[tth2]

I remember in many late night conversations with John, he would always preach about going after the keys and going after the high grades

Uh, Lou, did you happen to buy any high grade keys from John, and if you did, have you run them by CGC for a resto check?

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

I have always struggle with the notion that should I buy a selection of 4 or 5 nice books or just one high grade copy. Tough choice to make at times.

 

I agree, I'm having the same dilema at the moment: do I buy one high grade "grail" book, or use the $$$ to buy 3-6 cheaper books that I want almost as much. Considering I would be paying a premium for the grail book, I'm leaning towards the diversification route.

George, for what it's worth, from a financial perspective, the history of the hobby indicates that buying the high grade copy is almost always the better approach.

 

Tim, by "cheaper", I don't mean low or mid grade....I generally only collect 8.0 or better, including GA.

 

I'm simply saying, do I pour the money into a high grade grail, or pour it into several high grade books with lesser importance.

[1koko]

If not concerned about liquidity always the high grade grail if looking for an investment return.

 

From a completionist point of view the others.

[tth2]

I have always struggle with the notion that should I buy a selection of 4 or 5 nice books or just one high grade copy. Tough choice to make at times.

 

I agree, I'm having the same dilema at the moment: do I buy one high grade "grail" book, or use the $$$ to buy 3-6 cheaper books that I want almost as much. Considering I would be paying a premium for the grail book, I'm leaning towards the diversification route.

George, for what it's worth, from a financial perspective, the history of the hobby indicates that buying the high grade copy is almost always the better approach.

 

Tim, by "cheaper", I don't mean low or mid grade....I generally only collect 8.0 or better, including GA.

 

I'm simply saying, do I pour the money into a high grade grail, or pour it into several high grade books with lesser importance.

George, for what it's worth, from a financial perspective, the history of the hobby indicates that buying keys is almost always the better approach.

[PUNYHUMAN]

Yeah, it just makes you sick to think that one person single-handedly altered so many of those beautiful books.

Why would you take the the nicest Adventure #40 and decide that maybe it needs just a few extra spots of help? Guess for the same reason he did it to the Green Lantern #1 - might have to settle for 5 or 6x guide instead of squeezing out that full 7x.

you said , a mouthfull!!

[PUNYHUMAN]

More Fun 52........

 

Speaking of...I remember waaay back when Mark Wilson had picked this up and he was so excited as it was supposed to be one of the few untampered with mega-keys. He got it and of course was extremely upset to find out otherwise and Ernie would not even talk about taking it back. (Of course some would say that given Mark's reputation this turn of events was only the balancing of the karma wheel).

Boy, that's food for thought.

Thanks for sharing Sean, BTW off topic , I always enjoyed your sleepers articles in the old CBM.

[PUNYHUMAN]

Lou, Did you go after those Keys & High Grades that John talked about & did you get burned?? Do you still have them in your colllection?

[Kent Meredith]

I know many of the MH books have some (usually minor) resto, but I wasn't aware that this was done for the sake of improving resale value/potential.

 

I honestly thought it was to make them prettier.

 

Am I naive or what?

[sborock]

I know many of the MH books have some (usually minor) resto, but I wasn't aware that this was done for the sake of improving resale value/potential.

 

I honestly thought it was to make them prettier.

 

Am I naive or what?

 

My understanding was that some were done to make them look nicer and, of course, some for $.

[lou_fine]

I remember in many late night conversations with John, he would always preach about going after the keys and going after the high grades

Uh, Lou, did you happen to buy any high grade keys from John, and if you did, have you run them by CGC for a resto check?

 

Lou, Did you go after those Keys & High Grades that John talked about & did you get burned?? Do you still have them in your colllection?

 

Tim & PH;

 

Must be lucky since I have still not been burnt yet from any of John's books. Of course, by the late 80's, John didn't have any real keys left since these were already sold off much earlier and his dealings were really much more of a part-time nature by then.

 

The ones that I did send to Susan came back with a clean bill of health. A number of the books that I sold in the Manning auction when CGC first started came from John and they all came back with blue labels. Of course, none of these were real keys, although they were generally HG ranging from 9.2 to 9.6.

 

Not really that worry anymore since the ones which were verified so far came back fine and the ones I have left just seems so cheap in terms of today's market values.

 

Not my real intention to harp about restored books since I really have nothing against them as I do have a few of them in my collection. Some of them were just too beautiful to pass up, especially in the case of the real rare HTF early GA books.

 

Of course, all of these were brought with prior disclosure which is all I can really ask for as it allows me to make a more fully informed purchasing decision.

[adamstrange]

Some of them were just too beautiful to pass up

 

Prove it!

[lou_fine]

Yeah, it just makes you sick to think that one person single-handedly altered so many of those beautiful books.

