Jaydogrules

I agree. If anyone wants to sell me their high grade non-key Cerebus 1, please let me know. IH 181 I have and can get more copies of whenever I want. Cerebus 1, not so much. And all the money in the world won't conjur up a 9.8, if none truly exist in that grade. A shame, too. Sim's file copies yielded many ultra high grade early copies...but no #1s above 9.4. If....IF...a 9.8 Cerebus #1 showed up, I don't think $30-$40K would be out of the question. ....and in the real world the one single sale of that one single book in that one single grade STILL would not make cerebus more "valuable" than hulk 181. -J. Only in fantasy land, where documented sales figures don't matter. It's easily possible that...you know, actually comparing grade for grade...that a Cerebus #1 in 9.8 would sell for more than Hulk #181 in 9.8 ever has. Your real issue is that Overstreet didn't do a "most popular" list, which is what you want. The OPG is a price guide, not a popularity guide. Their job is to report prices, not rank characters according to popularity. Wanting the OPG to do a popularity list isn't rational. Untrue. And yet you want to use a hypothetical "single highest graded" copy of cerebus 1 to rationalize its misguided positioning on overstreet's flawed list but ignore the real world sale of hulk 181's "single highest graded" copy for $150k, which was four years ago, and could just as likely be over $200k if it happened today. Makes no sense. Nor does it make sense that you disregard the fact that cerebus sells at about one-half hulk 181 does in an 8.5, (and even lower percentages on down the grading scale) even though there are literally only 6 blue label copies graded higher, while there are hundreds and hundreds hulk 181's graded higher. Nor does it make sense that Overstreet (and you apparently) think that the same 5 or 6 copies of cerebus 1 that have exchanged hands over the last 15 years or so over a 9.0 grade, are in any way, shape or form an appropriate way to determine the actual "value" of the book as compared to the thousands of sales of hulk 181 that have occurred over the same amount of time. Nor does it make sense that you could possibly believe this book is more "valuable" than hulk 181 in real life simply because those five or six highest graded examples of cerebus 1 in a whopping two grade and one or two sale comparison have sold for more than hulk 181's in comparable grade. How convenient it is for cerebus 1 that Overstreet has decided to compare books in that one grade that he does. So yes, in the land of Overstreet at least, cerebus 1 is a mega key that's more "valuable" than hulk 181. But in the real world it's a small niche indy book from the 70's with a low print run, and few high grade copies on the census that get a few specialty book collectors excited when they come to market. Definitely not in hulk 181's league, "value"-wise or otherwise, but certainly in a league of its own. And no, "price variant" books shouldn't be on that list either. -J.

I agree. If anyone wants to sell me their high grade non-key Cerebus 1, please let me know. IH 181 I have and can get more copies of whenever I want. Cerebus 1, not so much. And all the money in the world won't conjur up a 9.8, if none truly exist in that grade. A shame, too. Sim's file copies yielded many ultra high grade early copies...but no #1s above 9.4. If....IF...a 9.8 Cerebus #1 showed up, I don't think $30-$40K would be out of the question. ....and in the real world the one single sale of that one single book in that one single grade STILL would not make cerebus more "valuable" than hulk 181. -J.

You can't be serious here......are you really saying that the Overstreet valuations should be based upon relative rankings of graded copies of a particular book. Would anybody be able to figure out the real world valuations from the guide if this were the case. BTW: Did you notice that OS has Hulk 181 valued substantially higher than Cerebus 1 in all condition grades except for the 9.2 top of valuation which is the one used for their Top 10 list. No, I'm saying that one should be careful to conclude that the value of a book at a specific grade will tell the whole story. What part of the story is it not telling? You can't figure that out yourself? Oh, no, I'm clearly a numbskull, and need these things carefully explained, or they go right over my head. Please, by all means, explain away! No, it's okay. You not a numbskull and you don't need someone like me to explain it to you. RMA you're not a numbskull and I actually think you're just entertaining yourself in this thread at this point. I'm fairly certain that you understand quite well that the OP's point that Overstreet comparing books in only one grade leads to one or two anomalous sales (ie Cerebus in a 9.2) queering the list and giving a completely false impression (ie that Cerebus is a more "valuable" BA book than Hulk 181, when it obviously is not by a mile). -J.

