wiparker824

they released this for Miles Morales legacy numbering a few years back when they were on 234 should explain all of the series more or less included. It’s essentially an Ultimate Spider-Man numbering rather than a Miles Morales numbering. Does Marvel’s legacy numbering always make sense? No it does not. But they do get to squeeze a little more juice out of the #300 anniversary issue anyways. 

On 2/20/2024 at 6:23 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

In short it's good to hear people around for the first stuff explain the fallout process, but I would agree that in itself doesn't build trust back over night.

If I was cgc I wouldn't think that way, for now. Thread encouraged to have at it, might help, so I don't think the minimizing helps or helps justify, that makes CGC look like any old slum corporation and it's hard to hear posts make that sound like a positive thing 😂

So ya nothing new. CGC doesn't stink to high heaven yet, and is attempting to care for collectors or for those at least that aren't skeptic.

I go out on a limb here hoping CGC makes good on their word, as long as CGC is out there. As for the posts to minimize or drudge speculation, that isn't up for my judgement now, not mine or any other singular entity to say 💯. Again imo.

No harm, in posting, just not a lot of people crying wolf, more people being hardened by it happening before and not affecting the bottom line. That is Stone Cold can I get a heck ya!  @Buzzetta @onlyweaknesskryptonite

Oh no, I’m definitely not minimizing or attempting to minimize with what I said… my point was more that to me what is now being made public (+- a few details) has been known even before the past few weeks by most that were tuned in. Just now things are becoming more public with the lawsuit. Somehow we are still in the same place in terms of a lot of the questions many of us had been asking… even the simple ones like why aren’t they providing the full list of all books submitted by the parties at hand even those they themselves don’t feel are suspicious, and what is this haphazard method they have for crossing items of the list? 
 

so like I said, felt like I missed a lot, then read everything and caught myself back up and realized I really didn’t. 

I’ve been away from this thread and CGC news for a few weeks dealing with some real life stuff… and somehow feel like I’ve missed a lot while also feeling like I’ve missed nothing during that time. And that comes after reading the lawsuit, this thread and Steve’s letter. I guess it’s cool we can now say the names and don’t have to talk in codes anymore. That’s something I guess. 

On 1/26/2024 at 6:57 AM, Stefan_W said:

I think context is everything here. When @Lightning55 said that 90%+ of people will not be directly impacted by this scam he is completely correct, and when you point out it disproportionately impacts collectors with very expensive books you are pointing out a very similar thing. From my perspective the scam is absolutely important and I appreciate the hard work done by those who are continuing to dig into it, but it has zero impact on the way I collect, buy, and grade books. The books I send myself are clear, and the slabs I buy are typically crack and re-sub candidates (so 9.0-9.4 books I am hoping to get to 9.6/9.8). 

Further context is that a small number of people on the boards are dominating this thread with what basically amounts to "I hate CGC" and "why would anyone ever grade books again." The good and informative parts to this thread are people like @comicwiz and others who are bringing new potentially tampered with slabs to light to inform the community. The exhausting part of this thread are sifting through all of the responses I referred to in the first part of this paragraph because, although people have the right to spew endlessly and say the same thing again and again, not a single one of them adds anything of value to the discussion. It is worse for people like me who don't like to use the ignore feature because I am fully aware that the same person may add something of big value to another discussion along the way.  

I agree with a lot this but will say the same way the “I hate CGC” comments don’t add anything of value is the same way the “nothing to see here” comments don’t add any value. If a person feels this scam doesn’t impact them in any way, that’s fine, but I’m not sure what posting that repeatedly in this thread is adding to the discussion. Especially since we’re almost 400 pages and a month in and some have been doing that since the beginning. The “exhausting” part of this to me is reading thru those, especially when the “I hate CGC” and the “nothing to see here” crowds start feeding off each other. All are welcome to say what they want, but for me it’s just added noise at this point.

On 1/25/2024 at 11:51 PM, agamoto said:

Did somebody say McMens Rea?

Lol. "Trust in CGC a standard amongst Collectors."

Ok, let me see if I've got this one straight... Grailz puts the original 9.2 comic, graded on 1/24/2023, up on their facebook/Instagram May 4th, 2023 for $1695. I don't do Insta, was it claimed by anyone? Whether or not, the book winds up selling on eBay on July 1st, 2023 for a fixed price of $1300, and it appears the ad is using the same pictures in the ad that Grailz used on insta back in May. I can't tell on worthpoint or terapeak who the seller or the buyer is, but the ad descrption for the 9.2 doesn't match the other ads we've seen throughout the history of the Mark's Jeweler Fooler's listings. Then, in just over a month, the book gets sent to CGC for relabel/reholder, winds up as a 9.8, and it's back for sale, right back at Grailz for $25K in early August. How about that. 

