Original Art pricing....How much is too much ?

[comicartfan]

I was discussing original art with a couple of other collectors at different times. On both occassions, prices for original art came up and both collectors stated that art prices have come to the point where even they couldn't afford things like they could just a short time ago.

 

Now these are veteran collectors with good-great incomes and impressive collections....

 

So it got me thinking about my own collecting goals and where I want to go. Being that I am not completly unhappy with my collection, I am not really "All set" either. There are artists of whom I would like to add or replace an example of their work, but not sure I will be able to do so.

 

My question is really a two part one :

 

Has original art prices become so insane that people are going to get out or just stop where they are in terms of pieces ?

 

The old cliche of : Are art prices due to take a dip ? - Not a crash, not by a long shot....But can they (prices) really continue to climb like they have been ?

[Kevin76]

Mike, you can afford more than you think you can..it just takes balls to spend it. I don't think prices will take a dip, maybe stabilize (then again Doc Ock in Spider-Man 2 said "it's just stabilizing" and we all know what happened when he said that.Anyhow I can see your point,where a KJ or a DRK page is just getting to the point of no return,lots of people who can afford them,want them.Only so many pages in the book and it wasn't drawn with the intention to statisfy art collectors.

[mrpunch0]

There has been an upswing in prices since I got into all of this and it has been getting tougher and tougher for me to find pieces I like / can afford.

 

But the problem is mostly of my own making. I'm no longer content with a page with 14 panels – I want the splash or the cover. I think some of us tend to forget that when we got into this, (I'd imagine most of us) didn't jump right into the higher-end pieces. We worked our way up to them as we got the guts to spend more and more. (At least that's how it worked for me.)

 

And I'm talking about "affordable" pieces here. Not something like KJ art where you'd have to take out a second mortgage.

[aardvark88]

OA prices have tripled in the last 2.5 years. My union wages have only gone up an average of 2.5% annually over the last 3 years. Would say the upswing in prices has a lot to do with Cgc pushing up the retail prices of slabbed books the last 3 years, so OA collector/dealers, many who have been in the market for more than 10 years, want an equivalent increase in OA valuations.

 

Even newer no name artists have art agents telling them their mediocre panel pages are worth $400 each on the open market.

[john72tex]

As a newbie to OA, I'm having a tough time not wanting to buy more from the same artist and comic. I'm really want to diversify my collection and buy a little something from all the artists I like. I have not been picky towards if it is a splash, cover or multiple panels. As long as the page has a couple of nice frames, I will consider buying (or bidding). Any advice you can send my way?

[Artemaria]

OA prices have tripled in the last 2.5 years. My union wages have only gone up an average of 2.5% annually over the last 3 years. Would say the upswing in prices has a lot to do with Cgc pushing up the retail prices of slabbed books the last 3 years, so OA collector/dealers, many who have been in the market for more than 10 years, want an equivalent increase in OA valuations.

 

Even newer no name artists have art agents telling them their mediocre panel pages are worth $400 each on the open market.

 

This is a very timely thread. I think about this all the time.

 

Although I only recently started collecting, I've been watching OA sales on eBay and in other places for quite some time. I remember seeing a Jim Lee double page splash from Uncanny X-men go on eBay for a little more than $1K in 2001, and then having seen absolutely nothing close to as good as that for that kind of money in the years since.

 

I think Aardvark has identified at least one source of the price inflation. Mr. Trent has often regaled the members of this board with his story about how a dealer offered him a piece --- the next day -- for a 100% mark up. I've had something similar recently happen to me. A dealer bought a piece in which I was interested, and then offered it to me a couple of weeks later for a mark up of about 200%. So, dealer mark - ups are a potential reason for the increase (like Trent, I think everyone should make a living, but be reasonable in doing so).

 

Another factor is the current popularity of superheroes and the prevalence of heroes in the popular consciousness. In the last three or four years, every summer has had at least one, and often two superhero movies coming out (Spidey & FF this year; X-men and Superman last year, etc.) There is a Heroes TV program which is very popular (I must confess to not having seen it). Even as I walked by a local house of worship, the sermon for the day was "Superheroes and Supervillians: A look at modern society."

