Jaydogrules

Something wrong with having one of each ? -J.

...and even in the world of Overstreet, using its own limited and selective methodology this is your game changer: http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4 -J. Hey Jaydog; You can't be serious here and must just be putting us on! If not, then from your link above, it's ovbious to me that you have absolutlley no concept as to the meaning of the valuations in the OS guide. The current edition of the guide just came out last month and attempts to based their valuations on reported actual sales for the previous year (i.e. for the year 2013) as opposed to possible sales for the coming year. The example from your link is for a auction that was completed on August 18th of the year 2014. This means that this sale should be reflected in next year's edition of the OS guide which is not due out until July of the year 2015. So yes, it is quite conceivable that next year's guide could indeed have Hulk 181 at a higher valuation than Cerebus 1 if there are continuing sales of 9.2 Hulk 181's at this same level and there are no 9.2 or higher Cerebus sales. On the other hand, I would have no problem with OS maintaining a higher valuation for Cerebus 1 if there are higher dollar value sales for Cerebus 1 or if the majority of the Hulk 181 sales for the balance of the year is not supported by this one particular sale at $3,199. Now if this were the Wizard price guide you was referring to, I wouuld understand completely as they always attempted to forecast or set prices before they actually occurred. Particularly funny when they were caught with their undies down around their ankles as some of their supposedly Top 10 hot books were listed with huge price increases even when they had not yet hit the newsstand as they were late. BTW: I am still waiting for you to countered my 5 points from above as your attached link certainly did not do the job. I will, however, apologize and admit that you are completely right if you can prove to me and everybody else on the boards here that August 18, 2014 is part of the year 2013 or has taken place before 2013. I will bow to this point my good man. -J.

RMA I can honestly say that I respect that you as a gentleman and a scholar, as well as your opinion. (thumbs u -J.

Wow. Yes wow. Wow for the selective data points (now down to a whopping four) that the few remaining Cerebus 1 apologists are using to rationalize a thoroughly defeated position. -J.

...and even in the world of Overstreet, using its own limited and selective methodology this is your game changer: http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4 -J. Except that now you're trying to use a case where one sale or a handful of sales is actually irrelevant. If there are only a handful of sales, but they are consistent, that is the value. If there are a large quantity of sales and a handful that fall outside the range of the majority, the majority is the value, not the outliers. Of course, that may actually be the value for Hulk 181 in 9.2 going forward, but that remains to be seen. Again, now everyone is trying to use the "but it's scarce" argument to their advantage, and hulk 181's greater numbers in grade to its potential disadvantage (other sales at 9.2 possibly diluting this high sale), when that is in fact the problem in the first place, per the OP's original post. No, three sales in ten years don't tell me anything definitive. But that Hulk 181 sale just happened. If two more like it happen in the next nine years would that prove a "trend" to you like it evidently does for Cerebus 1? -J. Alright...let's compare like with like. Mar of 2014. One sale. Cerebus #1, CGC 9.4. $9,000. No Hulk #181 in 9.4 Universal has sold for more than $3600, ever. What conclusion(s) do you draw from this? RMA I love you man but your arguments have completely fallen apart. So you say... No. That is not the single highest sale figure. Details, Jaydog, details. That is nothing but speculation. No one has any way to prove, or disprove, this. It is pure speculation, and therefore cannot be a reasonable position to take. Not the point (at this particular junction.) I am asking you what conclusion(s) you draw from this recent sale. NO. Stop making me repeat myself. Seriously, Jaydog, stop it. I have already stated, MULTIPLE TIMES, that a SINGLE sale does not prove ANYTHING. I simply asked YOU what conclusion(s) YOU draw from this. You're making me repeat myself. 9.9 is a FREAK GRADE, and CANNOT be used to make ANY argument about ANYTHING except in comparison to other 9.9s, and the other freak grade, 10. So...what conclusion(s) do you draw from the sale of the Cerebus #1 9.4 for $9,000? For Cerebus 1, a 9.4 is the "freak grade" (single highest). The lateral grade for hulk 181 would be the 9.9 (also the highest for that book). Hulk 181 has far more chances of getting a book in that grade because of its far greater print run than Cerebus. Again, this is the problem that the OP first mentioned with having these books on the same list and especially by having Cerebus ahead of hulk 181 on that list. So I will grant you this much RMA: Yes, in a 9.4 grade (and that grade only), the five highest known graded (file?) copies of Cerebus 1 that have sold over the last decade have been higher than the 300+ copies of hulk 181 in 9.4 (with 300+ copies graded higher) have been over the same period of time. However as of now, not even by the selective criterion used by overstreet (1 sale of 9.2 cerebus 1 in ten years??) does this make Cerebus 1 more "valuable" than hulk 181 (see recent 9.2 hulk 181 sale linked earlier in thread). And since we have already established that hulk 181 sells for more than Cerebus 1 in literally every single grade (other than the 4 sales in 9.4), I am struggling to see what it is left that you're arguing for, other than your apparent pride and pride of ownership in your copy of Cerebus 1. Cerebus 1 has five highest graded copies that have periodically sold for more thank hulk 181 in a 9.4 grade does not equate to "Cerebus 1 is more valuable than hulk 181." -J.