At the risk of Swagglehaus dismissing one of my posts as a Pepe Silvia rant, I'm going to say again that it's a real shame CGC's private eyes, Kroll, can't simply subpoena instagram and ebay to show who was trading and communicating over this book, and many others books, or how much money exchanged hands, if any. Just some of the interesting stuff law enforcement investigators would be able to do, like where and when the books were shipped around, who touched them at CGC, who owns the phone the pics were taken with and where they were taken when uploaded etc. 

Sounds about right. In terms of if the 9.2 or the 9.8 were ever claimed on insta only Grailz would know that. They instruct buyers to claim either in comments or DM but I think most conduct negotiating in DM’s. Neither book has a public claim comment or a public sold comment. 

On 12/24/2023 at 7:37 AM, comicwiz said:

Nice job @agamoto! I juxtaposed the two for better comparison, and include the cert data as well as sales dates:

9.2 - 4134002001 was graded on 1/24/2023 and sold on eBay July 1, 2023 for $1450 (Newsstand, MJ insert)

9.8 - 4152956002 was graded 11/09/2022 and sold on eBay Dec 16 2022 $4995 (Newsstand, MJ insert)

9.2 Certification number:

9.8 Certification number:

 

Not sure if the loop was ever closed on this one... I may have drifted in and out for a couple hundred pages so I apologize if this is a rehash, but this book post swap was listed for sale by Grailz like many of the other books on this list for consignment on 8/6/23. I noticed it while I was digging thru their posts. They listed it for 25k. Not sure if they ever got that price... but that's a 5 figure scam regardless. This is more to my earlier point that I am of the belief most of the scammers latest (2023) dirty work happened thru backchannels on IG where things aren't tracked as easily by GPA/eBay. 

Note: The donor book you provided was also listed on Grailz as well on 3/17/23.

On 1/25/2024 at 4:08 PM, comicwiz said:

why I was screenshoting the certs - we need to keep a reference before they get revised or removed.

I’ve been collecting images of screenshots… not sure it will matter but also the place where the swap was sold thru consignment (Grailz) has a lot of the books on the list and has posted they are intentionally leaving the sold books up for transparency which I hope they do. I looked thru the last 6 months of their books skimming thru and counted 35 of the 350 books (10%) on this list on Grailz posts but there are likely more that I missed. This one was just one that I found that was particularly peculiar… and it wasn’t dissimilar to the book that’s started the whole thing (252 MJI also popped up on Grailz). I am wondering if the scammer moved to IG consignment sales for more of their recent scams to keep listings out of eBay/GPA trackability.

On 1/25/2024 at 3:54 PM, Nick Furious said:

Was this book on the recall list?  

Yep

On 1/25/2024 at 3:14 PM, comicjel said:

Also curious why the scammer would go to the trouble of getting the "2nd" reholder just to get the newsstand notation?? - can't imagine that he needed that notation to sell it at the newsstand price.

After looking thru the comments on Grailz post (middle picture) I saw “SOLD!” and I see an account stating claim. So, very likely it sold and the last image is actually the unfortunate buyer who wanted to reholder to a X-men label since a Spidey custom label made no sense.

On 1/24/2024 at 6:33 PM, comicwiz said:

2) Certification: 3805448018 - Amazing Spider-Man, The (1963) #238 CGC 9.8
Cert: 3805448018 [10/19/2022] - $3,650
↳
Cert: 3805448018 | 8/29/2022 | $2,700

Beginning first with cert look-up for posterity:

First appeared with sale from 8/29/2022 | $2,700

Different book inside (changed from Direct to Newsstand) is noticed with a reappearance sale on 10/19/2022] - $3,650

Probably bought 2 green label or raw 238’s missing tattooz insert same day as initial buy, swapped into the 9.8 blue label books and subbed both on same day as reholders with custom labels, got em back same day, put them up on eBay together and sold together again. Also resubbed the legit books likely on another submission. 

2 green label + 2 blue label become 4 blue label 9.8’s. This is what they really meant when they said “Hard work has already been done for you”. 

On 1/24/2024 at 5:11 PM, IceHole said:

Listen, my lil bit of paranoia is up there, so I sees this book on eBay...is it one of the swaps to get the newsstand label from cgc on an ”obvious to me" direct edition or an honest mistake by cgc.  If the later, cgc how'd you miss this if your biz is comics.  Cuz now you can write off all your mistakes to a scammer.  I mean, I have to trust the label if I'm not an informed collector.

This is a recently graded book you can see the scans on CGC thru verify tool, it’s not swapped out, just CGC QC issues - which is bad, but not related to this scam. 