BJ; You have presented us with the perfect scenario and definitive argument here for both cases which will clear up this issue once and for all. (thumbs u If there was only 1 single highest graded Hulk 181 and Cerebus 1 at CGC 9.9 and I was given no other copies to buy, I would most definitely without a doubt pay more for the Hulk 181. This is because in your particular imaginery world, the supply for both is equal, so the money would definitely go for the Hulk 181 since we all know that the demand for this book far exceeds the demand for Cerebus 1. Now let's change it to a much more realistic world scenario. Suppose you are at a convention and you see both a CGC 9.2 copy of Hulk 181 and also a CGC 9.2 copy of Cerebus 1, but only have enough money for just one of them. Which one would you buy? Without a doubt and faster than the Flash, one hand would be reaching for my wallet while my other hand would be reaching for the Cerebus 1. Do you know why.....because you might not see another one in similar condition for years to come and after travelling to countless cons. The Hulk 181.....not a problem as it'll probably show up at the next con the following weekend or on any number of eBay websites or auction listings if you care to look, even at higher grades than CGC 9.2. My gawd, and as financially irresponsible and unbelieveable as it may sound, I would even be willing to pay more for a Cerebus 1 Over a Hulk 1 in this particular condition. With respect to the OS price guide, you should remember that they are not there to report on valuations for single highest CGC 9.9 copies of a book. Their highest valuation listing is only for 9.2 NM- books, and when you are down in this shallow end of the pool, the Cerebus 1 clearly wins out over the Hulk 181. BTW: When did the Overstreet Top 100 and Top 10 rankings become a popularity ranking as opposed to a valuation ranking? You know why I used the hypothetical scenario. I specifically stayed away from these books in the 9.2 range since Hulk 181 is readily available at higher grades. In the realistic world, the better example to use is a choice between the highest graded Hulk 181 and Cerebus 1. This is fair since Overstreet decided to compare both books at the 9.2 range, especially when one of them had a print run that would easily make it noticeable to a collector of underground comics while the other, a popular mainstream book, is abundant at this grade. If you had a choice between either for your collection, you would take the Cerebus? And yes, Overstreet is about valuation, but classifying lower print black and white independents as mainstream books and saying that the former is more valuable than the later because someone paid much more for it doesn't tell the whole story. 9.2 is the second highest grade for Cerebus 1. The book will demand more money than a 9.2 Hulk 181. Sales for second highest graded Cerebus 1 should be compared to those of the second highest graded Hulk 181s since all things are not equal in the real world. This. Or compare them both in their respective highest grades. The highest graded cerebus apparently sold for $9k. The highest grade hulk 181 sold for $150k. If Overstreet is seriously only comparing their relative "values" in just one grade and using that to create his list, then that's just silly and makes the list meaningless. If anything he should compile the list based on the weighted values across all grades. -J.

Yep, Jdog might be setting himself up for a classic RMA disciplining. I'm always up for a good RMA tongue lashing. I actually find him to be one of the most learned posters on these boards. -J.

Evidently overstreet says what the OP states in his subject line. But there's at least two grades where hulk 181 is about 2X the "value" of cerebus. Let the qualifiers commence! -J.

What was that you were saying again, Overstreet? http://www.ebay.com/itm/CEREBUS-1-CGC-8-5-2000-PRINT-RUN-SUPER-RARE-IN-THIS-CONDITION-HTF-/251567379955?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item3a929595f3 http://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-1st-app-Wolverine-CGC-8-5-VF-Marvel-Comics-1974-/360905693614?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5407a7d9ae http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cerebus-1-1977-CGC-8-0-ow-w-1st-Cerebus-appearance-by-Dave-Sim-NO-RESERVE-/171397561372?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item27e8173c1c http://www.ebay.com/itm/Incredible-Hulk-181-CGC-8-0-1st-Full-Wolverine-Marvel-Bronze-Age-Comic-Avengers-/201137932086?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item2ed4c14736 -J.