 

When something is so hot -- like the concept of heroes is now -- that popularity also contributes to price increases as it gets people interested in the hobby (even if only for a short time) that would not otherwise be interested. Thus, a temporary increase in demand when combined with static supply (there is only one of each page) means price increases.

 

I think the price increases created by this last factor will not persist. Just like the stock market, nothing goes up in a straight line. Even those Warhol Marilyns that were discussed on these boards a while ago went down before they went up again. And I believe there will be an adjustment in the OA market. I don't think it will be catastrophic, but I think/hope that some of the "froth" so to speak, will come out of the market.

 

But what does that mean to the current collector? Well, I think that the absolute best thing that high prices does is that it coaxes some pieces out of people's hands that otherwise would never see the light of day. People are thinking, well, I'll never get more than I will now for this piece, so I might as well sell it while the market is hot. And so, we are seeing, even on eBay and elsewhere, some really nice pieces. But when the market is depressed, people will hold onto their pieces because they'd rather have the art than $200, etc.

 

The other flipside is that, even though I've been collecting for only 6 months, I'm already priced out of a lot of pieces that I would like. And, from what I see on this thread, I don't think I am alone.

 

In sum, an expensive art market produces both good and bad results. While I think the market will settle down at some point, it may not be until the public's interest with heroes runs its course and only true long term collectors are left in the market.

[malvin]

Everone made good points. I would argue that the runup in OA is tied in with the global asset runup, housing prices, commodities etc. I have no idea if it will dip or keep on going up. If I knew for sure, I would be rich.

 

As for the source, dealer mark ups are not the problem at all. It takes 2 to tango, someone has to buy at those prices for the mark up to work. That means the problem is collectors willing to pay more and more for original art. Dealers play no part in this.

 

If you want OA prices to come down, what we need is for the economy to tank. High inflaction and interest rates, lots of mortgage foreclosures. legions of unemployed, etc

 

Otherwise, everyone should enjoy the good economy and the high prices that come along with it.

 

Malvin

[spider9698]

The current OA market reminds me of the crazy prices people were paying for vintage Animation art back in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Vintage Disney pieces were going for prices that would even make KK blush (200-300K!!!). The sky seemed the limit. Animation art galleries were popping up in every downtown in America. Limited Edition, sericels and 1-of-1s were being cranked out as fast as they could be painted. Christies and Sothebys were fighting over new-found collections. Then suddenly the rug was pulled out from beneath collectors and dealers alike. Priced plummeted. Christies and Sothebys stopped selling animation art and the BSDs lost bundles when they wanted to get out. It got quite bloody and quite ugly. To this day, the market has not recovered to those previous levels and you can count the surviving animation art galleries in this country on one hand. To a collector like me, it gave me an opportunity to add pieces to my collection once prices came back to earth. To those who thought they could retire to a small Caribbean island, it was a nightmare.

 

My 2 cents.

[westform]

Original Comic art prices have always been insane!... There, that's out of the way. Folks this is a by product of funny books and has no instrinsic value whatsoever!... I've been in this hobby for many, many years and there has always, and I mean always, even when Romita Spidey covers were 1k, been collectors who screamed that prices were going to drop and that these prices couldn't be sustained. Yes, you look back now and think that $1000 for a Spidey cover is cheap, but why? It has no value other than within the collecting community.

 

There has never been a sustained turnaround in prices. The collecting community has continued to support increasing prices over these many decades. My opinion is that is will not stop. In fact, many of the private sales of top pieces show that prices are escalating at as big a rate as ever. And, when you double prices from 10k to 20k it is a lot worse than doublling from 1k to 2k !!...

 

You will always have certain naysaying collectors who think the sky is falling and shout it from the roof tops! No, I take that back, you will always have a majority of collectors and dealers who chicken little it. It is a favorite pastime at shows and during private conversations to shake one's head and proclaim that these prices are 'crazy', and 'where do these dealers get off?'. But, action speaks louder than words... some of my best collecting buddies expouse this same hyperbole over and over than proudly dislplay their latest aquistion that set them back new car money!!?