...and even in the world of Overstreet, using its own limited and selective methodology this is your game changer: http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4 -J. Except that now you're trying to use a case where one sale or a handful of sales is actually irrelevant. If there are only a handful of sales, but they are consistent, that is the value. If there are a large quantity of sales and a handful that fall outside the range of the majority, the majority is the value, not the outliers. Of course, that may actually be the value for Hulk 181 in 9.2 going forward, but that remains to be seen. Again, now everyone is trying to use the "but it's scarce" argument to their advantage, and hulk 181's greater numbers in grade to its potential disadvantage (other sales at 9.2 possibly diluting this high sale), when that is in fact the problem in the first place, per the OP's original post. No, three sales in ten years don't tell me anything definitive. But that Hulk 181 sale just happened. If two more like it happen in the next nine years would that prove a "trend" to you like it evidently does for Cerebus 1? -J. Alright...let's compare like with like. Mar of 2014. One sale. Cerebus #1, CGC 9.4. $9,000. No Hulk #181 in 9.4 Universal has sold for more than $3600, ever. What conclusion(s) do you draw from this? RMA I love you man but your arguments have completely fallen apart. Now you want to look at the single highest sale figure of the single highest graded example of Cerebus (9.4) because hulk 181 has apparently now eclipsed the aardvark in a 9.2, even though this is not the grade that even overstreet uses for comparison? To you, this ONE SALE rationally and reasonably makes Cerebus 1 universally "more valuable" than hulk 181 in your opinion? Seriously ? Yet you STILL don't want to discuss the single highest sale of the single highest graded example of hulk 181 for $150k? The sale of the top grade of the REAL king of the BA means nothing in your book? That's just nuts. But I guess I'm the crazy one in reality, so carry on. -J.

...and even in the world of Overstreet, using its own limited and selective methodology this is your game changer: http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4 -J. Except that now you're trying to use a case where one sale or a handful of sales is actually irrelevant. If there are only a handful of sales, but they are consistent, that is the value. If there are a large quantity of sales and a handful that fall outside the range of the majority, the majority is the value, not the outliers. Of course, that may actually be the value for Hulk 181 in 9.2 going forward, but that remains to be seen. Again, now everyone is trying to use the "but it's scarce" argument to their advantage, and hulk 181's greater numbers in grade to its potential disadvantage (other sales at 9.2 possibly diluting this high sale), when that is in fact the problem in the first place, per the OP's original post. No, three sales in ten years don't tell me anything definitive. But that Hulk 181 sale just happened. If two more like it happen in the next nine years would that prove a "trend" to you like it evidently does for Cerebus 1? -J.