And you would be incorrect. You can argue with the OPG, which is fine. You cannot argue with sales data. Sale: Cerebus #1, 9.4, $9.000. Someone actually was willing to pay $9,000 for this book. That is indisputable. Yeah, but that book is so rare that I'm not sure that is the market price or the coked up Nick Cage after a pint of Courvasier price, RMA? Maybe it was the same lunatic that piled 30 large into that 9.6 GL 76. Either way, everyone wants to avoid the 300 lb gorilla in the room. That's right, I'm talking DC 100 Page Super Spectacular #5. There's been an 8.0 on ebay for $565 for 3 years. If you want romance, buy a bottle of Johnson & Johnson's grab the iPad and lock yourself in a closet. Don't blow $500 on a comic. exactly. One or two sales doesn't make a book "worth" something. The hundreds and hundreds of hulk 181 transactions in any given year provide us with plenty of actual and factual sales that definitely tell us the "value" of a hulk 181. The purported sales of the occasional high grade cerebus are so sparse as to be anecdotal, at best. -J.

So you're saying the value of the book is based on the low supply and the demand for the book? That's an interesting idea. I think you may have something there. Another fun, out of context quote. Yaaaaay. -J.

What are you basing this on? I can understand if you personally don't care about the book, fair enough, but don't paint the rest of the collecting community with such a broad brush No, I actually like the book. Let me suggest you not read into my favorable view of Hulk 181 as a knock on Cerebus 1. And this is not about my painting the rest of the collecting community with a "broad brush." Actually, the bristle that represents the Cerebus 1 collector should not define nearly all of the remaining Hulk 181 bristles. It's about my comparing 2 books: one that is an iconic key to an independently published comic. There's no issue when it comes to scarcity- Cerebus 1 is the tougher book. If the SA teaches us anything, the scarcer key is not the most valuable. Hulk 181's demand is only going to increase (like its SA counterpart, AF 15). It's only a matter of time before the same view applies to the BA when it comes to the iconic key. +1. And again I would posit that a very large chunk of the "value" of Cerebus is more institutional (read: Overstreet) than real (read: It isn't the "must have" book of the BA, Marvel or otherwise). Its place on the list is just as non-sensical as some of the other books Overstreet also has on there that Blazincomics has mentioned, all of which contribute to the overall lack of credibility of the list. -J.

In the grand scheme of things, yes. (thumbs u -J.

That's the white elephant in the room that has been ignored. Folks like RMA would rather point out the merits of another poster's auto correct ("Cerberus" vs. "Cerebus", my phone doesn't care either, my man) or how they choose to abbreviate "Overstreet", than the fact that about the only thing Overstreet is good for at this point is maintaining the status quo for old school collectors and giving local dealers something to low ball you with when you try to sell your books. It's great that some dealers can anecdotally recount how well their copies of Cerebus sell when they have them, there will always be a buyer for a book at some price. But again, if the book had an availability that was half (or even a quarter?) of Hulk 181, It would likely not be of any interest to even the niche collectors who like to feel like they have something "rare" in their collections. Essentially the true "value" of the book is skewed mightily by the low print and nothing else. The value of hulk 181 is intrinsic and real. If Hulk 181 had the same print run as Cerebus it would probably be a 250k book in a 9.4. If Cerebus had the same print run as Hulk 181 it would probably be a 20 dollar book. I believe that is the point others have been trying to make when expressing bewilderment about Overstreet's list. And no, hulk 181 hasn't "slowed". It's actually having its best year from a price appreciation standpoint in a long time. (thumbs u -J. If the book was worthless it would not have any demand. I see tons of low print 80's indies in the back issue boxes. The low print run does not make them any more desirable or important. I didn't say the book was "worthless", something is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. But at the same time, this book is a good example (largely because of overstreet) of one with an ingrained, institutional "value" that has far exceeded its actual significance and impact on the hobby and pop culture. -J.

