PopKulture

38,387 vs. 32,292 career points. Math is hard

Actually, you're wrong. I do a lot of "deflecting" when addressing tangents that are salient.

See, these are the sorts of arbitrary blindspots that make these discussions pointless. I guess it doesn't matter that Jabbar had more MVP's than Jordan? So naturally you switch to finals MVP's, That's a bit of hand-picking!

So you think "the shot" is all that impressive in hindsight?? C'mon. Like I referenced, you must REALLY be in awe when Durant swishes a three from eight feet behind the line in the finals.

I agree. If you see my earlier contentions, I give the edge to Kareem for his body of work. The GOAT is great throughout his career - not just when he learns to play nice with others later in his career. Will you at least admit Alcindor was the more impressive college player?

Actually, it maybe changes it an iota when Jabbar won titles with two teams with different coaches and different players around him and Jordan didn't.

So, one knock on Jordan was that he was a ball-hog early in his career, and basketball is a team game. Your second line tends in that direction. Jordan didn't win until others got involved. That part of his evolution is obvious - otherwise, Chamberlain is the GOAT for dropping fifty points a game for a season without winning the title. Scoring isn't the only metric. Pippen was a workhorse with an all-around game, a different style player, so to compare how many 50+ or even 30+ night they had is a bit ingenuous.

Haha! That's a pretty solid rebuttal, I admit. But the fact remains, Jordan never won a championship without Pippen, right? And never one without the greatest coach of all-time either, right? Oh, yeah, I forgot about those championships with the Wizards when he came out of retirement his second or third time....

Actually, Layton invented basketball when he was, like, -60 years old.

Did the DeRozan reference short-circuit your brain??

Babe Ruth.

Yes, Jordan doesn't reach the same heights without Pippen, but you did show how far Pippen could take a team in what everyone justly claims was a competitive league then. Getting knocked out in the second round without the "GOAT" isn't really an indictment: the glass half-full version of that is GETTING to the second round. Were the Bills a lousy team for losing four straight superbowls or a great team for making four straight? I'm not denying Jordan's greatness, but anyone who can't admit there is an inseparable element of hype there is just not being honest with themselves. It's always a matter of "my guy did this and it's awesome" and "your guy did the same thing but it's less impressive." For me, especially when you look at their whole career, Kareem's body of work gives him the edge in the GOAT conversation. Anyway, no one pays me to advocate for Jabbar anymore than I'd bet Jordan pays you, so there is admittedly a bit of folly to all these speculations!!

Those are some REALLY nice presenting copies for the grades! Good luck.

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Yes, those six championships and six MVP's don't compare, along with those three college championships, not to mention the most points ever in a career and third most rebounds?? Yep, no comparison against a guy whose most famous shots are something DeMar DeRozan can make any given night, along with twenty other players today. Wow, he made a twelve-foot jumper over Ehlo and pushed off Russell? I will, however, give him credit for making them. I saw them all, and the shots players like Curry and Durant drop routinely these days make MJ look a little outdated - something akin to what Cousy suffers from. Comparisons across eras suffer that way. And no way Jordan makes that running bank LBJ does, just sayin. Jordan's defensive prowess is a very strong asset, and noteworthy in these GOAT discussions, not his 6-0 record in the finals. I doubt he wins more than one without Pippen. To somehow accord Jordan the credit for them is bogus. Do you know of anything Jordan did without Pippen that was close to what Wade did nearly single-handedly against Dallas? Fact is, everyone in Chicago saw Pippen have more dominant performances without Jordan than Jordan had without Pippen. Jordan was great and in the conversation, but to ignore him being the beneficiary of certain circumstances ignores certain wisps of reality: he may or may not be the BEST of all time, but he was the most marketed, and right at a time when an ascendant NBA needed him to be great, truth be told. Therein lies perhaps his genius.

I don't think it should be the main criterion, but it should be considered in the general overview. As someone mentioned previously, Robert Horry had a knack for being in the right place, right team. He's got more rings than Ewing, Marino and Ted Williams put together! Heck, even Craig Counsell and countless others can make that claim...

Plus I will add that it's a generational thing: there's some magic line where age is the dominant factor in advocating for a GOAT. Let's arbitrarily say forty years of age: I guarantee more people under the age of forty (and thirty!) would advocate for James, while those north of forty would make the case for Jordan.

I shouldn't take the bait, but I will. It's neither James nor Jordan: the best body of work for a basketball player is Lew Alcindor aka. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. High school. College. Professional. You'll see he compares more than favorably on almost any of the aforementioned metrics, as well as one little career NBA stat: HE SCORED THE MOST POINTS EVER! Take a gander at what Alcindor did in college and even high school, and Jordan isn't even in the conversation. I mean, Jordan wasn't even the best player on his college team, and I say all of this as a Chicagoan, born-and-raised. Jordan had a darn dominant ten years, yes, but Wilt Chamberlain was more "unstoppable" during his best decade, and even the inevitable championship comparison breaks down against what the Celtics had built in a pre-free agency era. Jordan, I will agree, was the best marketed.

An overused term, sure, but in my opinion, four out of the five covers on the top row are classics. I guess I just love me some Cap'n Marvel!

So is it a stretch to imagine that money orders will make a comeback?

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Great package deals on both lots! Bronze is golden!