brute_nm

On 3/7/2024 at 6:52 PM, CGC Mike said:

Has this been posted?

A strikethrough indicates that the book has been reviewed by CGC. If the book’s grade is determined to be correct, it is given a new certification number at no charge to the customer. If the book’s grade is determined to be incorrect, it is directed to our claims team for further processing.

 All books on this list were removed from the CGC Census. If they were checked, determined to have a correct grade and given a new certification number, then are then re-added to the CGC Census as normal after shipping.

 Any book that has been determined to have an incorrect grade is still at CGC with our claims team and therefore does not appear in the CGC Census. It is possible that some of the claims will be partly dispositioned by re-grading the book and returning it to the customer. If that happens, the book will be given a new certification number and re-added to the CGC Census as normal after shipping.

 

Thanks, this does help some, though I'm still quite confused by some of the things I'm seeing on the list and in the census.

I have condensed my confusion and previous posts into a few specific questions:

• There are multiple books with new grade dates without a strikethrough.  By my last count, there are 77 books with a new grade date (in 2024), yet only 63 strikethroughs.  If they were reviewed/regraded, they should have a strikethrough, according to your FAQ quoted above.
• There is 1 book without a new grade date with a strikethrough.  If it was reviewed/verified, shouldn't it have a new grade date (in 2024)?  Cert# 0233579004
• What does it mean when a book has been regraded in 2024 but the grade is vacated?
• What does it mean when a book has been regraded in 2024 but maintains its former grade?
• If a book has been regraded in 2024 and maintains its former grade, I assume that means it was verified as legit.  If so, why do these books still have the "Contact reportfraud@collectiblesgroup.com if you own or are offered this book" message on their cert# page if they have been deemed legit?
• There are 2 books that are NOT on the CGC list that a) I believe to be fraudulent and b) have new grade dates in 2024.  One had its grade vacated, which I assume means it was deemed fraudulent.  Why aren't these two books on CGC's official list?  Why were they checked even though they aren't on the list?  CGC has made it clear that it will NOT review books that are NOT on the list, so why did these get a special treatment?  Cert#'s 1146675002 and 4329914003
• Can you please add a "last update" date to the list?  This would help immensely those of us tracking strikethroughs, new additions, etc.
• Can we get a simple list of all books that have been checked so far that shows which were deemed legit and which were deemed fraudulent?

On 2/18/2024 at 11:23 AM, sledgehammer said:

I think your assumptions make sense. Here. the grade is still there, the grade date changed to a month ago, and NO SCANS were added to the notes.

there's no way of knowing this is now "verified", or in the process of still being looked at.

Just a ridiculous lack of respect for customers.

ASM  121 yellow

https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/1288075001/

Agreed.  Here are all the books that have new grade "verification" dates (2024).  I have highlighted the ones with NO scan.

You would think that while CGC had these potentially fraudulent books in-hand, they would at least take some new pics as a new 'baseline' reference point going forward.  That way, if anyone questions the book's legitimacy in the future, CGC could at least say "here is what it looked like when we rechecked it in 2024."  If a book was originally graded 10 years ago and has no scans, let's at least start fresh with new scans from today forward.

The non-highlighted ones DO have scans but it's unclear how old the scans are.  This could be another opportunity for improvement for @CGC Mike to discuss: include dates on the scans so we can decipher if the scan is from the original grading date or reholder date or some other time.  This should be adopted for ALL scans moving forward, not just these Hot 350 books.

On 2/17/2024 at 8:18 AM, brute_nm said:

Thanks for the info. In the absence of information, I had to make assumptions.

For the 76 that have been checked, they all have new grade dates in Jan/Feb of this year. Some have grades vacated and some still have grades. My assumption was if the grade was vacated, the book was confirmed fraudulent, which is why the old cert number and grade were invalidated.

So I guess my question is: if yours checked fine and still got a new cert number, what are the 13 books that were regraded in Jan/Feb but have the same grade and same cert number? I'm not saying you know the answer to this, but maybe CGC can shed some light.

The inconsistency and lack of transparency needs to be addressed.

Let me rephrase the question so @CGC Mike can more clearly ask the team: what is the difference between strike-thru, new grade date with blank grade, and new grade date with old grade

I thought strike-thru meant the book has been rechecked but this is not the case.  Here is a list of all the books that have new grade dates (in 2024).  The yellow highlighted books were regraded in 2024 but do NOT have a strike-thru on CGC's list.  There is no consistency with books that have strike-thru and REMOVED grades.  There is no consistency with books that have strike-thru and VERIFIED grades.

Further, what is the protocol for these books?  Are all legit books given new cert numbers?  Do some maintain their old cert number?  Are all fraudulent books left on census but with grades removed?  Are they re-graded to have correct grades and new cert numbers?  What does it mean to have a new grade date but old cert number?  What does it mean when the grade is vacated?  Why does this have to be so complicated   Can we get a simple list from CGC of all books that have been checked so far, which were deemed legit, and which were deemed fraudulent.