Why would you take the the nicest Adventure #40 and decide that maybe it needs just a few extra spots of help? Guess for the same reason he did it to the Green Lantern #1 - might have to settle for 5 or 6x guide instead of squeezing out that full 7x.

 

you said , a mouthfull!!

 

Actually, why would anybody be surprised at all by this given what is taking place in today's marketplace during the past several years.

 

The original statment above is not exactly indicative of the wild west days of the 80's and actually more indicative of today's so-called "safer" marketplace. The Church books were never going for those types of multiples back in the 80's as their prices were more in line with something like 1.5 to 3.0 guide depending upon the book.

 

The small number of Church books that I acquired were purchased at only 2.0 guide at the time. If I remember correctly, that was around the same mutiple that Dave had paid for the Action #1 Mile High copy. The crazy multiples which you are talking about didn't start taking place until well into the 90's.

 

Although I am sure that it was more than one person doing this type of activity back in the 80's, it is nowhere near as rampant as what is taking place in today's marketplace. It's virtually sacrilege to see the large number of people out there today "juicing up" rare vintage books just to try to squeeze them from a 8.5 up to a 9.2 or from a 9.4 up to a 9.6. Aren't these books already high grade enough and rare enough given their age that they should just be left alone and appreciated for what they are?

 

Relatively speaking, I would have to say that the work back in the 80's was done more for aesthetic purposes, whereas the so-called "non-restoration work" being done today is really being done for nothing more than pure greed and money.

[tth2]

The original statment above is not exactly indicative of the wild west days of the 80's and actually more indicative of today's so-called "safer" marketplace. The Church books were never going for those types of multiples back in the 80's as their prices were more in line with something like 1.5 to 3.0 guide depending upon the book.

 

The small number of Church books that I acquired were purchased at only 2.0 guide at the time. If I remember correctly, that was around the same mutiple that Dave had paid for the Action #1 Mile High copy. The crazy multiples which you are talking about didn't start taking place until well into the 90's.

According to Richard on the first page of this thread: "The owner got the GL 1 originally for 7X guide and then 2-4 and 6-10 as a group many years ago." I don't know what multiple was paid for the 2-4 and 6-10.

 

Steve Borock in another thread mentioned paying some price of over $100K for the MH More Fun #52 back in the day, which I'm sure represented a very decent multiple to Guide at the time, particularly considering the book had restoration.

 

Although I am sure that it was more than one person doing this type of activity back in the 80's, it is nowhere near as rampant as what is taking place in today's marketplace. It's virtually sacrilege to see the large number of people out there today "juicing up" rare vintage books just to try to squeeze them from a 8.5 up to a 9.2 or from a 9.4 up to a 9.6. Aren't these books already high grade enough and rare enough given their age that they should just be left alone and appreciated for what they are?

Lou, you and I agree most of the time but on this one we're 180 degrees apart. I'm certainly one of the most anti-pressing (disclosed or undisclosed) folks around, but no way would I put pressing in the same category as color touch or other "traditional" forms of restoration. I hate it, but it's the least egregious form of restoration in my opinion except for dry cleaning.

 

Relatively speaking, I would have to say that the work back in the 80's was done more for aesthetic purposes, whereas the so-called "non-restoration work" being done today is really being done for nothing more than pure greed and money.

This is another one where we really diverge. At least doing something out of greed and money is rational, and you can understand the perpetrator's incentive, even if the actions are not admirable. On the other hand, doing restoration purely for aesthetic purposes, particularly when, as Sean so eloquently put it, the book was the best copy in the world with or without the color touch, and particularly when it was done amateurishly so it apparently can't be reversed, is not only not rational, it is criminal.

[lou_fine]

The original statment above is not exactly indicative of the wild west days of the 80's and actually more indicative of today's so-called "safer" marketplace. The Church books were never going for those types of multiples back in the 80's as their prices were more in line with something like 1.5 to 3.0 guide depending upon the book.

 

The small number of Church books that I acquired were purchased at only 2.0 guide at the time. If I remember correctly, that was around the same mutiple that Dave had paid for the Action #1 Mile High copy. The crazy multiples which you are talking about didn't start taking place until well into the 90's.

According to Richard on the first page of this thread: "The owner got the GL 1 originally for 7X guide and then 2-4 and 6-10 as a group many years ago." I don't know what multiple was paid for the 2-4 and 6-10.

 

Steve Borock in another thread mentioned paying some price of over $100K for the MH More Fun #52 back in the day, which I'm sure represented a very decent multiple to Guide at the time, particularly considering the book had restoration.

Tim;

 

I am not exactly sure about the exact timing of the GL #1 sale. If it was by Dave Anderson, however, I believe he did not start to sell off his Church DC keys until the early part of the 90's. This sale of the big books was one of the cataylsts that helped to pulled the rest of the GA market out its moribound state and gave it that meteoric rise in the mid 90's. The More Fun 52 Mile High was a shared copy with DK and Kramer did not entered the market until 1994.

