Black_Adam

I thought it was just okay. Maybe a 6 out of 10? Very disappointed there was no Black Adam. And where was the old man with the Winnebago? 

21 minutes ago, oldwhy said:

Just got charged sales tax by Comiclink for the first time. I’m in CA, does this mean they opened an office here or was there a change in tax law?

Wayfair Tax Ruling

Heritage, eBay, ComicConnect and Comiclink were all affected equally by this decision.

2 hours ago, miraclemet said:

do you not think theres also a stigma attached to retoration that will carry over regardless of the color of the label?

Im all for assuming people are stupid and manipulatible, but that requires an big assumption of general stupidity. 

I think comics with CT should take a big hit in grade (it is a flaw) compared to the grade they would be given with a PLOD. My intent with my suggestion wasn't to manipulate or trick collectors into buying CT books with a Blue label - the flaw would be noted on the label as opposed to hidden in grading notes one needs to pay for - my intent was to suggest a system where comics with color touch are treated as books that have been damaged (with a corresponding Universal grade) rather than books that have been improved (with a corresponding Restored grade).

On that note, I will be retiring from this thread. I just wanted to float the suggestion not have it turn into an argument between collectors when, as earlier mentioned, we know changes will not be made (for obvious reasons).

Thanks to all who contributed to the debate!

34 minutes ago, dupont2005 said:

The stigma isn’t attached to the label. It’s attached to the restoration

Purple labels once noted pressing and now pressed comics receive a Blue label. There no longer appears to be any stigma attached to pressing.

31 minutes ago, dupont2005 said:

If color touch allowed blue labeling it would increase value to a huge chunk of restored books. I can see color touch being a service offered by CGC in the future if it were to become acceptable in blue labels.

 

if purple labels are undervalued in your opinion, invest in them. Bid on them. Drive the prices up until they’re valued at what you think they should be.

I'm not sure if you've been reading my posts based on what you have written. Color touch on a comic would lower the grade the comic receives (even with the Blue label). Why would CGC offer a service that would result in a comic receiving a worse grade than it would otherwise?

19 minutes ago, miraclemet said:

The real problem you face is you are trying (in part) to correct what the market is influencing. The seller gets the CT removed because the market values a lower grade un-colortouched over a hgher grade color touched book.

Under your system that drops the grade and keeps it blue, how do you think the market would react to those books that are grade dropped due to color touch? Would the market value the 6.0 (Blue) w/CT noted as much as it would value a 6.0 blue with no CT? I'm betting no. And then you are in the same situation where the MARKET influences what the owner decides to do with his CT book.

I'm hoping that - with both books having Blue same-grade labels - they will choose the comic that presents better.

The problem now is the stigma attached to a Purple label when compared to a Blue.

4 minutes ago, VintageComics said:

I'm not sure if you are aware or not, but we discussed this sort of thing in great detail maybe 12-13 years ago on here.

CGC wanted to introduce a Blue label right across the board. It co-incided with their introduction of their in house restoration and removal service.

The boards shut it down and it never made it off the ground.

Since then, we've had detailed discussions on the topic.

Things got pretty heated on here. There was lots of name calling and accusations.

I have always felt that labeling color touch (CLEARLY so that nobody can miss it) while putting a book in a blue label would go a long way to helping educate people about books and values while reducing the amount of destruction done to books.

The recent change to having Conserved AND Restored labels was a small step in that direction.

The main barrier is that too many people don't care what perception is, values are affected or anything else. They only want color touched books clearly segregated into Purple labels and nothing else.

It's a great discussion, but nothing is every going to change IMO.

 

I wasn't even aware that these Boards existed 12-13 years ago...

And thanks for the insight, I figured as much but was just frustrated by the current system (of resto removal) and wanted to throw in my own 

5 minutes ago, LordRahl said:

No. No it isn't. If you tear it off, it just looks like a torn up book. If you trim it carefully with a knife, you are now trying to make it look like it did when it came off the press. I can't tell if you honestly can't see this very fundamental difference or you're being intentionally obtuse because reality doesn't fit your view.

