Tcarroll17

Andddd another one.  No art notes.  No key notes.  Back to the frying pan and pray for no damage 🤷🏼

On 5/18/2023 at 2:21 PM, ramrodcar said:

Somewhat analogous, if you were purchasing new windows for your house it would be unreasonable of the supplier to expect you the customer to accept say glass scratches, scuffs, and fogging in between the glass panes. There is an expectation of CLARITY when buying windows, as well as part of CGC's product offering.

On 5/18/2023 at 2:21 PM, ramrodcar said:

All the other stuff about age of slabs, would you buy this or that, disclosure as a seller, etc... is irrelevant to the complaints in this thread and the new policy

This, yes.  I have had eyeglass lenses remade for the same reason.

On 5/18/2023 at 2:02 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

I am trying to get a feel for how you as collector.  You come off as a collector not a dealer. 

I think its odd when people have major OCD.

So would agree there is some wiggle room in disclosure or the case must be 100% perfect no matter what year it was graded.

Example below.  Is that acceptable or you would disclose that? (top right corner small scratch)

 

To me, that's acceptable.  I have a number that have come back with a comparable scratch, as have I bought them at shows or online, and really am fine with it.  I think there's a middle ground here too.  Minor flaws, I am in total agreement not necessarily an ME.  It's still nice to have it disclosed as a buyer.  I actually am MORE LIKELY to buy secondary if someone says "small scratch top right corner," than if I think there is a scratch, but can't tell and not disclosed.  Many sellers simply don't respond when asked, and have gotten slabs with very severe scratches, one even with a chip out of the side that was not disclosed.  

However, that's going to be the rub.  In between the very minor issues like you posted, and the very egregious as others have posted including myself, the policy is ambiguous enough to put the onus further on the customer than on the business providing the service.  If there is a tiny scratch or 1mm newton ring, that's silly and they should reject it as ME.  But my concern is that will not be the case.  I could see them getting books like my Hulk 181 back I just posted, and saying "ahh, this is acceptable, it's not THAT bad.  I mean, it made it out of QC, so someone else thought it was fine too.

Again, my frustration is more with the QC, as Stefan_W said. I could send back a true ME, but frankly it's a lot of energy sending back, waiting, asking why it's so delayed, then praying it's actually corrected upon receipt (after 3 months).

The policy would be acceptable if were rarely needed.  Currently, it is not rare, even when taking out the "OCD ME."

On 5/17/2023 at 12:13 PM, Still Only 20¢ said:

I've had several slabs in the past few months that have had this scuffing/residue AND Newton Rings in the same areas of the slab.  They actually seem to play well together.

Well there goes my unfounded, rampant speculation! 

On 5/16/2023 at 11:50 PM, Stefan_W said:

I haven't had an order without an ME in ages, and now that a lot of issues are no longer covered I feel less confident sending books in.

I have lots that come back okay still, that's what is so annoying!  I'll get a perfect, crystal clear case, book centered well and I beam with pride.  Then the next one in the box makes me cringe.

On 5/16/2023 at 11:50 PM, Stefan_W said:

This is frustrating because they never list these defects in the listing. I can see people who get books with newton rings and other things just dumping them at CL in the future knowing full well that people will bid as if those flaws did not exist, and although I do not own a crystal ball I anticipate that percentage of flawed slabs in their auctions will grow. This means I am less likely to buy comics from sites like that (caveat that prior to bidding you can check the slab number to see if it was slabbed before or after May 16 2023 but I am really not doing to do that). 

Yes.  I am very hesitant now to buy even on secondary market.  Sent one back from eBay last month because the scuffing inside was so bad.  I have not had any issues with slabs from Heritage, yet.  But these issues are out there, and will grow.  I have trouble getting good pictures myself, so I know how easy it is to conceal in a listing.  It's very evident the second you open it, though.  You can't not see these issues, no way QC can be missing them.  It's simply a policy to send them anyway and dare the customer.  

On 5/17/2023 at 9:28 AM, skypinkblu said:

The cases were supposed to protect the books, guarantee a grade for those who were getting scammed, and display collectibles in a holder that you'd be proud to show off.

It really is that simple, perfect summation of the expectation.  The TAT running long, minor issues in a rare instance, prices going up with inflation, policy updates that make sense, no problem.  At the end of the day, if they just do what you outlined, I keep coming back again and again.  But now they fail at that most basic premise, what's the point? 

On 5/16/2023 at 11:50 PM, smarkjobber said:

That's on the inner sleeve, not the outer case? I've had great success with Polywatch on the outer case scuffs. Eliminated/significantly reduced about 85% of scuffs in like 5 minutes of effort. Obviously not defending CGC on this issue, but it's an easier solve than ME.

