Jaydogrules

PQ = Page Quality Very true, but for this particular fellow the venue hardly matters. -J.

I've bought stuff from there before and they are legitimate. He sells a lot of things on consignment. The most likely scenario is that someone hit the "buy it now" and then backed out on the sale or didn't pay so he re listed it. GPA is usually pretty good about picking up sales that fell through and not reflecting it in its data, so no need to worry. What's more interesting to me is that great looking 5.5 in the heritage auction that has already obliterated the previous GPA high. http://comics.ha.com/itm/silver-age-1956-1969-/superhero/amazing-fantasy-15-marvel-1962-cgc-fn-55-off-white-to-white-pages/a/7097-91280.s -J.

Anecdotally, anything is possible. But if a "cr/ow" went for more than either book a week earlier or later, what could we possibly divine from those results either way? -J. Nothing because the cr/ow didn't sell the same day/auction as the OW/W and WHITE. Then what does a hypothetical, anecdotal auction prove ? -J. You are annoying. I now know to never ever interact with you on the boards. Thank you. Always nice to be reminded that a personal swipe is what a little intelligent dissension and debate will get you on these boards from time to time. (thumbs u -J.

Anecdotally, anything is possible. But if a "cr/ow" went for more than either book a week earlier or later, what could we possibly divine from those results either way? -J. Nothing because the cr/ow didn't sell the same day/auction as the OW/W and WHITE. Then what does a hypothetical, anecdotal auction prove ? -J.

Anecdotally, anything is possible. But if a "cr/ow" went for more than either book a week earlier or later, what could we possibly divine from those results either way? -J.

You are correct, this specific book set a high water mark for a 6.0 . I suspect there was more at play = pressable flaws in the notes. The purchase price was based more on potential than the present state of the book. Perhaps we should qualify our page quality comments to the following... Collectors will pay more for a White Pager. Flippers will not. Bob, that's been more or less my point all along....since no one can know if a certain book sold for less or more because of "page quality", it is impossible to quantify the data. The hypothesis that "'white page' books sell for more" is unable to be proven by the scientific method because the results are not repeatable and are random to the point of meaninglessness. That's why we are always told by the experienced guys (like yourself) to buy the book and not the label. Is a 6.0 with "white pages" a better book to buy than a 6.5 with "off white" pages? Is a 6.0 with marvel chipping and "white pages" a better book to buy than a 6.0 with a straight razor edge and "cream/ow" pages? Is a 6.0 with "white pages" the better book to get over a 6.0 with "off white" pages in an old label slab? Or even the question you posed, about our two examples at hand where somebody might be trying to play the CPR game, which, as we all know is very highly likely going to result in a different "PQ" coming back on the label regardless. I for one am a collector not a flipper, and I buy the book not the label, and certainly not the "PQ" (barring brittle of course, which, ironically, is the only "PQ" designation CGC uses that actually relates to "quality" and not "colour"). That is why I feel compelled to play devil's advocate when blanket statements are made. The reality is, books with "white pages" do not "always" sell for a "premium". Perhaps in uber high grade in the SA and BA one could find a 3-5% price difference with SOME consistency. But supply and demand on any particular book at any given time can even trump that. In the low/mid grade ranges, however, there really just isn't any consistent price "premium" paid , sales results are literally all over the map across the top three or four "PQ" levels. Which might be a good thing, because it would suggest that people are in fact buying the books and not the labels. (thumbs u -J.

That is your definition of first appearance, as you've stated many times, and it's correct from a strict dictionary standpoint. However, as comic books are a storytelling medium, what is collected as first appearances is usually character involvement in a narrative, not Previews ads, CSN stories, flyers, coupons or inter-office memos. Once again, despite the dictionary, if someone calls you 'bro', don't assume they're your brother. ...you didn't mention covers though. What more than the cover of a comic, especially in the age of the slab, is representative of the narrative within the pages of a comic? Be it metaphorical, literal, abstract, etc.? Let me put it another way....In this particular instance, would it really be reasonable to say that 609 is the "first appearance of Hush", when he is right there on the cover of 608 RRP? Just a question .... -J.