If I have a (PLOD) comic with a spine crease that has been carefully color touched with a straight black line (makes it look like it came right off the press) and I draw a black line vertically through it so that it now looks like someone drew a black cross on the cover (now it is just a marked-up book) does that mean the comic is no longer restored and gets a Blue label?

I know this thread is like shooting arrows at the clouds, but this would be the grading system for CT I envision:

An unscrupulous comic store guy has a comic with a color-breaking corner crease. In its current state it is a 7.0 

He takes a black marker and color touches the crease, now the comic looks like a 9.0

He sells the book to an unsuspecting customer and the CT goes unnoticed. Customer submits the comic for grading and it comes back as a 9.0 (PLOD).

Customer curses comic store guy (who has vanished) and sends the comic back to have the CT removed. The corner is cut away (there was bleed through) and the book comes back as a 6.0 (Blue).

Under my system the grader would have caught the CT, deducted a full grade for it from the otherwise 7.0 comic, and sent the book back as a 6.0 (Blue).

Exact same result except it does not further damage the comic and saves the duped customer additional pain in the form of extra resto removal/grading/shipping fees.

8 minutes ago, dupont2005 said:

The label doesn’t have a massive affect, the color touch does. That’s what happens when you disclose color touch. What amount of restoration is acceptable in a non restored label? I’d say none. Just means cheaper comics for those who like them. But by allowing any level of restoration in a blue label you will see restoration become exactly as common as pressing, and it’s fairly safe to assume anything slabbed in at least the past five years has been pressed

No amount of restoration would be 'allowed' in a Blue label - the book would get hammered - it just wouldn't get a Purple label (which ironically would give the color-touched comic a higher grade).

I don't think this compares to pressing which - when present - is almost always rewarded with a higher grade by CGC (who freely offer the service).

1 minute ago, grebal said:

You're English?!

 

Sorry, Marwood, low hanging fruit.

Canadian. Close enough.

9 minutes ago, Ride the Tiger said:

I agree with th OPs suggestion. However. It would have a really negative effect on many comic collectors who currently have many PLODs sitting in their collection. Imagine word of this getting out. People would be buying up PLODs like crazy so they could resubmit them for a blue label. And imagine how pissed all those sellers would be after finding out they just gave their books away. I think it's way too late in the game to make a major change like this. But I do believe it should have been like that from the git go.

Ironically, I believe that is exactly what is happening in the current market. People are buying up all the PLODS and sending them in for restoration removal surgery in hopes of potential profit when that Purple header turns Blue.

My reasoning behind this entire thread is this: restored books are currently being submitted to CGC and coming back with Blue labels (after being cut, scraped, defaced). If this is already the case, why can't the books simply be downgraded accordingly, given the Blue label with the CT notation and returned unmutilated. 

23 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

I do understand your observations here; there are times the removal of restoration ends up looking worse than the actual restoration. I don't care much for that, either. However, I seriously doubt that CCS will change their position on this, because we do live in a society where the business side of things tends to influence most (if not all) of the decisions that are made. And CCS is simply offering another service to their customers. Moreover, I believe this decision rests solely with the owner of the book at that time. If they feel they'll be happier (or wealthier) by having the restoration removed, so be it. In most cases I'd advise against it, but people can ultimately do whatever they want if it's their personal property.

As far as the tools of the trade, if you've ever had your teeth cleaned at the dentist's office, you're well on your way to understanding the type of instruments that are often used for resto removal...     

I prefer to save any money I would have wasted having my teeth cleaned so I can buy more comics...

1 hour ago, Fan Boy said:

Let me get that right ... are you saying that CGC use scissors to cut away the “restored” part of the comic? Especially the tear seals? 