Yes, it's on the inside.  This has been the ongoing issue for past handful of months.  No idea what it is.  Have looked at it closely, under magnification, and even cracked two open to check it out.  Seems to be either scuffing or residue on the inner sleeve.  Obviously, don't want to rub/press down on the case which could damage the book or case.  There is no reasonable way to clean it.  Even the ones I cracked, using a soft cloth did nothing to remove it.  I have no idea how/why it's even occurring.  Has to be either a root defect from whoever manufactures the sleeves and CGC is just sending them anyway to cut losses, or it's something during encapsulation/from handling.

I almost wondered if it was something implemented to reduce the newton rings?  I noticed about the time I saw a huge decrease in rings, this new scuffing/residue started showing up.  

On 5/16/2023 at 10:51 PM, mattn792 said:

At this point, I think it’s safe to say that everyone’s worst fears about the Blackstone take over have come true. The recent exorbitant price hikes and new ME policy make it perfectly clear that dealing with CGC (at the very least, are the other members of CCG also suffering from this?) is just like watching Goodfellas:

- Your book’s FMV is $1050?  Fk you, pay me.

- Newton rings make it look like your book was slabbed by BP?  Fk you, pay me.

- Plastic shards in your slab?  Fk you, pay me.

- Your mom was in the hospital and you didn’t notice an ME until 30 days later?  Fk you, pay me.

Blackstone stock is also down about 45% in the past 18 months if you’re looking for some correlations.  

It's very evident they no longer care about the "collection" aspect.  You point out a key word, "members."  At the end of the day, this is a group of members, with varied interests.  People collect for different reasons, but the end goal is the same.  We are members that pay for a service.  The service is to preserve and display, as well as validate our collectible.  Adjacently, it's to connect with other members in a shared interest.  It's hard to trust CGC on the latter when they clearly are not concerned about the former.  Personally, I don't care if it's validated if it looks like spoon. 

On 5/16/2023 at 11:11 PM, wombat said:

Is this the straw that broke the camel's back for some of you? Its mind boggling to me it hasn't already happened. 

It's not the policy so much as the policy change in conjunction with price increase and QC issues.  I would have no problem with this policy if 70% of the books I get didn't need ME returns.  I don't trust them to fix them, so I'll just be done sending instead. 

On 5/16/2023 at 9:44 PM, asteroid-comix said:

That's unacceptable. How is that not caught? How does someone let that go out the door? There can't be any quality control, given that is not uncommon. If that were the exception, it could be marked down as isolated human error. But, with virtually everyone getting submissions back with issues, there can't be any type of quality process.

If it were isolated, they wouldn't be coming out with a policy like they have here. They are hemorrhaging money (errrrr...gluttonous profit) on ME (paying shipping, materials, etc.). They are trying to stop the bleeding and have no other ideas on how to make that happen. 

Having studied organizations and run operations for a very long time at a very high-level with a terminal degree for the same on the horizon, I'll say this as fact. These inconsistencies and quality issues are just what we see, but there are others. There are serious breakdowns in process happening at CGC (which comes from poor leadership). Heck, just look at the way they track cycle-time. Cycle-time starts from the point when they open the package? Serious? How is that my experience as a customer? The cycle-time of a firm should represent the experience of the consumer when you publish it to convey to the customer how long something should take, not your internal garbage processes. How do they not see this? No one cares about how long it takes Johnny from the point at which he opens the package. They care about it from the point you got the package until when you sent it out. That's a firm more concerned about themselves than their consumers. Period. 

My next batch of books are going someplace else. If anyone thinks that the grading, book storage and protection, or anything else at CGC is being run effectively and consistently, you are delusional. You don't wet the bed this consistently on quality of cases and nail everything else. It just doesn't work that way with organizations. I remember the old days when we used to joke on these forums about the grading company that was being paid for grades or swapping books out. Well, how far we have come. I no longer trust CGC. 
 

It's absolutely baffling, infuriating, and frankly, insulting.  Honestly, shame on me at this point.  Had so many issues the last few months.  Should have learned my lesson last month with my GSX 1.  Near same situation, except the TAT was spot on.  Press looked great.  But my slab is littered with the scuffs, and then the inner bag had two plastic shards inside.  Not in the slab, literally sealed in the bag, touching the comic.  