...and even in the world of Overstreet, using its own limited and selective methodology this is your game changer: Here's a great example of the foundational unsoundness of your arguments: You don't know what Overstreet uses, so you cannot possibly make this claim. You cannot claim it is "selective", because you do not know what information it selects, and what it discards (if anything), to arrive at its prices. You have no way of knowing if and how it is "limited", because you are not privy to the methods that Overstreet uses to compile prices But it sure makes for a good sound bite! Not sure how this is supposed to be a "game changer." Do you have any recent sales of Cerebus #1 in 9.2 to compare t with? So NOW you want to use the limited print run and lack of any real sales data for cerebus 1 to make your point ? Talk about trying to have things both ways. Sheeesh. And to answer your question: No. And neither does Overstreet. Which is why cerebus being ranked higher than Hulk 181 on his list is silly and meaningless. -J.

...and even in the world of Overstreet, using its own limited and selective methodology this is your game changer: http://www.ebay.com/itm/INCREDIBLE-HULK-181-WHITE-PAGES-CGC-GRADED-9-2-NOVEMBER-1974-/400755267796?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item5d4ee018d4 -J.

+1. This. So to use RMA's own logic, this one sale of Hulk 181 in a 9.2 should be enough to propel it past Cerebus #1 in next year's overstreet. -J. You are using your own logic, not mine, as explained at length previously. Not really. That hulk 181 9.2 beats the two sales of cerebus in a 9.2. By YOUR logic (and Overstreet) the hulk 181 will be more "valuable" on the list next year. Done and done. Though I am sure you will continue on with a whole new set of qualifiers. -J.

+1. This. So to use RMA's own logic, this one sale of Hulk 181 in a 9.2 should be enough to propel it past Cerebus #1 in next year's overstreet. -J.

Always love a person who makes his own interpretation out to be facts. Facts: Cerebus #1 sales, as recorded at GPA... ( 9.4 ) - - (1) $9,000 - $9,000 Mar-2014 ( 9.4 ) Sgnt series/Signed by Dave Sim (Dave Sim File Copy) - - - - $7,768 Feb-2010 2009 (1) $7,754Hi 2004 (1) $10,600Hi Total books sold: 3. Hi/Low price recorded: $10,600/$7,754 ( 9.2 ) Sgnt series/Signed by Dave Sim (Dave Sim File Copy) - - - - $2,136 Nov-2005 These are facts, established and recorded. Do you dispute these facts? Because these are the facts to which I refer, not my opinion. Please try not to be so easily offended, and ask before assuming an incorrect interpretation of what someone else has written. My "no" was not about Jaydog's understanding of your original post, but rather that it is "only in Overstreet" that such a conclusion can be reached. My apologies for not cutting out the phrase " I think that's in line with the OP's original point too;" which led to your misunderstanding my post. You make the mistake of assuming I am arguing out of passion...perhaps because that is all you know? I do not argue out of passion, but out of reason, regardless of my personal feelings about both books. When you change the parameters of the original premise, and then use that to argue that the original premise is therefore wrong, that's irrational. That's precisely what has happened here. I'm sorry that you are offended by this, but that doesn't change the fact that your position...that Cerebus #1 is only more valuable according to Overstreet, and that itself is an unreasonable conclusion for Overstreet to draw...is invalid. Five sales in 10 years? Hulk 181 will sell that many in grade this week. RMA, I think you have inadvertently validated the OP's original point with the cited GPA data you have provided. -J. I guess we should remove Detective Comics 27 and Action Comics 1 from the Overstreet top GA lists too since they sell very few copies over the years. I get your point but it's not really an apples to apples comparison since those books' rarity is due to attrition and not a deliberately small original print run. Therefore it is a more level playing field as they are measured against most of the other GA titles on the list. -J.

Point of clarification: do you mean that "Hulk 181 will sell that many in those grades this week"...? As to validating the OP's point, please see the post above. (thumbs u -J.

When it comes to conflict resolution, he's amazingly civil with his words. Buying on ebay..... -J.