The comic in your link with off-white pages is listed with a buy it now price, but it isn't an example of a comic with lesser page quality selling for what a white pager just went for. It certainly is. The "sold for" price was $2650. Actually $150 more than what Dan subsequently paid for his copy in the same grade with "white pages". -J.

I disagree. It relates to the story-line, it doesn't actually frame a part of the story. Its non-sequential artwork related to the story told within the pages for which it is used as cover art. At best its a visual snapshot of an instance within a story. Irrelevant to the first appearance discussion. Also irrelevant to the first appearance discussion. Its no different than either of those. Its mass produced artwork that isn't being used to illustrate and tell the story or events the occur in the book as they happen. Its a visual summation and/or advertisement that depicts content involved with said story, but isn't actually part of it. It has no dialogue or exposition, its just there as stand-alone art. Not trying to be a dik here, sort of hard to explain my reasoning is all. My only issue with 608 is how much local shops charge for a first print, which is anywhere from 2 to 5 times the market price of the book. I actually agree with everything you posit here. But even if all that is true, why would it prevent his appearance on the cover of the first issue of his self titled story arc from being considered his "first appearance", if not only in cameo ? In this particular instance, which may or may not be applicable only in the case of Hush? Must a character's first appearance only be within the pages of a comic book for it to "count"? -J.

That is such a fresh and crisp looking, white-paged copy! Best 6.0 I've ever seen. The flaws must be on the back cover? I'd trade my 6.5 for it any day of the week. I predict a top spine split is what hurt the grade so severely. That's my guess. If I had nothing else but this photo to look at, I'd guess 8.0 - 8.5. +1 His 6.0 looks better than some 7.0+ copies I've seen. -J.

First off, page quality will sometimes be telling information for the condition of the interior covers. Books with toasted interior covers receive significant numerical downgrades, as they do for toasted front and back covers. Second, saying something over and over doesn't make it any more right than it was the first time it was said. At the least, it can be agreed that there are many long-time collectors who (i) seek out books with superior page quality designations, (ii) pay more for them, and (iii) notice that others pay more for them as well. ...and it can also be said that there are at least as many collectors who do not. I am struggling to understand why this fact seems to trouble some folks. -J. It doesn't. Your insulting collectors who disagree with your personal stance and insistence that page quality doesn't affect pricing do. Due respect namisgr, I don't believe I have insulted anybody, at least not directly. As I said a few posts back, some folks think they should pay more, some don't. The divide keeps prices fairly consistent for the books in grade, so to each his own my friend. -J. -signed, the OPQS..the original PQ snob... -J.

First off, page quality will sometimes be telling information for the condition of the interior covers. Books with toasted interior covers receive significant numerical downgrades, as they do for toasted front and back covers. Second, saying something over and over doesn't make it any more right than it was the first time it was said. At the least, it can be agreed that there are many long-time collectors who (i) seek out books with superior page quality designations, (ii) pay more for them, and (iii) notice that others pay more for them as well. ...and it can also be said that there are at least as many collectors who do not. I am struggling to understand why this fact seems to trouble some folks. -J. It doesn't. Your insulting collectors who disagree with your personal stance and insistence that page quality doesn't affect pricing do. Due respect namisgr, I don't believe I have insulted anybody, at least not directly. As I said a few posts back, some folks think they should pay more, some don't. The divide keeps prices fairly consistent for the books in grade, so to each his own my friend. -J. Statistically speaking it is very likely there would be a relationship between PQ and price - if "some people will pay more and other will not". In order for there to not be a relationship we would need either noone to want to pay a premium, or around the same amount of people to pay a premium for better PQ to be be countered by about the same amount of people wanting to pay less for better PQ. If this were true then one would have to come up with an explanation/justification for why and when books with "lesser PQ" sell for more than books with "better PQ" in the same grade. It is my hypothesis that it is this that equalizes prices, not the "amount of people" who will or will not pay a "premium" (although that is also a contributing factor). -J.