I agree.  The only conclusion I can arrive at is that there is literally no QC.  There cannot be.  It's impossible.  If, by some chance there is really QC, I cannot even begin to fathom how bad the other issues are?  Like how bad are the other QC problems that they see my extremely valuable comic littered with scuffing and say, "yeah, you know what, good enough compared to those other, more egregious errors I caught."  I've found these scuffs are hard to capture in pictures, but they are obvious in-person.  A human could not have looked at this Hulk 181 and not noticed.  No way, it's all over the front, it's the first thing you see, not my favorite character flying claws out, but the scuffs.

Right, it's basically a game of chicken.  They are daring people to send it back.  You want to rush it back, wait 3 months, and maybe not even fix the problem?  You want us to possibly charge you because we say you are wrong and the issue is "acceptable?" We dare you, roll the dice, come on!  90% of people probably will never send it back in.  In reality, the rate of errors is probably much greater, because many people just eat it.  

In summation I would echo what you say.  I no longer trust CGC.  I won't do it anymore.  This is a hobby...it used to be fun.  This is insane and I'm jumping off the carousel.  If the other guys were smart they'd offer a $5 conversion to their product.  In the end, the product speaks for itself.  And this product is simply vomiting.

Back today... After paying for walkthrough...pressing takes 11 days.  Grading takes another 9 days, both WK tier.  Mind you, took 5 days to open the box, covered in red and black WK.  Okay, great, they get slammed, I can live with it, although it's not cool for paying a premium.  

What I CANNOT tolerate, is after waiting 25 days for an advertised 5 days total TAT (3 pressing + 2 grading when sent in), is my cherished collectible being returned to me like this.  Like what the actual heck?  It is COVERED in the now standard CGC smudge/scuffs/goo/whateveritis on the sealed bag.

I mean, seriously, how is this acceptable to return to me like this?  

Now my recourse is to rush it back in, lickety split, or else I'm out another $50+2x shipping charges.  Wait 60-90 days and pray that maybe, just maybe it will look better this time.  

I was beyond excited to get this back.  It's like being a kid on Christmas morning again.  Then just absolutely crushed when it has issues.  Unbelievable.  

Pictures are just the worst.  It is all over, 1-3mm spots up and down.  Somehow the back is crystal clear, yay

On 5/9/2023 at 2:13 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Curious how many books are we talking about here?

Are you saying if you get 10 books back then 7 of them have problems?

I get back between 100-125 CGC books per month, and over the last 2 years, maybe I had ME's with around 10 out of a couple thousand.

Yes, many 

Got one back today.  One book, so that's 100% rate.

Got back a 7 book modern sub, 5 have the issue.

2 books express, one has the scuffs

Another wk from last month, covered in scuffs and 3 plastic shards in the case, 2 actually touching my comic (can see with a magnifying glass it's pressing the paper down).

Guess I'm drawing the unlucky straws 🤷🏼

On 5/16/2023 at 8:36 PM, Iceman399 said:

$20 or $50 depending on value (less any discounts)

I like to think it's negligence, not intentional...but really makes you wonder with this policy change.  I think the levy finally broke for me.  

Back today... After paying for walkthrough...pressing takes 11 days.  Grading takes another 9 days, both WK tier.  Mind you, took 5 days to open the box, covered in red and black WK.  Okay, great, they get slammed, I can live with it, although it's not cool for paying a premium.  

What I CANNOT tolerate, is after waiting 25 days for an advertised 5 days total TAT (3 pressing + 2 grading when sent in), is my cherished collectible being returned to me like this.  Like what the actual heck?  It is COVERED in the now standard CGC smudge/scuffs/goo/whateveritis on the sealed bag.

I mean, seriously, how is this acceptable to return to me like this?  

Now my recourse is to rush it back in, lickety split, or else I'm out another $50+2x shipping charges.  Wait 60-90 days and pray that maybe, just maybe it will look better this time.  

I was beyond excited to get this back.  It's like being a kid on Christmas morning again.  Then just absolutely crushed when it has issues.  Unbelievable.  

Pictures are just the worst.  It is all over, 1-3mm spots up and down.  Somehow the back is crystal clear, yay.  

On 5/9/2023 at 1:20 PM, W16227 said:

So - as another pointed out, the red section is a source of major disconnect. The external web page clearly describes DELIVERED.  Not entered into system....  

Nobody externally has good handle on how slammed receiving is or is not on any given day, so having this as an 'out' for posted lead-times being off is problematic when this is used as a tool to encourage paying more for faster service. Most will understand estimating - but even then, the estimates should not be without limits on accuracy and feedback to the customers. 

Likely will fall on deaf ears - but realistically if CGC implemented a couple of simple fixes the system would be a lot more transparent and understandable. 