That's the white elephant in the room that has been ignored. Folks like RMA would rather point out the merits of another poster's auto correct ("Cerberus" vs. "Cerebus", my phone doesn't care either, my man) or how they choose to abbreviate "Overstreet", than the fact that about the only thing Overstreet is good for at this point is maintaining the status quo for old school collectors and giving local dealers something to low ball you with when you try to sell your books. It's great that some dealers can anecdotally recount how well their copies of Cerebus sell when they have them, there will always be a buyer for a book at some price. But again, if the book had an availability that was half (or even a quarter?) of Hulk 181, It would likely not be of any interest to even the niche collectors who like to feel like they have something "rare" in their collections. Essentially the true "value" of the book is skewed mightily by the low print and nothing else. The value of hulk 181 is intrinsic and real. If Hulk 181 had the same print run as Cerebus it would probably be a 250k book in a 9.4. If Cerebus had the same print run as Hulk 181 it would probably be a 20 dollar book. I believe that is the point others have been trying to make when expressing bewilderment about Overstreet's list. And no, hulk 181 hasn't "slowed". It's actually having its best year from a price appreciation standpoint in a long time. (thumbs u -J.

Any thoughts on whether the grading company would consider THAT to be restoration worth noting on the label? -J. Nobody has suggested that the pages should even be put in the slab with the Kane book. The missing pages are being offered as separate pieces from an original Bat 1 -- OUTSIDE of the slab with the Kane Bat 1. (as far as I know, the grading company might not even call it a Kane book anymore if there are pages from another copy) But some have suggested they would like to restore the book and that they could not do so without the missing pages. So, for those who would actually prefer to restore the book (which I advocate against) then at least they would know, going in, that they had every piece of the book. And if a person wants to keep the Kane book as it is (which I am suggesting) then even in that case, It seems to me, that anybody who buys it would like also to have the pieces missing from that book. All this means is that, despite the fact that Kane tores pages from the book(s) for reuse in his "swipe: file, a person can have the book as Kane left it but they will also have every piece of an original Bat 1. My point being that the book has in fact already had things done to it that are conspicuously absent from the current grading company label. -J. Now I really don't know what you're talking about. Especially since your initial comment was about restoration. There is clearly no restoration to the book. If you're talking about the trimming, as others have mentioned, I agree it would be best if the label had the word trimmed. Or at least that it was consistent so that it said (or didn't say) trimmed, consistently, on each book. if I thought there was any chance that a person who could afford this book would look at the book with all the obvious trimming and then look at the listing with all the words about trimming -- and still not figure out it's trimmed -- I would insist on reslabbing it to make sure that word is on the label. But I really don't have any doubt that every bidder will know. (And if I really thought somebody wouldn't know, I would have to question whether such a person would be able to figure out it's trimmed no matter how many ways they were told). And even then I would have to say it's got the lowest grade possible. It's got the same grade as other books would get even if they were unreadable, unholdable, unenjoyable and immensely displeasing to look at with horribly defaced and degraded cover images, etc. I've seen people looking at these in the Warner Brothers exhibit, and nobody's had that reaction. (in fact the only comments about the grade were to the opposite, that it looked much better than "poor") No offense to the book, it is what it is. My only issue is with the degree of disclosure on the grading company label. -J. While I wouldn't call it lack of disclosure, I suppose I could see it as an excuse to demand it be reslabbed-- with my real purpose being to get rid of that free-floating piece of paper that somehow ended up stuck in the side of the slab. Something like that diminishes the eye-appeal in a way that's really unfortunate. But it wouldn't be fair of me to demand a reslab on the pretext of adding the word "trimmed" if I don't really think the trimming isn't obvious. That's a fair point. But while one would assume that a person bidding on a batman 1 on a site like comic connect "should" know that the book is trimmed, if I am paying a premium for a graded book, I want something like that to be clearly disclosed on the label. Trimming is heavily frowned upon by many, regardless of why or by whom it was done. And yes the little piece of paper in the slab would bug me too. -J.