On 1/24/2024 at 2:04 PM, comicjel said:

Looks like the inner well has not changed - which implies to me that they are just making sure that the book is the same as when originally graded (which I assume they are determining from original scan).

BTW... Nice book!!

Not my book but yeah, I agree it is a nice one. And yeah they seem to be claiming the verification is happening before even opening the slabs… which to me says they are either sorcerers or they have images of all these books every time they get sent to them even ones prior to the scans becoming publicly available.

On 1/24/2024 at 8:43 AM, comicwiz said:

They're calling it in with the reportfraud@ email in red notation:

That note doesn’t seem to mean anything. We are still seeing it on every book in the list, even books other board members have come in here saying they’ve had the book cleared by CGC like this one:

Some consistency would be nice. 

On 1/23/2024 at 8:24 PM, 360flip said:

precodemonster on insta has a tampered asm 238 that he sent in. Looks like still waiting for compensation.

https://www.instagram.com/p/C2SsF9hP8EA/?ref=badge” class%3D“ig-b- ig-b-v-24&hl=en

isn’t that this book?

hard to make out the cert number in the IG photo but it does look like that book, which has been crossed off the list. Also in the comments they said they got it off CL in Sept which does indeed line up with the CL sale for that cert:

https://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?id=1715892

If it’s crossed off and they’re being compensated does this mean CGC’s just crossing off all books returned to them? Regardless of if they’re verified as legit or not?

Does look like these books are getting new certs as they said but you can still look up both the old and the new in the verify tool which is not what they said, not sure if that’s going to be temporary or permanent. Here’s the ASM 1 8.0 SS new and old cert:

https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/1341998001/

https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/4372423001/

The book is also up for sale in upcoming CL auction. 

On 1/23/2024 at 8:59 AM, paqart said:

The option you labeled 1 is what CGC is offering right now, as I understand it. The other option circumvents CGC completely, as an inadequate solution. The way it's presented atm, as I understand it, is this:

1) You paid $20k at the top of the market, comic is now worth $10k. CGC gives you $10k and keeps the comic.

2) You paid $20k at the top of the market, comic is now worth $10k. You keep the comic, and the taint attached to the cert number, so it is now unsellable.

I'm suggesting the following two options for this scenario:

3) You paid $20k at the top of the market, comic is now worth $10k. You go through the police/FBI/seller/seller's agent (eBay/CL/etc) to get full reimbursement for purchase price.

4) You spent $20k for a 9.8 MJI ASM 238. CGC finds another copy, legit, and replaces your comic with the one they find that is a legit 9.8 ASM 238 with MJI, no matter what it costs them to obtain it. Personally, I think this is the best option, not selling the comic to CGC. It puts the onus on them to give the collector what they bought.

Option 4 presents a conflict of interest for them. If they start sourcing books that are rare like ASM 238 9.8 MJI like you said they are now inserting themselves into a very small market. It’s not an easy book to find, unless you find a raw 9.6 and it’s close enough and you own the grading company so you can just throw it into a 9.8 holder to get you out of the problem… which is one reason I’d not want that if I owned one of these books. Not to mention not all books particularly in the non-9.8 grade range are the same to a collector. If you’re someone who is buying a IH181 in a 9.0 you may have flaws you prefer in that grade, and flaws you don’t want to see. If you let CGC pick the book they will get whatever one they can find for the lowest amount. Similarly the SS books on this list were often signed on the back, already hard to find books, not going to be easy or even possible to source the same book signed on the back by creators who are no longer living.

This same reasoning is why I think just getting a check for FMV is problematic, because in many cases even if you get the check to buy a replacement you may not be able to find one on the market. Sure if it’s just a direct edition ASM 300 you will be able to but some of these books on here just aren’t out there for sale constantly to just get a replacement right away. 

What I said many pages ago would be the best option is for CGC to pay the current FMV OR the sale price the current owner paid (if you can provide receipt) - whichever is higher. This would give the current owner the maximum amount regardless of if the book has went up or down since they bought it. But I don’t think that’s realistically going to happen. 

The other question I have I don’t believe has been brought up around FMV is are they going to estimate the FMV as of mid-December 2023 when the scam was discovered or when they receive your book? Because there will be some people who don’t follow every news story from CGC and don’t realize their book is on this list until let’s say 3 years from now when they send it to an auction house and are notified. Then what? Let’s say the FMV at that time is 50% less than today? What if it’s 50% more? Is CGC going to pay out the FMV at the time they receive the books indefinitely? Because if they are, even if you know your book is on the list you could in theory just hold it until the FMV hits whatever value you’re waiting on to sell if you want to roll the dice.

We are now hearing from some people who are getting their books sent back to them as clean books, which is great. I’ll be interested to hear from those that went thru the FMV process though. 