 

It's just part of the hobby. It's fun to complain; and it's fun to be able to point to an excuse as to why you can feel justified passing on a favorite piece... because it's just to stupidly priced. Trust me, in a year, (or a month at this rate) you will kick yourself for not stepping up. By the best you can afford, trade and sell your 'lesser' pieces to help justify the big pricetags, and you will be happy. This hobby is ultimately not about making sure you got the best possible deal on your widjet; it's about that big happy feeling deep in the gut that resides there for whatever reason when you look at your little piece of beauty.

 

Of course, I am speaking to the hobbyist; if you are just 'investing' then my advice might be somewhat different. By certain names, certain pieces, never be afraid to walk away from a deal for short term gain. But, as a collector, I don't live in fear of the future. We none of us no what it holds.... I mean none of us... not the chicken littles, not the hoarders, not the investors... doesn't matter how long you have been doing this. But, since I do have a reasonable amount of experience I can safely say to my own satisfaction, that there are enough rabid whackos out there (my definition of anyone who 'has' to own comic book art) to sustain this market from now into the foreseeable future. It ain't the Dow Jones folks, doesn't play by the same rules. I don't have to own a share of AXP... I certainly would never frame the cert. an display proudly on my wall.

 

No, comic art is not Cheap! Romita covers shouldn't be a million bucks! It's all vastly over-priced and not worth the paper it's drawn on (go ahead ask your wife!) But, somehow, we continue as a group to dig deep, and deep and deeper for our fix; all the while cursing our suppliers. Oh well,.... by the way, can't wait for that new Avengers page I bought to come in.................................DF

[Thomas]

As for the source, dealer mark ups are not the problem at all. It takes 2 to tango, someone has to buy at those prices for the mark up to work. That means the problem is collectors willing to pay more and more for original art. Dealers play no part in this.

 

Malvin

 

I'm not so sure I agree with this statement. I often see art for sale on dealer's websites that are over inflated and I make a very decent and generous offer and am flat out told no or even worse, ignored. 2-3 years later I still see this artwork on those dealer's sites for the same prices or if you can believe it I've actually seen one piece I was interested in increase in price on that dealer's website over the years yet he still has it and hasn't sold it. One dealer has lowered the price of an overly inflated page by several hundred but it's still about 300.00 over a high end market value and like I said it's still for sale on his site years later.

 

As for the rise in prices I'm sure it has to do with a larger pool of collectors as people realize this stuff is there to be had. I've been collecting comics for 25+ years but never gave it much thought as to where the actual art used for producing comics went to after it was used until a few years ago. Even though I knew about the process and even had Marvel send me some full size 11x17 photocopies of OA to ink about 12 years back I never gave it a second thought as to where that artwork went.

[Sharkey]

Good topic.

 

I collect Silver Age Ditko and Kirby. Prices for their work (especially the popular "classic" titles) has risen by multiples over the past several years. Due to that, I simply do not have the disposable income to buy pages outright of the quality that I wish to collect.

 

Therefore, at this point I have two options: 1. be happy with what I have, or 2. I will have to trade some piece (or pieces) from my collection to land another grail piece that I don't currently own.

 

For example, I would like to have a Ditko ASM page and a Ditko Dr. Strange page. No way I'm paying cash at $15k or a mediocre page or above $20k for a decent Ditko page. Ditto with Kirby/Sinnott FF pages.

 

So Answer to Question 1: Right now I am in a holding pattern. I have bought a few less-expensive things and may shift my collecting focus on other things since what I truly want is now in the unattainable range.

 

Answer to Question 2: Prices of some art (but not all) might dip, but I'd be surprised to see anything across the board, and in any significant level.

I disagree with the idea that there will be a crash in really high end original art prices if the economy gets tough. I think most of the people who are buying pages of this caliber and price are probably financially stable and astute enough to ride through difficult economic times without having to sell their prized collectibles or art, and will even use a slightly bear-ish market as an opportunity to buy more -- hence there will be only a minor effect on the really key, desirable art. Usually people who buy collectibles in lieu of an investing and financial strategy are the ones selling of their collections if they get laid off at work or experience an economic hardship. Let's face it, if you are buying comic art instead of putting some assets into an investment portfolio or if buying comic books or art IS your investment porfolio, then you probably ought not be buying super high end art...