Any thoughts on whether the grading company would consider THAT to be restoration worth noting on the label? -J. Nobody has suggested that the pages should even be put in the slab with the Kane book. The missing pages are being offered as separate pieces from an original Bat 1 -- OUTSIDE of the slab with the Kane Bat 1. (as far as I know, the grading company might not even call it a Kane book anymore if there are pages from another copy) But some have suggested they would like to restore the book and that they could not do so without the missing pages. So, for those who would actually prefer to restore the book (which I advocate against) then at least they would know, going in, that they had every piece of the book. And if a person wants to keep the Kane book as it is (which I am suggesting) then even in that case, It seems to me, that anybody who buys it would like also to have the pieces missing from that book. All this means is that, despite the fact that Kane tores pages from the book(s) for reuse in his "swipe: file, a person can have the book as Kane left it but they will also have every piece of an original Bat 1. My point being that the book has in fact already had things done to it that are conspicuously absent from the current grading company label. -J. Now I really don't know what you're talking about. Especially since your initial comment was about restoration. There is clearly no restoration to the book. If you're talking about the trimming, as others have mentioned, I agree it would be best if the label had the word trimmed. Or at least that it was consistent so that it said (or didn't say) trimmed, consistently, on each book. if I thought there was any chance that a person who could afford this book would look at the book with all the obvious trimming and then look at the listing with all the words about trimming -- and still not figure out it's trimmed -- I would insist on reslabbing it to make sure that word is on the label. But I really don't have any doubt that every bidder will know. (And if I really thought somebody wouldn't know, I would have to question whether such a person would be able to figure out it's trimmed no matter how many ways they were told). And even then I would have to say it's got the lowest grade possible. It's got the same grade as other books would get even if they were unreadable, unholdable, unenjoyable and immensely displeasing to look at with horribly defaced and degraded cover images, etc. I've seen people looking at these in the Warner Brothers exhibit, and nobody's had that reaction. (in fact the only comments about the grade were to the opposite, that it looked much better than "poor") No offense to the book, it is what it is. My only issue is with the degree of disclosure on the grading company label. -J.

Any thoughts on whether the grading company would consider THAT to be restoration worth noting on the label? -J. Nobody has suggested that the pages should even be put in the slab with the Kane book. The missing pages are being offered as separate pieces from an original Bat 1 -- OUTSIDE of the slab with the Kane Bat 1. (as far as I know, the grading company might not even call it a Kane book anymore if there are pages from another copy) But some have suggested they would like to restore the book and that they could not do so without the missing pages. So, for those who would actually prefer to restore the book (which I advocate against) then at least they would know, going in, that they had every piece of the book. And if a person wants to keep the Kane book as it is (which I am suggesting) then even in that case, It seems to me, that anybody who buys it would like also to have the pieces missing from that book. All this means is that, despite the fact that Kane tores pages from the book(s) for reuse in his "swipe: file, a person can have the book as Kane left it but they will also have every piece of an original Bat 1. My point being that the book has in fact already had things done to it that are conspicuously absent from the current grading company label. -J.

It doesn't appear, it simply is. So you say. Am I not entitled to my own facts? Out of context quotes are fun. -J.

If there were even half as many Cerberus' as there are Hulk 181's, the book wouldn't be worth squat. It's a testament to the true "value" of Hulk 181 that the book sells for what it does, across all grades, each and every day. It's not a gimmicky or niche book that only needs two bidders in an auction to push up the value the few times a year one becomes available. On paper Cerberus may appear to be more expensive, when it does sell, but Hulk 181 is by far the more "valuable" book to 99.9999999999% of collectors and more important to the hobby as a whole, in that it is truly a pillar book. -J.

+1. -J.

Or like Tales to Astonish #27 is the first Hank Pym and Tales to Astonish #35 is the first Ant Man. Even though the cover on TTA 35 plainly states "The RETURN of the Ant Man"? (Emphasis added). -J. I'm just stirring the pot. (That said you do bring up an interesting point. Guess how many times the term Ant Man appears in TTA #27.) None. But in fairness it is an "origin story" for the character, with "The MAN in the ANT Hill" (Emphasis not added) stated prominently as the title on the cover as well. (thumbs u -J.

Wow wow wow that's what I call a super fan! -J.

Or like Tales to Astonish #27 is the first Hank Pym and Tales to Astonish #35 is the first Ant Man. Even though the cover on TTA 35 plainly states "The RETURN of the Ant Man"? (Emphasis added). -J.

Any thoughts on whether the grading company would consider THAT to be restoration worth noting on the label? -J.

It's now up to $15,200 with reserve not met. No doubt the Kane copy factor makes this book more desirable, but it's still impressive to see a Batman #1 in this grade do so well. With results like this we will undoubtedly be seeing a multitude of purple label books breaking free and finding new homes. -J.

A 9.6 should go for between 1k-1,150. By the way, pics or it didn't happen. -J.