Always love a person who makes his own interpretation out to be facts. Facts: Cerebus #1 sales, as recorded at GPA... ( 9.4 ) - - (1) $9,000 - $9,000 Mar-2014 ( 9.4 ) Sgnt series/Signed by Dave Sim (Dave Sim File Copy) - - - - $7,768 Feb-2010 2009 (1) $7,754Hi 2004 (1) $10,600Hi Total books sold: 3. Hi/Low price recorded: $10,600/$7,754 ( 9.2 ) Sgnt series/Signed by Dave Sim (Dave Sim File Copy) - - - - $2,136 Nov-2005 These are facts, established and recorded. Do you dispute these facts? Because these are the facts to which I refer, not my opinion. Please try not to be so easily offended, and ask before assuming an incorrect interpretation of what someone else has written. My "no" was not about Jaydog's understanding of your original post, but rather that it is "only in Overstreet" that such a conclusion can be reached. My apologies for not cutting out the phrase " I think that's in line with the OP's original point too;" which led to your misunderstanding my post. You make the mistake of assuming I am arguing out of passion...perhaps because that is all you know? I do not argue out of passion, but out of reason, regardless of my personal feelings about both books. When you change the parameters of the original premise, and then use that to argue that the original premise is therefore wrong, that's irrational. That's precisely what has happened here. I'm sorry that you are offended by this, but that doesn't change the fact that your position...that Cerebus #1 is only more valuable according to Overstreet, and that itself is an unreasonable conclusion for Overstreet to draw...is invalid. Five sales in 10 years? Hulk 181 will sell that many in grade this week. RMA, I think you have inadvertently validated the OP's original point with the cited GPA data you have provided. -J.

I agree. If anyone wants to sell me their high grade non-key Cerebus 1, please let me know. IH 181 I have and can get more copies of whenever I want. Cerebus 1, not so much. And all the money in the world won't conjur up a 9.8, if none truly exist in that grade. A shame, too. Sim's file copies yielded many ultra high grade early copies...but no #1s above 9.4. If....IF...a 9.8 Cerebus #1 showed up, I don't think $30-$40K would be out of the question. ....and in the real world the one single sale of that one single book in that one single grade STILL would not make cerebus more "valuable" than hulk 181. -J. Only in fantasy land, where documented sales figures don't matter. It's easily possible that...you know, actually comparing grade for grade...that a Cerebus #1 in 9.8 would sell for more than Hulk #181 in 9.8 ever has. Your real issue is that Overstreet didn't do a "most popular" list, which is what you want. The OPG is a price guide, not a popularity guide. Their job is to report prices, not rank characters according to popularity. Wanting the OPG to do a popularity list isn't rational. Untrue. And yet you want to use a hypothetical "single highest graded" copy of cerebus 1 to rationalize its misguided positioning on overstreet's flawed list but ignore the real world sale of hulk 181's "single highest graded" copy for $150k, which was four years ago, and could just as likely be over $200k if it happened today. Makes no sense. Nor does it make sense that you disregard the fact that cerebus sells at about one-half hulk 181 does in an 8.5, (and even lower percentages on down the grading scale) even though there are literally only 6 blue label copies graded higher, while there are hundreds and hundreds hulk 181's graded higher. Nor does it make sense that Overstreet (and you apparently) think that the same 5 or 6 copies of cerebus 1 that have exchanged hands over the last 15 years or so over a 9.0 grade, are in any way, shape or form an appropriate way to determine the actual "value" of the book as compared to the thousands of sales of hulk 181 that have occurred over the same amount of time. Nor does it make sense that you could possibly believe this book is more "valuable" than hulk 181 in real life simply because those five or six highest graded examples of cerebus 1 in a whopping two grade and one or two sale comparison have sold for more than hulk 181's in comparable grade. How convenient it is for cerebus 1 that Overstreet has decided to compare books in that one grade that he does. So yes, in the land of Overstreet at least, cerebus 1 is a mega key that's more "valuable" than hulk 181. But in the real world it's a small niche indy book from the 70's with a low print run, and few high grade copies on the census that get a few specialty book collectors excited when they come to market. Definitely not in hulk 181's league, "value"-wise or otherwise, but certainly in a league of its own. And no, "price variant" books shouldn't be on that list either. -J. If you think that price variants are overvalued, sell them to me cheap There are many price variants that will for a lot more than Cerebus 1 or Hulk 181 in lower grades. However, the price variant market doesn't usually go outlandish multiples for single highest graded... Although, I bet a 9.8 Star Wars 1 35 cent would fetch quite a bit... All that said, they are bronze age comics too so no reason why they shouldn't be there. Because it is substantively identical to the regular issue and (as with cerebus 1) the sampling size/sales data is far too small to make an accurate or adequate apples to apples comparison. -J. It's not an opinion poll, which requires a sampling of a certain size to draw a reasonable idea of what the average person believes. As you, yourself, have stated repeatedly with your Hulk #181 9.9 example, a single sale is sufficient to establish a fact, if not necessarily a fact pattern. Thankfully, in the case of Cerebus #1, we have multiple data points in the 9.2+ grades to demonstrate a fact pattern. So why is it perfectly fine for you that the one or two sales of a cerebus 1 in a 9.2 is sufficient to establish all time most valuable BA comic status for that, yet the 9.9 hulk 181 sale is just a random outlier that should be thrown out? (Not shilled by the way, it was a comic link sale, the buyers paid and it sits comfortably in their collection, no I was not the buyer). Nobody is saying that cerebus 1 in a 9.2 hasn't sold more for a hulk 181 in the same grade once or twice. The entire point of this thread was to point out the ridiculousness of Overstreet for ranking it above hulk 181 based solely on those one or two sales. And it's a valid point/flaw in Overstreet's methodology, whether you choose to acknowledge such or not. -J.