What is the difference between appearing on a cover and appearing in an advertisement, a preview, or at the back of the book as a pinup/character sketch? The cover art is usually related to the story within the pages of the book, but if it isn't actually depicting an event that occurs within the book then you are just left with the artwork that has no context. Most people regard first appearances to be when the character is first written into a story, not when their image is first mass-produced on a printed page. The cover art in this case does depict (encapsulates) the storyline. Really, it features all of the players of the storyline (or most of them anyway), in context to the story itself. The center image featuring the 50/50 split of Batman and Hush is a nice metaphor of the duality of each of the characters' respective personalities. The cover has become somewhat of a classic image unto itself. I wouldn't equate it to say Gobbledygook where some people like to say that was really the first appearance of the Turtles, or Foom 2. If anything, maybe a cover only first appearance should be considered a cameo? -J.

I assume your expertise on this matter allows you to call it a 'fact'. I don't see it the same way as you. I am a PQ snob and I will pay more for a fresh looking book. I am NOT troubled by this. It seems like the folks that argue against PQ valuation are more troubled about it. Actually, the reverse is true. Since they don't pay a "premium" for it, they have no skin in the game, and don't need to rationalize their buying decisions one way or the other. Dan- you have an awesome book, great presenter for the grade. You also got a splendid deal on it, regardless of the so-called "PQ" on the label. I only post this recent ebay result as a demonstration of my counter point, since your book has been sought to be used as anecdotal evidence by another poster for their point. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Strange-Tales-110-CGC-6-0-1st-Dr-Strange-/141230026995?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item20e1f730f3&nma=true&si=T6Np1tB5%252FZYDnmTPautXEt6zbyY%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 -J.

X-Men 282 hyped up Bishop on the cover and that issue was really just a cameo appearance. Manifest Destiny #1 Ottley variant comes to mind as well May have to send CGC an email about this.... I've always found Hush to be one of the more interesting newer Bats villains. Hope he is featured in an upcoming storyline. I appreciate the feedback guys. -J.

First off, page quality will sometimes be telling information for the condition of the interior covers. Books with toasted interior covers receive significant numerical downgrades, as they do for toasted front and back covers. Second, saying something over and over doesn't make it any more right than it was the first time it was said. At the least, it can be agreed that there are many long-time collectors who (i) seek out books with superior page quality designations, (ii) pay more for them, and (iii) notice that others pay more for them as well. ...and it can also be said that there are at least as many collectors who do not. I am struggling to understand why this fact seems to trouble some folks. -J. It doesn't. Your insulting collectors who disagree with your personal stance and insistence that page quality doesn't affect pricing do. Due respect namisgr, I don't believe I have insulted anybody, at least not directly. As I said a few posts back, some folks think they should pay more, some don't. The divide keeps prices fairly consistent for the books in grade, so to each his own my friend. -J.

First off, page quality will sometimes be telling information for the condition of the interior covers. Books with toasted interior covers receive significant numerical downgrades, as they do for toasted front and back covers. Second, saying something over and over doesn't make it any more right than it was the first time it was said. At the least, it can be agreed that there are many long-time collectors who (i) seek out books with superior page quality designations, (ii) pay more for them, and (iii) notice that others pay more for them as well. ...and it can also be argued that there are at least as many collectors who do not, hence the non-quantifiable, inconsistent differences in price. I am struggling to understand why this fact seems to trouble some folks so much. -J.

If you are going to say a cover appearance counts as a first appearance, without the character appearing in the actual story in the issue itself, then you are opening up a large can of worms in regards to first appearances. If an actual depiction of the character is all that is required, well then you have a very long list of understood first appearances that aren't actually first appearances; something Mr Ween likes to point out regularly that he often gets criticized for doing. Are there multiple known instances when a character made a first appearance on the cover, but was not featured in that same issue's storyline? I know the reverse has happened tons of times. This might be a unique instance, since this issue was the beginning of an entire storyline that was introducing this particular character (and was titled after him). That being the case, why wouldn't a cover appearance be considered a first appearance since he literally "first appeared" on the cover of the first issue of his own self-titled story arc? -J.