 

Sure, is it possible that a recession or economic downturn would result in a few pages hitting the market? Absolutely. But I doubt prices on all art will be affected. The blue chips will still be the blue chips. And there's always a Rockefeller ready to swoop in and buy it if the price is right.

 

There are a lot of new art buyers entering the OA hobby. Some of them know what they're doing and have financial resources to become buyers of high-end pieces. Many do not. But they are all buying right now and that is definitely pushing up the market. Will it sustain over time? Who knows, but I don't see a major "correction" happening.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[SignatureSelect]

The price of OA all depends on what you like and who you are dealing with.

 

I bought an ultimate spider-man page the other day from John Dell. It is bagley pencils and dell inks john charged me 20 bucks for it. It would have probably cost alot more if I was buying it from Bagley.

 

I also just bought a cool splash page from Ethan Van Sciver out of senestro corps that he let me have a deal on because I buy a page or commission from him every time I see him.

 

Mike Ploog Still has reasonably priced pages from his 70's marvel work if you buy them direct from him.

 

Originals still work for most budgets unless you are going after Miller, Bolland, Ditko, Frazetta, Alex Ross. That stuff is out for most peoples budgets.

[john72tex]

The price of OA all depends on what you like and who you are dealing with.

 

Originals still work for most budgets unless you are going after Miller, Bolland, Ditko, Frazetta, Alex Ross. That stuff is out for most peoples budgets.

 

Too true. I really want a Ross page or Bolland cover, but anything over 2 to 3K is beyond my budget.

[dem1138]

A lot has already been said, but here's what I'll add - Ditko and Kirby are not going to get any cheaper! As long as their are "vacuum collectors" i.e. collectors who will buy art for high prices and then keep it forever, then there will continue to be a limit on the high-end/high-quality OA that shows up.

 

Have you been to a con and seen a Ditko Spidey page and learned the price and thought, "that's crazy!" Well, guess what - they sell or there is some sort of cash/trade worked out - but they trade at the value near what is placed on them.

 

And what happens when more and more museums become interested? Anyone go to the Society of Illustrators opening last week in Manhattan? Amongst the "higher" illustration art on display was a Michael Golden pin-up and the cover to The 'Nam #5. It's definitely happening. However, if you've ever had the fortune to see some art that resides in private collections, it doesn't take long to have the reality hit you in the face: some of this stuff really does belong in museums - it's too special to reside hidden in private collections.

 

I think "museum quality" pieces will continue to rise into the stratosphere...everything else, I'm not so sure about.

 

I think there should be a major distinction between a Killing Joke page - which has tremendous appeal to a small group of collectors - and a tremendous Ditko or Kirby splash from the early Marvel books, or an EC cover, or even a Wrightson Frankenstein plate...

 

Here's another question that may add some light/perspective:

 

Have you ever looked at some of the books that pages show up from? Have you ever thought, "hey, how come there are some fantastic pages in this book, but for some reason, the only pages that I've seen hit the market are not among that group"?

 

Did you ever wonder why?

[Artemaria]

There has never been a sustained turnaround in prices. The collecting community has continued to support increasing prices over these many decades. My opinion is that is will not stop. In fact, many of the private sales of top pieces show that prices are escalating at as big a rate as ever. And, when you double prices from 10k to 20k it is a lot worse than doublling from 1k to 2k !!...

 

While Dan made many good points in his post, this one is of particular interest. There seems to be a widening of the gap between good art and legendary art. You can still find many nice pages (panel or otherwise) for under $3K, but if you want something legendary, it will cost you. Ditko Spidey, Kirby (any splashes from the 60s) etc. will set you back 5 digits.

 

So, if there is a loss of "froth" as I think there will be, although I have no idea when this will happen, a year, two years, or when there are less superheroes in the public consciousness, whenever that time comes, I wonder whether there will be a disproportionate effect on certain parts of the market?