 

The time period I was referring to was a decade or more earlier when Anderson and his generation were acquiring the Church books. This was when the multiples were a lot lower and this was when the resto work was done. By the time Anderson got around to selling, the multiples were indeed much higher.

 

 

 

Although I am sure that it was more than one person doing this type of activity back in the 80's, it is nowhere near as rampant as what is taking place in today's marketplace. It's virtually sacrilege to see the large number of people out there today "juicing up" rare vintage books just to try to squeeze them from a 8.5 up to a 9.2 or from a 9.4 up to a 9.6. Aren't these books already high grade enough and rare enough given their age that they should just be left alone and appreciated for what they are?

Lou, you and I agree most of the time but on this one we're 180 degrees apart. I'm certainly one of the most anti-pressing (disclosed or undisclosed) folks around, but no way would I put pressing in the same category as color touch or other "traditional" forms of restoration. I hate it, but it's the least egregious form of restoration in my opinion except for dry cleaning.

Tim;

 

I was not trying to say whether one type of restoration was better or more acceptable than the other type of restoration here. I was just trying to comment on the original poster's apparent surprise that anybody would want to improve on a book when it was already so nice. The original poster seem to be totally shocked and befuddled that anybody would do this to a book. I was just trying to tell him to look around and see what's happening today as nothing has really changed except the increased magnitude at which it's being done today.

 

 

 

Relatively speaking, I would have to say that the work back in the 80's was done more for aesthetic purposes, whereas the so-called "non-restoration work" being done today is really being done for nothing more than pure greed and money.

This is another one where we really diverge. At least doing something out of greed and money is rational, and you can understand the perpetrator's incentive, even if the actions are not admirable. On the other hand, doing restoration purely for aesthetic purposes, particularly when, as Sean so eloquently put it, the book was the best copy in the world with or without the color touch, and particularly when it was done amateurishly so it apparently can't be reversed, is not only not rational, it is criminal.

Tim;

 

I would have to disagree with you here. If somebody is trying to improve a book for aesthetic purposes, I actually have less problems with this than if he was just doing it for the money. To me, his real purpose is to improve the look of the book simply because it would look nicer in his collection. He still cares about the book. The person who does it for the sole purpose of selling it at a higher price point doesn't really care about the book at all. He just cares about the money and what's going into his wallet.

 

As for Sean's comment that the book was already the best copy in the world. That's a 2007 viewpoint looking back through the rear view mirror. Nobody knew back in the late 70's and early 80's that these were the best books in the world. Like Richard had already stated, if these books were available in little old Texas, just imagine what more must be out there in the big metropolis of New York, Chicago, LA, etc..

[Kent Meredith]

Those little spots of (marker created?) color touch on books like that pain me too - it's just nuts, whether done for aesthetic or $$ reasons.

 

As to all the pressing going on these days, I have to say my thinking on this has undergone some major changes lately.

 

Disclosure, for instance, should be regarded as not only a moral necessity, but something which reveals a POSITIVE enhancement & act of conservation in certain instances.

 

At one time, I believed almost all pressing was destructive to newsprint, but conversations with several highly trained conservators has revealed that (depending on the state of paper deterioration), the act of pressing can both enhance and lengthen the life of the paper.

 

It can, of course, also be destructive and shorten the paper's life if too advanced a state of decay is present.

 

So motive is really less important than the expert judgement & skill of the conservator in determining the advisability of undertaking the work & that work's ultimate impact on the life (more than the look) of the book.

 

But if the work enhances both the life and look, or enhances the look & has a neutral effect on the life, why not do it? (& disclose it.)

 

(I hope I haven't started anything - I know this is a passionate topic!)

[tth2]

As for Sean's comment that the book was already the best copy in the world. That's a 2007 viewpoint looking back through the rear view mirror. Nobody knew back in the late 70's and early 80's that these were the best books in the world. Like Richard had already stated, if these books were available in little old Texas, just imagine what more must be out there in the big metropolis of New York, Chicago, LA, etc..

Yeah, I didn't completely buy Richard's post when he said that. If I understand the history of the Church books correctly, they were a genuine revelation when they surfaced because by and large they blew away most people's conception of what a GA book looked like. Big-time collectors fully appreciated how special the books were. If there was initial resistance to the books, my understanding is that it was primarily a price issue and a reaction to Chuck's "price-gouging" rather than a failure to appreciate the uniqueness of the books.

 

If anything, you'd think we'd be more jaded today, given the appearance in the ensuing decades of several collections known for their freshness (Carson City, Spokane, Allentown, Hawkeye, Vancouver, and San Francisco (which apparently surfaced before the MHs did)).