I agree. If anyone wants to sell me their high grade non-key Cerebus 1, please let me know. IH 181 I have and can get more copies of whenever I want. Cerebus 1, not so much. And all the money in the world won't conjur up a 9.8, if none truly exist in that grade. A shame, too. Sim's file copies yielded many ultra high grade early copies...but no #1s above 9.4. If....IF...a 9.8 Cerebus #1 showed up, I don't think $30-$40K would be out of the question. ....and in the real world the one single sale of that one single book in that one single grade STILL would not make cerebus more "valuable" than hulk 181. -J. Only in fantasy land, where documented sales figures don't matter. It's easily possible that...you know, actually comparing grade for grade...that a Cerebus #1 in 9.8 would sell for more than Hulk #181 in 9.8 ever has. Your real issue is that Overstreet didn't do a "most popular" list, which is what you want. The OPG is a price guide, not a popularity guide. Their job is to report prices, not rank characters according to popularity. Wanting the OPG to do a popularity list isn't rational. Untrue. And yet you want to use a hypothetical "single highest graded" copy of cerebus 1 to rationalize its misguided positioning on overstreet's flawed list but ignore the real world sale of hulk 181's "single highest graded" copy for $150k, which was four years ago, and could just as likely be over $200k if it happened today. Makes no sense. Nor does it make sense that you disregard the fact that cerebus sells at about one-half hulk 181 does in an 8.5, (and even lower percentages on down the grading scale) even though there are literally only 6 blue label copies graded higher, while there are hundreds and hundreds hulk 181's graded higher. Nor does it make sense that Overstreet (and you apparently) think that the same 5 or 6 copies of cerebus 1 that have exchanged hands over the last 15 years or so over a 9.0 grade, are in any way, shape or form an appropriate way to determine the actual "value" of the book as compared to the thousands of sales of hulk 181 that have occurred over the same amount of time. Nor does it make sense that you could possibly believe this book is more "valuable" than hulk 181 in real life simply because those five or six highest graded examples of cerebus 1 in a whopping two grade and one or two sale comparison have sold for more than hulk 181's in comparable grade. How convenient it is for cerebus 1 that Overstreet has decided to compare books in that one grade that he does. So yes, in the land of Overstreet at least, cerebus 1 is a mega key that's more "valuable" than hulk 181. But in the real world it's a small niche indy book from the 70's with a low print run, and few high grade copies on the census that get a few specialty book collectors excited when they come to market. Definitely not in hulk 181's league, "value"-wise or otherwise, but certainly in a league of its own. And no, "price variant" books shouldn't be on that list either. -J. If you think that price variants are overvalued, sell them to me cheap There are many price variants that will for a lot more than Cerebus 1 or Hulk 181 in lower grades. However, the price variant market doesn't usually go outlandish multiples for single highest graded... Although, I bet a 9.8 Star Wars 1 35 cent would fetch quite a bit... All that said, they are bronze age comics too so no reason why they shouldn't be there. Because it is substantively identical to the regular issue and (as with cerebus 1) the sampling size/sales data is far too small to make an accurate or adequate apples to apples comparison. -J.