 

I'm not sure the tool they used was even that advanced. On the one comic I sent in to have two minor tear seals removed from the back cover (I thought they would use some sort of solvent) they appear to have simply torn away the offending areas. Presto! Resto removed. As I said earlier, sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

But I don't want to create the impression this is something new. This is how restoration "removal" has apparently always worked. I found this on the old Classics Incorporated site:

Many times removal involves defacement of the comic. Even when removing slight restoration, it is sometimes necessary to scrape, dig, cut, and obliterate parts of the comic to achieve an unrestored grade. This is especially true for removing amateur restoration, such as glue, and color touch that has bled through the paper. 

1 hour ago, LordRahl said:

Blue labeling CT and downgrading for it is a terrible idea. Treating removed CT as resto is equally terrible. Removed CT is damage, pure and simple. Just like someone accidentally tearing off a corner or bugs chewing up a book is damage. Both intentional and unintentional damage are downgraded for equally. You are asking CGC to determine the intent of damage and then base whether they call it resto or not on their assessment of intent. That's just ridiculous in my mind.

The problem isn't CGC's stance on CT. The problem is that the market feels that an unrestored 3.0 is worth more than a 6.0 with slight CT. That's not CGC's problem to solve. 

Isn't that what CGC does every time they grade a comic? If they see a black felt mark over a black area of the comic it is color touch (purple label). If they see a black felt mark over a green area it is just a wayward pen stroke (blue label). They have made the resto call based solely on a belief of intent.

2 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

It is why with many golden age books, I have no problem picking up a book with a small amount of color touch.  If no one else wants to touch it, let that be their thing and keep the price down.

Eventually a nice CT copy of Superman 14 will be mine. 

And would you have the restoration removed?

6 minutes ago, Rip said:

This thread comes to mind. 

 

Af 15

The DD1 CGC 9.2 in the quoted thread is a great example of what I'm concerned about: the microscopic CT and the flaw it was intended to mask wasn't even significant enough to affect the grade (when its label changed from Purple to Blue it still remained a 9.2 - hey, that rhymes!) but it still received the Purple Label of Death.

Here's another example (borrowed from eBay). With a comic in this grade a minor amount of color touch is the least of your problems. A Blue label in the exact same grade with a CT note would have been sufficient. I would hate to see this poor comic punished any further by some future owner hoping to have the "restoration" fixed.

3 minutes ago, BlowUpTheMoon said:

Before and after scans of color touch removal:

  Hide contents

 

 Looks like they took a grinder to it.

Do you really want to move a bunch of musty ECs with their big golden-age size covers and all those extra pages? That's a lot of additional weight to truck 2,000 miles - save yourself some grief Ed and unload them all here. 

In the meantime...GLWTS!

Another example is this 9.8 PLOD. Instead of giving it an (albeit Purple) 9.8 grade I would treat it as if the color break and the black pen mark were both noted flaws - driving this down into the Blue 8.5 - 9.0 range (with the color touch notation remaining on the label). Just as punishing as the Purple label but hopefully eliminating any temptation to mutilate this otherwise beautiful comic in an attempt to remove the PLOD stigma now associated with it.

8 minutes ago, thunsicker said:

So under this proposal would the JIM shown above get a blue label 5.0 (maybe what the comic was before the color touch) or a 3.0 (what they estimate the grade would be if the color touch was removed)?  And how are they to estimate either way?

I propose the graders when making a list of flaws on the comic (I'm assuming that is how they determine a grade) list the color-breaking crease as if it wasn't masked by CT and the black felt used for the CT as two flaws. For me this would lower the grade to a Blue 5.0 vs the PLOD 6.0 with a clear note on the label indicating the color touch (as they do with tape).

If this was already a 3.0 with CT I wouldn't deduct the grade at all for the crease or the pen mark (both common in this grade). I would just note the color touch on the label.

Just ask @427Impaler what he thought of the JIM 85 that was "fixed" for him. It went from being an attractive 6.0 with a small amount of CT on one corner (I believe comics in this grade are allowed to have pen marks on the cover) to a hideous 3.0

1 minute ago, Pirate said:

@greggy buys all the bronze in Vancouver 

That's for sure, even when I was hunting for back issues at The Comicshop on 4th Ave. more than thirty years ago (back then we called Bronze moderns) he was still getting there before me. Nothing has changed.