First -  post your estimated time for receiving. Make sure it is clear that this is part of the estimated lead-times. A weekly update as you stated- this should be a very easy update to make. 

If orders are late ( set a target as like 3-5 days beyond estimates ) - be proactive contact the customer. Once tracking stats - is a very simple calculation to see expected completion date - and where the order sits. Proactively email the customer and keep them in the loop. Way easier to send out 10-20 emails then have to talk to those same people on the phone. Some will still call - but PUSHING the information back to a customer that you are missing targets with a real reason, is significantly better than having frustrated customers PULL or request the information from a customer service rep who likely will not be able to provide a real status.....  

 

 

 

Agree with most of this.  Things happen, and certainly is understandable if they get jammed.  The frustration lies in the lack of consistency in messaging, and being gaslight by CS.  Customer service has stated to me numerous times on the phone that the turnaround includes when it hits the facility to run the package is actually opened.  If that is different internally, it needs to be stated as such.

The issue recently (although has been on and off in the past, but had been way better prior to last 2 months), is that the turnaround estimates are not just off by a little, they are off by a lot.  It's like any other service you pay for, you expect to receive what you paid for as it was promised, when it was promised.  If I go to a restaurant and they take an hour and a half to make my food, I'm probably walking out and not paying, but in this case I have no choice since my valuable collectibles are already out of my hands.  If the restaurant tells me it will take 2 hours to make my food, I just wouldn't have gone there. Likewise, if I had accurate information about how long my submissions would actually take, I might refrain from sending them until later. It's a real kick in the you know where, when you shell out a significant amount of money for higher tier services, and the timelines are being missed wildly, and the only way to get an update is complain on here. 

On top of my standard that is now many days past the estimated turnaround, I also have a walkthrough that is on day 5 since being opened and logged.  This is a two day turnaround, and it's not even in grading yet.

I agree that the issue is twofold. It's information not being accurately conveyed, nor accurately updated.  On the other hand, it's that the service is not being provided as expected.

On top of the aforementioned issues, even taking this long to get completed, I've still had about 70% of my recent submissions come back with quality control issues.  Plastic chunks inside, scuffing, one slab not sealed all the way.  Seeing that mechanical errors are taking two or three months to get back, I didn't even bother.  

I think it's probably reached the point where I don't know how I can justify sending more books in.  Guess that's what they want.  

On 5/8/2023 at 9:05 PM, Iceman399 said:

ya it's definitely annoying especially when packages aren't checked in right away and their TATs state "Turnaround times reflect the estimated number of working days to complete a submission delivered to our facility today. Turnaround times are estimates only and are NOT guaranteed." however we aren't opening boxes for 3 days so your walkthrough (unlimited) that have a 2-day window makes 0 sense .  I just hope CGC surprises me and gets my order done without QC issues and econs ship sooner than their posted TATs

Even after opening them seems pretty backed up.  My WK is at day 4 of Scheduled for Grading.  Standard is at day 15 after opening, still GEI.  

On 4/22/2023 at 6:40 PM, Tcarroll17 said:

So like in my case, it was DELIVERED 4/10, but LOGGED 4/21.  

So based on that it makes me think my submission is at day 11 of the estimated 10 day turnaround time, when in fact the clock didn't start ticking until yesterday based on what you're telling me.  I would tend to believe what you are saying is correct, so just a communication thing on the website.  

This submission still isn't complete...  At CGC over a month.  Logged in since 4/21.  Hasn't progressed past GEI, where it's sat for 5 days.  

Have a walkthrough at 4 days, not even in grading yet.  

On 4/22/2023 at 6:36 PM, Tcarroll17 said:

Mike,

Appreciate you clarifying the turnaround times. I don't take any issue with that, but perhaps they should consider updating the way they present the information then?  The way it reads is that turnaround starts when my package is delivered to the facility. Rather, it should say turnaround time is an estimate from the date the submission is logged into the system.

That might alleviate a lot of people like me bugging you on here 😅

My submission was logged in finally and is scheduled for grading now, appreciate you letting me know that things were a little bit behind, Mike.  

So like in my case, it was DELIVERED 4/10, but LOGGED 4/21.  

So based on that it makes me think my submission is at day 11 of the estimated 10 day turnaround time, when in fact the clock didn't start ticking until yesterday based on what you're telling me.  I would tend to believe what you are saying is correct, so just a communication thing on the website.  