Seller looks legit and they did mention the tape in the body of their ad. -J.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMAZING-FANTASY-15-CGC-NO-CHIPPING-TIME-PAY-A-GEM-LAST-SALE-15-500-/351146472171?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item51c1f5f2eb Looks like this is the new price level for a 4.5 after all.... -J.

Touche! I think that's in line with the OP's original point too; that "only in Overstreet" and by Overstreet's particular criterion could such a result be reached. The only thing that should probably really be debated is the validity and completeness of the criterion itself, not the merits of each individual book. -J.

I agree. If anyone wants to sell me their high grade non-key Cerebus 1, please let me know. IH 181 I have and can get more copies of whenever I want. Cerebus 1, not so much. And all the money in the world won't conjur up a 9.8, if none truly exist in that grade. A shame, too. Sim's file copies yielded many ultra high grade early copies...but no #1s above 9.4. If....IF...a 9.8 Cerebus #1 showed up, I don't think $30-$40K would be out of the question. ....and in the real world the one single sale of that one single book in that one single grade STILL would not make cerebus more "valuable" than hulk 181. -J. Only in fantasy land, where documented sales figures don't matter. It's easily possible that...you know, actually comparing grade for grade...that a Cerebus #1 in 9.8 would sell for more than Hulk #181 in 9.8 ever has. Your real issue is that Overstreet didn't do a "most popular" list, which is what you want. The OPG is a price guide, not a popularity guide. Their job is to report prices, not rank characters according to popularity. Wanting the OPG to do a popularity list isn't rational. Untrue. And yet you want to use a hypothetical "single highest graded" copy of cerebus 1 to rationalize its misguided positioning on overstreet's flawed list but ignore the real world sale of hulk 181's "single highest graded" copy for $150k, which was four years ago, and could just as likely be over $200k if it happened today. Makes no sense. That's because, as before, you keep "forgetting" to mention that that $150k sale was for a NINE POINT NINE (9.9) copy. You keep trying to force a 9.9....which is a freak no matter WHAT book it is...into a discussion about averages (and yes, that includes averages of highest graded copies.) I don't want to use a hypothetical "single highest graded" copy of Cerebus #1 at all. That's your invention. I am perfectly fine with there being 3, 4, 5 copies in 9.8, and the value will still stand. Again, this is your invention, and as Fingh said earlier, a classic straw man. No one is disregarding anything except you. No one is disputing that Hulk, in lower grades, sells for more than Cerebus #1. So? So what? What bearing does that have on the HIGHEST PRICED issue, as reported by the OPG (and supported by sales data?) Just because you want something a certain way doesn't mean the OPG is therefore wrong. But by all means, please keep throwing up straw-man arguments. It keeps me sharp. Sales data is sales data. The sparsity of sales data does not therefore make said data "anecdotal", as you claimed earlier. Why do you think little sales data means nothing? (And would you please directly answer my question this time? You haven't done that in any of these conversations, as far as I can see.) What part of "this book sells for more in this grade" is unclear to you? That is the reason why Cerebus #1 is more valuable than Hulk #1. You keep saying "in real life"...where did these sales take place? Candyland? More straw-man arguing. OPG didn't call it a "mega key." And there's no need for quotation marks: by the OPG's parameters, the book is ACTUALLY more valuable. So? The only thing that matters is this: does the book sell for more, in high grade, IN THE SAME GRADE, as Hulk #181? Yes/no. Pretty simple. Why you keep fighting this is truly beyond me. You either have issues being rational, or you're a genius who can fake irrationality realllly well. The only person using a "straw man" argument here is the guy who's using selective data points-- in this case, the exactly three copies of Cerebus 1 that exist in 9.2-- to the exclusion of all other data points that exist in the real world and not only within the pages of Overstreet -- to achieve and believe in a particular result. -J.