We need some consistency and transparency with how these books are being handled to start rebuilding confidence in ALL cert numbers.

On 2/17/2024 at 8:08 AM, Sweet Lou 14 said:

Really appreciate the effort you're putting in.  However, I can tell you that one of the books in your "REMOVED" list is mine.  I submitted it, it was found not to have been tampered with, and I received it back with a new holder and certification number.  So it would be incorrect to say that all "REMOVED" books were fraudulent.

Thanks for the info. In the absence of information, I had to make assumptions.

For the 76 that have been checked, they all have new grade dates in Jan/Feb of this year. Some have grades vacated and some still have grades. My assumption was if the grade was vacated, the book was confirmed fraudulent, which is why the old cert number and grade were invalidated.

So I guess my question is: if yours checked fine and still got a new cert number, what are the 13 books that were regraded in Jan/Feb but have the same grade and same cert number? I'm not saying you know the answer to this, but maybe CGC can shed some light.

The inconsistency and lack of transparency needs to be addressed.

In the absence of any info from CGC, I decided to put together my own summary of where we're at.

CGC has asked customers to send books back for verification.  So have all 350 been checked?  Let's see.  From my count, only 76 out of the 350 (22%) have been checked; 274 (78%) have NOT been checked.  Of those checked:

• 63 had their grades REMOVED, which I assume means they were deemed fraudulent
• 13 maintained their grade, which I assume means they were VERIFIED as legit

Here is a table of the books that had their grades REMOVED:

Here is a table of the books that were VERIFIED and maintained their grade:

A couple oddities... the following cert numbers have a strike-thru on the Hot 350, but they do not have a new grade date, nor have their grades been removed.

• 0233579004
• 0800641009
• 1152116001
• 4036499006

@CGC Mike, are these 4 books legit or not?  If not, why do they have a strike-thru and why is their grade still present?  Why don't they have new grade "verification" dates?

Now, let's go further.  Starting with the initial Hot 350 list, I used the cert numbers to "fill holes."  When there were multiple cert numbers from the same larger submission, I added all the rest of the books from that submission.  In my opinion, any book submitted by this account should be flagged as potentially fradulent, regardless of if it was sent for reholder or not.  Filling holes gets us 216 additional books + the original 350 = 566 total.

Here is a breakdown of these 216 additional books... 22 more ASM 194's, 16 more ASM 238's, 12 more ASM 252's, 36 more ASM 300's.

@CGC Mike, please increase the list to include ALL books submitted by Zanello/CBS account, even non-reholders.  At MINIMUM, the list should be 566 (as shown above), but more likely should be ~2000 (as stated in the legal filing).  @comicwiz has proof of fraudulent books that are NOT on the 350 list, and the legal filing states that Zanello sometimes skipped the reholder process all together.  We MUST verify every book this guy touched.

On 2/9/2024 at 3:51 PM, comicwiz said:

Reading about unlisted books from CGC's 350 impact list being treated "differently" is both perplexing and disappointing. I thought it was time to share at least one I found, applying some details on the retrospective and current comparabiles analysis for books impacted by this "holder tampering." The purpose here is to use this unlisted book as an example of how one might arrive at a valuation suitable for redress and/or compensation.

While the serial number from the ComicVerify badge below is a sample, the data is live, and the screenshot takes you right to the sample appraisal and assessment, with notations, working links do diagrams, etc. Full disclosure, ComicVerify is an online appraisal service I began in March of 2022, along with an appraisal service called ToyVerify. It allowed me to streamline reports, and uses proprietary software I developed which helps accelerates the process of calculating comps for a desired valuation method, as well as offering real-time reporting, accessible in a digital format.

Certification: 0212408029 (NOT ON THE LIST)

Fantastic Four (1961) #48 CGC 5.5

Beginning first with the screenshot of the Cert for posterity:

 

Based on the assessment arrived at, replacement value would be the method of valuation best suited to handle the market fluctuations seen from the time the book was sold in Jan 2019, and the time which the current day, where consumers are being made aware of an alleged incident involving "holder tampering."

Click screenshot below to visit the online appraisal for further details

Additional notes for comparison, review, and posterity:

Sales history, this FF 48 appears 3 times for sale, the order that follows is from the first appearance of this cert to the last

1. 202507080375 | ebay | the.boss | 11/28/2018 | $1,100

Second appearance (This is when we notice a change of the book inside the holder, still keeping with the same certification number)

2. 283298999496 | ebay | briva3 | 12/18/2018 | $1,025

Third attempt is less than a month from the last time this appeared, same seller attemping to sell - as such, this sale is redacted as an outlier, despite it appearing as a valied recorded past sale comparable for FF 48 CGC 5.5.