 

If I had to guess, I'd say it is the middle of the market, because that is catching some appreciation now that it may not get otherwise. I agree with the other posters that the absolute best stuff out there (most of which is already extremely expensive) likely will not see any significant depreciation over long periods of time.

 

Regardless of whether there is ever a point where the market is stagnant or not, the gap in the lower ends of the market and the higher priced pieces is widening at a very very rapid clip. And I have no idea why this is occuring.

 

 

[dem1138]

 

Regardless of whether there is ever a point where the market is stagnant or not, the gap in the lower ends of the market and the higher priced pieces is widening at a very very rapid clip. And I have no idea why this is occuring.

 

 

 

I think this is directly relateable/applicable to the fine art market. It is possible to get a Picasso etching for 5 figures, but to get one of his major works will cost you 9 figures.

 

How far off are we to when a fine example of Kirby or Ditko nets 6 figures (or has it already)? Frazetta is clearly already there.

 

I think the market is separating the wheat from the chaffe. The best stuff is getting stocked away in private collections, much the same way that Warhols, etc. were long ago. Some of it will wind up in Museums and some of it will reside in private collections. A lot will float around the market at varying prices - but when anything truly great becomes available - there will be a frenzy for it because that stuff rarely, if ever, will come to market.

 

Good recent examples: Jerry Bails' OA, the Doomsday page from FF 59...primo stuff that was available briefly and now is lost for the ages...leaving that much less high-quality OA for the rest of us to try to obtain.

[westform]

David; while I mostly agree with you, I don't think current pricing reflects anticipation of musuems stepping in to purchase. I know it is not a factor in my purchasing. I really don't know if this is ever going to happen.... it may, it may not. An exhibition is one thing, forking over the endowement is another.

 

While I think that much original art seems to come around again once sold, there is also a large portion (especially the good stuff) that is gone for the foreseeable future. There does seem to be a little bit of panic buying when it comes to Kirby and Ditko.... as collector's seem to be a bit worried they will miss the boat on some of the pieces they've been looking for and seem to be quickly disappearing. Also, the higher prices do bring out the better stuff to some extent as older collectors take profits and move on, but you gotta pony up!

 

Also, I'm not so sure about Kirby/Ditko being the only top of the crop picks. I see no reason why a bolland KJ page wouldn't keep pace ad infinitum. Who knows, there could be a whole show at the Whitney one day just featuring Bolland's work. Personally, I wouldn't go more than 2 or 3k if prices were not relevent, as it's not my thing, but the hobby will always decide what is 'good', and the outsiders, aka musuems, investors will follow our lead. Museums and investors will look for experts on the field, and those experts will almost certainly be insiders in our hobby. There are many, many comic artists that potentially could be in a musuem given the right angle. Buscema, Starlin, Byrne, etc, etc. But, it would be the best and most representatvie of their work no matter who's star shines. That's just my opinion, but i think I'm right....

[artdealer]

Speaking as a dealer, I have to charge higher prices, especially if I'm to get art to sell from clents. A good example are Frazetta Johnny Comet dailies. You could have had them for a couple of grand not too long ago, now, for a good daily, it will cost you $4500-5000. That's cause Heritage got that much for 2 dailies last month. So now everyone raises the bar on those, and it works the same way with other artists work.

 

Prices won't come down so long as there is good material. Artists like Finch and his kind can't sustain those awfully high prices. They are young guys and will be drawing for years. People have been saying for years that prices are going to come down, and they don't, they just go up.

 

Mitch I.

[spider9698]

As someone mentioned in a previous post, A+++ pieces are few and far between. When they surface, a bidding war usually breaks out. For the B- to C-grade pieces there will continue to be solid but reasonable growth. There will continue to be a wider and wider spread between the A+++ and C prices.

In addition A+++ pieces also have limit availability to help hike up the prices. There are only so many Ditko ASM covers, large-size Kirby-Sinnott FF covers and DKR splashes produced. The pages that survived have often been purchased and buried into collections years ago. So if one trickles out, there are a dozen or so heavy hitters willing to bring out the bags-o-cash needed to secure the piece.

[TheWatcher]

Right now I am in a holding pattern

 

You just need me to buy some more of your pre-heroes.

 

 

Angelo