Get Marwood & I

Did he say only 99%...?

I understand, but it's true - they do reprint original US material. That isn't a reason not to love them though. Many of the UK weeklies I bought as a kid had UK-unique covers but the internal stories were reprints of original US stories and it's important that that is understood. That's no reason to love them any less, however. I think you can draw out all the positives on international comics - first publications in non-US countries, unique covers, amended content etc - but you must also accept the inherent facts. I doubt there are many collectors of non-US comics who care that the books they collect have reprinted content. They love them for what they are. You love them. I love them. CGC's Matt Nelson loves them. That love doesn't change, go away or get distilled because of the fact that they only exist in the first instance because the US of A produced the original books from which they represent content. And it is only right that those original US books alone own the 'first printing / appearance' designations. Your challenge, if you choose to accept it Shelby, is to balance the production facts with your love, positivity and knowledge of the books. You can present factual data without undermining your cause by saying things like this in your presentations "This copy of Die Fantastischen #229 is the first full appearance of Galactus in a German publication. It reprints the story originally presented in Marvel's Fantastic Four #49. Look at that wonderful alternative cover. How cool is that!" In my view there is absolutely no reason why the words 'reprinted content' should diminish the book in any true comic lover's eyes. Facts, knowledge, love. Remove the negative connotation by embracing the facts alongside all the many positive points of interest. If you shy away from using the word 'reprint' due to a perceived negative connotation you can be accused of pulling the wool over peoples eyes and giving the impression that the books are 'first printings' or appearances. Remember - you agreed with my assertion that CGC should label applicable international comics as, for example, "the first appearance in Brazil". That is the only way you educate people. No unnecessary ambiguity or avoidance of inconvenient truths. Educate people in your presentations with facts and then Marvel (heh heh) at those goddam wonderful 'foreigns'! That's me done now - anything I say beyond this will only be repetition. If any of it helps, brilliant. If not, it was a fun debate. Again, good luck Shelby

There are other people listening?

@HotKey See what you've done....

I prefer 'publication'. German Publication, etc.

If there were two different pence prices for the same comic Daphers (crikey, I'm cooking up the what ifs now) - say, a 15p and a 20p version both in the same run - then one would be a 'Pence Price Variant'. The term 'UK Price Variant' eliminates that scenario as, last time I looked, there was only one UK*. If the starting point is the US copy, then 'UK Price Variant' identifies the salient difference and covers all bases and establishes the distribution country to boot. *Get your jokes in now.

That's well thought out, and I like it mjoey. There are a number of ways it could be done, as I've debated many times, and I doubt we'll ever reach a universal consensus but I do like the logical thinking that underpins your approach there. Isn't the US dollar a currency, though? And why is it a given that, for example, your '$2.49 Price Variant' is in US currency? The salient part is the distribution country, not the currency. Pound Sterling Price Variants weren't, to my knowledge, distributed outside of the UK to all the other places that use / used the currency so you are introducing question marks. In my approach, the variants are defined by the four countries - US, UK, Canada, Australia. So I have four descriptors to your 8 of which three form a subset. I'm trying to use the simplest terms, with the least words possible, to identify what the book is and its headline distinction. They're all first printings, from the same run, and there are only four countries in play. I remember posting once about the emphasis difference between these two options: (UK Price) Variant (UK) Price Variant Big difference! All that said, in one of my earlier posts I said: "For me, as long as everyone knows what the production status of these books (UK/Can/AUS price variants) was (i.e. they are not / were not reprints) then I'd prefer if we didn't get too uptight about a descriptor which is pretty much physically accurate in every sense" That being the case, does this graph below help (click to enlarge)? The intention is to try to illustrate as simply as possible how UK/Canadian/Australian priced first printings can sit in both camps - they are part of the original US print run, and therefore are first printings, but were distributed outside of the USA so straddle the 'foreign' distribution camp. Does that work, or is it rubbish? And nobody mention 'Whitman'

Oh yes! Everything, I had. I see Eric has a run too, but he's missing the 'Whitman' #38 and the Fireside: He'll be scouring the 'web' shortly I had a few other bits, including this OA page - a real rib tickler: Of course, today that would be seen as baldist. And no pube jokes, please.