Not every collector is a "'PQ' snob". And some outright just don't care about it, understanding the arbitrariness of it (barring brittle, of course). -J. low pq tends to fall short of books with superior pq when it's time to sell. So yes pq matters. This does not occur on any verifiable or consistent basis. -J. Um, yes it does. Why don't you run a regression analysis on price and PQ for books in the same grade, during the same timeframe, and you'll see the correllation. After years of looking at GPA, LINK, E-bay, etc. prices, it becomes obvious that PQ does have an impact on sales prices. You are speaking in broad strokes. And this is simply not true. You cannot do anything more than provide anecdotal evidence to justify your opinion, and I can just as easily counter with anecdotal evidence to support the contrary position. If you don't mind paying more for that part of a label that is known for being notoriously arbitrary, more power to you. But as I said there are enough shoppers out there who it doesn't matter to, that negate whatever perceived price difference you think there may be. -J. Whatever. The evidence is there. PQ does effect price and you're only fooling yourself if you think otherwise. If you want to argue about CGC's consistency on PQ designations, that's a completely separate argument. Are you really going to sit there and tell us that the same ST #110 CGC 7.0 book with WHITE pages would sell for the same price as this OW copy? On any given day, absolutely. And you cannot state otherwise. That's the problem with anecdotal evidence....it cannot be tested using the scientific method. I understand that "PQ" enthusiasts love to look for that anecdotal evidence and say "A-ha-, see!". And a day or week or two later a CR/OW book sells for the same price or more even, and the room falls silent. "PQ" obviously matters to you and loads others, but it does not matter enough to enough others for it to truly and/or significantly affect price in the grand scheme of things. If a person makes a buying decision based only on "PQ", they are literally just buying the label, not the book. We are always told to do the exact opposite of that. -J. Actually, I have stated otherwise...anecdotal or not...it's a reality. I'm not a "PQ snob"...the primary reason it matters to me is because I know it matters to others...and impacts the market price should I ever decide to sell a book. And we pay CGC good money for their opinion on the grades and PQ of those slabbed books. Although sometimes their consistency leaves something to be desired, we cannot see inside a slabbed book therefore their opinion/label is all we have to go on. I think the "buy the book not the label" really only applies to the grade designation and visual appeal of the book, not the PQ. I think the key is - does PQ factor into the grade already? If i does, that should mean that between a W book and a OW book in 6.0.... the W book must have other issues holdin it back (since its not the PQ) and it might only be a 5.5 or lower structurally etc. if it had OW PQ. So there would be basis for saying that two equal graded books, it might be the one with the lowest PQ that must be better on other areas... ___ On the other hand i PQ does NOT factor into the grade, then it could be considered something extra and I would assume a price premium for equally graded books. I am not aware if it does or does not factor into the grade already, but I actually think it does.. PQ is not factored into the grade by CGC. Though books with exceedingly poor "page quality" (eg, "Dark Tan" or worse) are grade capped, these books are not usually high grade anyway. It is actually my belief that because "PQ" does not actually affect the grade, and because CGC is most notoriously inconsistent with the "PQ" they decide to slap on labels, that this is the reason why no real, significant or consistent price variations exist among books in like grades. -J.

Does anybody know for sure if CGC considers Hush's first appearance to be Batman 608 or 609 by any chance? Or when his first appearance actually was? -J. I think 609 as Tommy Elliot, and 619 as Hush. However, the CGC labels on those books doesn't mention first appearance for either. That's what I thought as well. Though he is on the cover of the 608 RRP. Would that not actually make that his first appearance ? -J. Depends what the print date of the RRP was. The 608 RRP is dated 12/02, the same date as the regular edition. 609 is dated 1/03. So unless I'm mistaken the 608 RRP would be Hush's first appearance, even if only on the cover. -J. The first print of 608 was released Oct 23. 609 was released Nov 27. You'll have to find out when the actual DC retailer summit happened in 2002 to figure out if the RRP technically pre-dates the release of issue 609. Oy vay. That may not even be possible. I can see why CGC doesn't say either way on the label. They may ultimately just base it on the listed release date of the comic. There really should be some official labeling on one of those books though when Hush's first appearance was. -J.