On 1/23/2024 at 6:54 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

How have sales been on ASM 238?

Only 1 sold so far in 2024 (tracked by GPA) and it was above the 90 day average. I think with that book, others like 252 I’m looking to see where the more rare versions land… like the Canadian Price Variant for 238 and the MJI for 252. The last sales of these versions of these books were dominated by books from the scammer. So will be interesting to see where those go with his books out of the picture. Could even go up higher if those books are out of the market and there’s all of the sudden a bunch of people with checks from CGC looking to replace them. 

On 1/23/2024 at 6:36 AM, lostboys said:

 

 

 

Does anyone else find it odd that no one is mentioning UF4 or TWD1...these books were pretty damn hot during the pandemic.

 

 

 

There is a copy of TWD1 on the list. Just not the volume compared to the Spidey books. Seemed like the scammer preferred copper or older particularly if the book had some sort of extra rare version like newsstand, MJI, MVS intact, Tattooz intact, etc.

On 1/23/2024 at 5:08 AM, sledgehammer said:

You might want to take a look at what a horror show the cover of the book that sold on January 16th before you judge. It's a HORRIBLE miscut.

This WHITE page newsstand sale was a big collapse from what the vast majority of sales on GPA were last year.

How can we value any data, when a 9.8 reported $1,860 newsstand sale last July 29th, was this book, graded last year, with no mention of it being a newsstand in the notes?

https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/4235257002/ 

Yeah I think in general when you own over 10% of the market on 9.8 you have the ability to manipulate the market a bit so looking back at the 12M average and lows that include this person’s books is already problematic. I did see that sale from last July and thought the same. I also looked up the low for the direct in the past few years which was $2,000 sold on July 16 of 2023 and I can see why the seller took 2,000 for it. It wasn’t on the list but it does look like one of the uglier 9.8’s I’ve seen, not white pages and a piece of the corner is torn and dangling off: https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/4253803001/

In any case, we will see if this book in 9.8 flattens out or continues downward. 

On 1/23/2024 at 4:23 AM, NewWorldOrder said:

Unless they changed their policy in the last month or so I assumed you can still save on CL’s 3% buyer premium if you pay by check.

The fact this book even sells for $1k still amazes me in any CGC grade.

Historically over a long period of time all the ASM keys keep going up even the common ones from 1980 to now.  Everyone likes to compare prices to COVID, but that isnt what most should look at over the long haul.  Trends over 5+ years or more is better.  Of course I am assuming you point is the reholder scam might be effecting these prices, but I just think its just a common book going for what t should be going for in 2024.  IMO if the reholder scam really hurt this book the prices I feel auction final sales would be 20-30% lower than that.

I’m not comparing to Covid prices, that’s why I presented the 90 day averages and the last sale price. If I was comparing to Covid prices these would be insanely low since these books were hitting $5,800 in the Covid peak. But again I wasn’t, and there’s no point in doing that so I’m not sure why you’re bringing that up. 

And also $2100 is 20-30% lower than the 90 day average and the last sale. Not sure why it needs to be an additional 20-30% lower than that but okay. I’m guessing if the next one hits that you’ll move the goalposts again. 

On 1/22/2024 at 7:37 PM, DC# said:

the ASM 300 9.8 sold for $3300 which is a bit above last sale and over $200 higher than 90 day.    

Yeah I was watching that one as well. Theres another ASM 300 going after midnight for some reason too, we will see where that one ends up but it appears those are doing better than the 194’s did this auction. 

On 1/22/2024 at 6:07 PM, agamoto said:

Well, if you ask 9.9Newstand, he'll tell you how the person who sold the dirty 252 MJ Variant told him of his connections with higher-ups at CGC regarding how they determined together there are 7 MJ copies of X-Men 266.

But it's ok, Matt Nelson also told 9.9 that no one internally at CGC is connected to this scam, and they've got Kroll investigators hot on the case, so it's all good.

 

I do believe to pull off these types of scams some of them would require some open lines of communication with CGC. Now, CGC’s customer service is not awful, you can actually talk to people when you email/call so this in it of itself isn’t a difficult task. But getting a non MJI book changed to an MJI is not a standard sub or even a standard reholder, and likely required some communication. Multiply that by many many times over for many years and you begin to have quite the relationship built up between the parties, which is why I’m sure this individual was very confident in their scheme. Due to this level of communication it seems hard to believe when CGC was told the name of the individual they said “What? Who is that?”. They very likely knew exactly who this was once it was revealed due to the high volume of submissions plus the required communication that would have had to take place for this scheme to work. This doesn’t necessarily mean someone in CGC was involved, but it doesn’t exactly rule it out either.

Just my opinion of course, which means nothing, since Kroll is in here watching.