I agree. If anyone wants to sell me their high grade non-key Cerebus 1, please let me know. IH 181 I have and can get more copies of whenever I want. Cerebus 1, not so much. And all the money in the world won't conjur up a 9.8, if none truly exist in that grade. A shame, too. Sim's file copies yielded many ultra high grade early copies...but no #1s above 9.4. If....IF...a 9.8 Cerebus #1 showed up, I don't think $30-$40K would be out of the question. ....and in the real world the one single sale of that one single book in that one single grade STILL would not make cerebus more "valuable" than hulk 181. -J. Only in fantasy land, where documented sales figures don't matter. It's easily possible that...you know, actually comparing grade for grade...that a Cerebus #1 in 9.8 would sell for more than Hulk #181 in 9.8 ever has. Your real issue is that Overstreet didn't do a "most popular" list, which is what you want. The OPG is a price guide, not a popularity guide. Their job is to report prices, not rank characters according to popularity. Wanting the OPG to do a popularity list isn't rational. Untrue. And yet you want to use a hypothetical "single highest graded" copy of cerebus 1 to rationalize its misguided positioning on overstreet's flawed list but ignore the real world sale of hulk 181's "single highest graded" copy for $150k, which was four years ago, and could just as likely be over $200k if it happened today. Makes no sense. Nor does it make sense that you disregard the fact that cerebus sells at about one-half hulk 181 does in an 8.5, (and even lower percentages on down the grading scale) even though there are literally only 6 blue label copies graded higher, while there are hundreds and hundreds hulk 181's graded higher. Nor does it make sense that Overstreet (and you apparently) think that the same 5 or 6 copies of cerebus 1 that have exchanged hands over the last 15 years or so over a 9.0 grade, are in any way, shape or form an appropriate way to determine the actual "value" of the book as compared to the thousands of sales of hulk 181 that have occurred over the same amount of time. Nor does it make sense that you could possibly believe this book is more "valuable" than hulk 181 in real life simply because those five or six highest graded examples of cerebus 1 in a whopping two grade and one or two sale comparison have sold for more than hulk 181's in comparable grade. How convenient it is for cerebus 1 that Overstreet has decided to compare books in that one grade that he does. So yes, in the land of Overstreet at least, cerebus 1 is a mega key that's more "valuable" than hulk 181. But in the real world it's a small niche indy book from the 70's with a low print run, and few high grade copies on the census that get a few specialty book collectors excited when they come to market. Definitely not in hulk 181's league, "value"-wise or otherwise, but certainly in a league of its own. And no, "price variant" books shouldn't be on that list either. -J.

I agree. If anyone wants to sell me their high grade non-key Cerebus 1, please let me know. IH 181 I have and can get more copies of whenever I want. Cerebus 1, not so much. And all the money in the world won't conjur up a 9.8, if none truly exist in that grade. A shame, too. Sim's file copies yielded many ultra high grade early copies...but no #1s above 9.4. If....IF...a 9.8 Cerebus #1 showed up, I don't think $30-$40K would be out of the question. ....and in the real world the one single sale of that one single book in that one single grade STILL would not make cerebus more "valuable" than hulk 181. -J.