That is such a fresh and crisp looking, white-paged copy! PQ snob... I was at the market today and the first head of lettuce I picked up was brown on the bottom, so I sifted through a few others and found a fresh and crisp one. I must be a "Lettuce snob" too! The cashier at the front would have charged you the same for either. -J.

None of the other big-time GA books have the combination Cap #1 has: *No.1 issue of a series devoted to that specific superhero. *First appearance of a classic superhero. *Origin of a classic superhero. *First appearance of that superhero's arch nemesis (Red Skull). *Classic cover. *Impressive cover artistically/visually. Action #1 -- an anthology series, one hero story, classic but artistically simple cover. Tec #27 -- an anthology series, one hero story, no origin whatsoever. Superman #1 -- no 1st app., mostly reprinted material, no notable villains. Batman #1 -- not the 1st app., of the title character. Marvel #1 -- No top-tier characters, no noteworthy villains. In those respects, no other GA book is in Cap #1's league. And the combination of factors listed above are, to me, much more than "Oh yeah, that's neat" kind of stuff. Wayne-Tec, I hate to burst your bubble but Cap 1 will never have the iconic impact that Action 1 or Tec 27 have had on the hobby. No way. Their relative ages not being a part of the equation, I'm not so sure cap 1 had/has the iconic impact of AF 15 either. Ah hell I wish I could afford to own all those great books! -J.

Captain America's battles against the Nazis in Cap #1 are not much more era-specific than Superman's battles against Great Depression-related struggles in Action #1. Simply not fighting villains tied to a specific year is not what makes characters or stories "timeless", and by the same token, fighting villains or wars that actually took place during specific years does not disqualify a book from being timeless either. Unlike Action #1, Tec #27 and AF #15, which included only one hero-story a piece, Cap #1 features four hero stories—including the hero's origin (absent from Tec #27) and the 1st app. of his arch-nemesis (absent from Action #1, Tec #27 and AF #15). I am also with Wayne-Tec on this one. As a guy in his 30's if the opportunity arises, I would select owning a Cap 1 over a Superman 1, Batman 1 or a Marvel 1. IN addition to the reasons that he states, there is also the added desirability of owning the first appearance of Captain America over an issue '1' of a character that had already been out for a bit. I like the way Disney has handled cap's "dated-ness" in a tongue in cheek, self referential manner in the movies. It makes the character more fun. Though I do believe the prices on this book, particularly in the lower grades, have gotten a little ahead of themselves. I also find cap 1 to be far more desirable than a batman 1 and especially a superman 1, but not a marvel comics 1. That and detective comics 1 are super huge for entirely different and obvious reasons. And the recent spiderman movie notwithstanding, I don't think cap will ever surpass the global popularity of spiderman. With or without movies, spiderman will most likely always be marvel's top dog. Whereas cap's recent Renaissance in relevance is almost entirely due to the movies. -J.

Does anybody know for sure if CGC considers Hush's first appearance to be Batman 608 or 609 by any chance? Or when his first appearance actually was? -J. I think 609 as Tommy Elliot, and 619 as Hush. However, the CGC labels on those books doesn't mention first appearance for either. That's what I thought as well. Though he is on the cover of the 608 RRP. Would that not actually make that his first appearance ? -J. Depends what the print date of the RRP was. The 608 RRP is dated 12/02, the same date as the regular edition. 609 is dated 1/03. So unless I'm mistaken the 608 RRP would be Hush's first appearance, even if only on the cover. -J.

Does anybody know for sure if CGC considers Hush's first appearance to be Batman 608 or 609 by any chance? Or when his first appearance actually was? -J. I think 609 as Tommy Elliot, and 619 as Hush. However, the CGC labels on those books doesn't mention first appearance for either. That's what I thought as well. Though he is on the cover of the 608 RRP. Would that not actually make that his first appearance ? -J.