3.  283323890210 sellerID: briva3 Cert: 0212408029 [1/8/2019] - $1,110

 

 

@CGC Mike sorry to keep hounding on the same point, but: is there a reason why the entire list of Zunello/Comic Book Station's submissions has not been released?  I understand that it will create a bunch of extra verification work for CGC, to now have to verify ~2000 slabs instead of ~350, but better safe than sorry, right?

The Zanello lawsuit states that there were times where CGC did NOT reholder a swapped book before it was sold and @comicwiz has examples of such.  If we know that there are fraudulent slabs in circulation, why not release the list?

Piggy-backing off @ZappedMoose9995's post, I too received some books back today 

I had 2 outstanding invoices with Hero

• #3223 from Sep 2022 (3x books)
• #3311 from Nov 2022 (1x book)

Today I received the 3x books from invoice #3223. 72 weeks later!

I had written these off long ago, especially after the previous Hero thread devolved into fighting and insults. So to have these books back in my possession feels... surreal. Like someone coming back from the dead.

My books were certainly not the 'biggest' books, nor were they the most valuable, but they have significant sentimental value to me. @Sauce Dog, I cannot thank you enough for being the middleman that you didn't have to be, and for treating my books with just as much urgency as the bigger books on the list.

If there's anything I can do to repay the favor, please don't hesitate to ask. Thank you 

Looks like there's a new filing for this case:

Certified Guaranty Co., which provides authentication and grading for comic books, sued customers Ulises Zanello and Bree Riva for trademark infringement, false advertising and breach of contract on Feb. 2 in New York Southern District Court. The suit, brought by Mitchell Silberberg & Knupp, accuses the defendants of obtaining high-value comic books in holders with grade labels from the plaintiff, then swapping the comic books with lower-graded comics and reselling them, thereby deceiving customers into paying inflated prices for incorrectly-graded comic books. The plaintiff filed a similar lawsuit against two former employees on Jan. 31 in Florida Middle District Court. Counsel have not yet appeared for the defendants. The case is 1:24-cv-00797, Certified Guaranty Co. LLC v. Zanello et al.

Defendants: ULISES ZANELLO and BREE RIVA

https://www.law.com/radar/card/pm-52207009-certified-guaranty-company-llc-v-zanello/

https://dockets.justia.com/docket/new-york/nysdce/1:2024cv00797/615000

On 2/2/2024 at 12:52 PM, mosconi said:

Without a clear explanation of their security procedures, it almost feels like books were being stacked on shelves in some hallway or back room with graders coming and going and picking up whatever books they felt like grading that day.  Who knows what type of security checks were in place at that time   

On 1/30/2024 at 5:47 AM, comicwiz said:

Start with going through the project green to blue books - this link compiles all of them with a visual matrix. No one here or on YouTube knows for certain how the swaps happened. I have an idea after going through several hundred books since Decemeber how it's being done. However, there is some variability between the way the swaps are made as well because each scheme exploits the holder and/or process differently. Following each linked example of green to blue, seeing the donor book become a blue, will give you a better sense of what I'm describing above. 

 

On 1/30/2024 at 6:17 AM, comicwiz said:

Then try to work your way through this compendium of posts. It is important to visually go through the way each facet of the summary explains things, from the cert screenshot (some having been revised or removed since these were posted), changes in grade date, when the book first appeared for sale, and then later reappeared changed. These are different from the project green to blue, because these books appear to maintain the same certification with completely different books reappearing after passing through the alleged seller that is linked to this "holder tampering." This should give you some sense of what I mean by variability, and establish a baseline on what CGC has described as "holder tampering." Again, there are a lot of unanswered questions here, no one other than CGC should  be addressing these:

FF 48 CGC 9.0 - Certification: 1012329005

ASM 129 CGC 9.0 - Certification: 1028057001

Avengers 57 CGC 9.4 - Certification: 0966088004

ASM 252 CGC 9.8 - Certification: 1257876006

X-Men 266 CGC 9.8 - Certification: 2120143023

ASM 238 CGC 9.8 - Certification: 3805448018

ASM 238 CGC 9.8 - Certification: 4109535001

Noticing Changes to Grade Date:

Financial Toll & Analysis

Hulk 181 CGC 8.5 - Certification: 1295091001

Hulk 181 CGC 9.0 - Certification: 1055471002

Hulk 181 CGC 9.4 - Certification: 0052830003

Avengers 57 CGC SS 9.6 - Certification: 1478893002

Financial assessment of 17 of the 19 Hulk 181's on the (350) Impacted List

Hulk 181 CGC 9.2 - Certification: 0013796019

Just added links to these incredible resources in the summary on p. 72.  Thanks for all you do, @comicwiz!!