You can't be serious here......are you really saying that the Overstreet valuations should be based upon relative rankings of graded copies of a particular book. Would anybody be able to figure out the real world valuations from the guide if this were the case. BTW: Did you notice that OS has Hulk 181 valued substantially higher than Cerebus 1 in all condition grades except for the 9.2 top of valuation which is the one used for their Top 10 list. No, I'm saying that one should be careful to conclude that the value of a book at a specific grade will tell the whole story. What part of the story is it not telling? You can't figure that out yourself? Oh, no, I'm clearly a numbskull, and need these things carefully explained, or they go right over my head. Please, by all means, explain away! No, it's okay. You not a numbskull and you don't need someone like me to explain it to you. RMA you're not a numbskull and I actually think you're just entertaining yourself in this thread at this point. I'm fairly certain that you understand quite well that the OP's point that Overstreet comparing books in only one grade leads to one or two anomalous sales (ie Cerebus in a 9.2) queering the list and giving a completely false impression (ie that Cerebus is a more "valuable" BA book than Hulk 181, when it obviously is not by a mile). -J.

BJ; You have presented us with the perfect scenario and definitive argument here for both cases which will clear up this issue once and for all. (thumbs u If there was only 1 single highest graded Hulk 181 and Cerebus 1 at CGC 9.9 and I was given no other copies to buy, I would most definitely without a doubt pay more for the Hulk 181. This is because in your particular imaginery world, the supply for both is equal, so the money would definitely go for the Hulk 181 since we all know that the demand for this book far exceeds the demand for Cerebus 1. Now let's change it to a much more realistic world scenario. Suppose you are at a convention and you see both a CGC 9.2 copy of Hulk 181 and also a CGC 9.2 copy of Cerebus 1, but only have enough money for just one of them. Which one would you buy? Without a doubt and faster than the Flash, one hand would be reaching for my wallet while my other hand would be reaching for the Cerebus 1. Do you know why.....because you might not see another one in similar condition for years to come and after travelling to countless cons. The Hulk 181.....not a problem as it'll probably show up at the next con the following weekend or on any number of eBay websites or auction listings if you care to look, even at higher grades than CGC 9.2. My gawd, and as financially irresponsible and unbelieveable as it may sound, I would even be willing to pay more for a Cerebus 1 Over a Hulk 1 in this particular condition. With respect to the OS price guide, you should remember that they are not there to report on valuations for single highest CGC 9.9 copies of a book. Their highest valuation listing is only for 9.2 NM- books, and when you are down in this shallow end of the pool, the Cerebus 1 clearly wins out over the Hulk 181. BTW: When did the Overstreet Top 100 and Top 10 rankings become a popularity ranking as opposed to a valuation ranking? You know why I used the hypothetical scenario. I specifically stayed away from these books in the 9.2 range since Hulk 181 is readily available at higher grades. In the realistic world, the better example to use is a choice between the highest graded Hulk 181 and Cerebus 1. This is fair since Overstreet decided to compare both books at the 9.2 range, especially when one of them had a print run that would easily make it noticeable to a collector of underground comics while the other, a popular mainstream book, is abundant at this grade. If you had a choice between either for your collection, you would take the Cerebus? And yes, Overstreet is about valuation, but classifying lower print black and white independents as mainstream books and saying that the former is more valuable than the later because someone paid much more for it doesn't tell the whole story. 9.2 is the second highest grade for Cerebus 1. The book will demand more money than a 9.2 Hulk 181. Sales for second highest graded Cerebus 1 should be compared to those of the second highest graded Hulk 181s since all things are not equal in the real world. This. Or compare them both in their respective highest grades. The highest graded cerebus apparently sold for $9k. The highest grade hulk 181 sold for $150k. If Overstreet is seriously only comparing their relative "values" in just one grade and using that to create his list, then that's just silly and makes the list meaningless. If anything he should compile the list based on the weighted values across all grades. -J.