On 4/21/2023 at 1:55 PM, CGC Mike said:

As an employee, I am able to contact people within the company.  Whereas, customers are only able to contact customer service.  I also have the ability to look up the status of a submission.  With this said, I do not have a magic ability to get a package located and opened on demand if it is not long overdue compared to others that have been entered.  We are currently running behind in getting submissions entered into the system.    However, If a package is long overdue in being entered into the system, (compared to others in the same tier that are into the system)  I can ask that people locate the package and have it entered.  One more thing.  TAT's start when the submission has been logged into our system.  

Mike,

Appreciate you clarifying the turnaround times. I don't take any issue with that, but perhaps they should consider updating the way they present the information then?  The way it reads is that turnaround starts when my package is delivered to the facility. Rather, it should say turnaround time is an estimate from the date the submission is logged into the system.

That might alleviate a lot of people like me bugging you on here 😅

My submission was logged in finally and is scheduled for grading now, appreciate you letting me know that things were a little bit behind, Mike.  

On 4/20/2023 at 5:18 PM, asteroid-comix said:

Yeah, they are quoting 2 business days on walkthrough and 3 on express. Based on above, someone escalated to have their package opened and logged after two weeks. So, what is express and walkthrough at, 15 business days?! Follow AFA lead and shut down submissions if you are that far behind. 

Right, at some point it gets insulting.  Even just a courtesy email blast, "hey we got hammered with subs, expect some delays." They can only work so fast, I get it, and I don't want them rushing anyway.  

Wanted to send in an express and walkthrough before the increase, but if it's this bad now, I can't imagine since everyone else is thinking about doing the same 

On 4/20/2023 at 5:05 PM, asteroid-comix said:

CGC should update their turn times. No way walkthrough is right. Sent nearly a hundred books in last week, received Wednesday, and they still have not even been logged in yet. Some were express and some were walkthrough. Should be thinking about end to end experience. Guessing they are starting the turn clock when they open the box and log which is garbage.  

I mean per their own policy it's when it's delivered.  They don't guarantee, but agree if they are laughing behind again they need to update them to reflect accurate turnaround.  It's really frustrating paying a premium for the upper tiers and then they miss the deadlines by a lot.  Have had several express and a walkthrough go well behind the advertised TAT lately.  Luckily, getting some help here from Mike, but I had a standard delivered 10 days ago.  Even in working days I'm at day 8, my package isn't even logged in / opened yet, so no way I'm hitting the 10 day TAT. 

"Turnaround times reflect the estimated number of working days to complete a submission delivered to our facility today. Turnaround times are estimates only and are NOT guaranteed."

On 4/20/2023 at 1:15 PM, CGC Mike said:

I just checked, and it has not been logged in yet.  I will sent a note down to the receiving manager and inquire about this.

Thank you so much for doing that, I really appreciate it!  Normally wouldn't sweat it, but just abnormal that it isn't even logged in yet.  Usually they are really quick.

On 4/19/2023 at 4:11 PM, Tcarroll17 said:

Not a modern but my standard was delivered 9 days ago.  Still not even logged in / scheduled for grading yet.  

CS only offering was "weird, it should have been opened by now, did you put ST on it?  Maybe they missed the letters.'

The box is literally covered in giant black and red STs 🤷🏼

@cgcmike

My order was delivered 4/5/23, standard tier.  Still not logged in yet and getting nervous.  Any insight you can provide would be greatly appreciated.  CS said "it definitely should be opened by now" today when I called.

CGC5537636574

Not a modern but my standard was delivered 9 days ago.  Still not even logged in / scheduled for grading yet.  

CS only offering was "weird, it should have been opened by now, did you put ST on it?  Maybe they missed the letters.'

The box is literally covered in giant black and red STs 🤷🏼

On 4/1/2023 at 8:09 AM, Still Only 20¢ said:

@Tcarroll17, You Are NOT Alone!!  At getting slabs back with scuffs inside OR being frustrated by this!!  I've gotten a number of such slabs back since Summer '22, and I've sent the vast majority back as MEs.

Is that a relatively smooth process sending back as ME?  Do they usually fix the issues?  How long typically to get it back 

On 4/1/2023 at 6:36 AM, Sigur Ros said:

I think it's worth sending back, especially because of the plastic.  Take a Sharpie, make circles on the case, like I did.  So they see what's going on.  The debris is a deal breaker for most people if you try to sell it.  That and the scuffing are just careless, poor quality.  Get it all fixed.

 I appreciate the advice.  I would tend to agree with you.  The plastic debris is unsettling.  I'm just going to constantly stress over it, so I guess should send it back.

In your experience, how long did it take for them to reslab it?  Hate the idea of sending this book back out into space for however long.