If they did that, the book would just be an original US copy with a sticker on it. The fact that the sticker existed, and that the book would have been UK distributed, wouldn't change anything. There has to be a printed difference for a book to be a variant. Anyone can stick a sticker on a book. We had price stamps in the UK, for a long period. Original cents copies were shipped over and stamped with a UK price like this: That doesn't make them a "UK copy" or price variant however. Only a printed UK price would do that. Hence my summary here: So, in respect of the same original print state (Marvel) books, we have the following in existence at different points in history: US copies US Price Variants (30/35 and the 1999/2000 ones) UK Price Variants Canadian Price Variants Australian Price Variants Everything else, not being part of the original print state, is by definition a reprint or a locally produced publication. I define price variants as being books that came from the original US print run but with a plate change for an alternate price to the main book. So we have US, UK, Canadian and Australian Price Variants, as per my summary above. I'm not a fan of the word 'editions' in this context as to me, that implies the book is an edition of something else. Most 'foreigns' are their own thing, albeit with reprinted, repackaged content. The UK publication 'Spider-Man Comic Weekly' is not a UK Edition as it is the only instance. It may reprint content from the Amazing Spider-Man, but it is not an 'edition' of it.

Me too Gan. And the smell and feel of them. International / foreign comics reprint original Marvel US content in full or in part. UK, Canadian and Australian Marvel Price Variants are the original content. They're all lovely though, however and wherever they were produced

....followed by a sticker of Spidey and a Mr Fantastic branded elastic band no doubt...

There were a few in the Spidey completist group as I recall. Some of the books we chased down had the most tenuous Spidey links imaginable. But this one was nailed on for me - hoo else would say hoo boy whilst snapping that shot?

I'm glad you used that phrase, Shelby - disservice - as it shows me you care about how comic books are treated which is why your argument deserves respect. I think CGC labelling an international book with the title of the US book's cover that it reproduces is also a disservice so we're in the same thematic ballpark. All I will say, as a final contribution on the matter, is that Hit Comics Die Fantastischen Vier #229 may well be an original German publication and a first printing in Germany. But the salient aspect in consideration of original US created material is that it partially reprints Marvel's Fantastic Four #49, the first full appearance of Galactus. The 10d priced UK Price Variant of Fantastic Four #49 however does not reprint that story as it is a first US printing. That is the difference you and I disagree on - I set a greater stall by the first (US) printing designation and that for me elevates UKPVs out of the 'foreign' grouping which, whilst being comprised largely of first printings in their home countries by title, are not the first printings of the original US material that they reproduce. There may only be one original German title called Hit Comics Die Fantastischen Vier with an issue #229, but it would not exist if not for the US Marvel first printing of FF#49 that preceded it. And that original first printing comprised a 12c US copy and a 10d UK copy. If you don't mind Shelby I'll decline the opportunity to comment further on hypothetical scenarios, especially ones so unlikely. It's hard enough clarifying our positions on what did and does happen without speculating on what ifs. Pride? Great. We may disagree on the terms, but I think we both love the books. Good luck with your future presentations.

Thank you very much

Ta. Much briefer than my long-winded attempts! I'll say again that I believe the intentions here are good, but the thinking is slightly flawed and is promoting the opposite of the intended outcome. If you get the basic premise wrong, everything that follows - no matter how well intentioned and heartfelt - will also likely be wrong. On a similar theme, I have an intermittent offline battle ongoing with Matt Nelson over his insistence on labelling international comics which reprint the first appearances of original US characters as 'first appearances'. My argument is that only the original US book should carry that honour / designation. His counter is that it is the first appearance in that (non-US) country. My further counter is "Well say that then!" Spot the difference: "1st appearance of the Justice League of America" "1st appearance of the Justice League of America in Brazil"

Like CGC, and again respectfully, I believe you are acting in good faith here Shelby but you are undermining your own good intentions by placing UKPVs under the 'foreigns' banner. You cannot on the one hand say you are doing what you can to correct the false reprint perception associated with them and then lump the books in with reprints. UK/Canadian/Australian Price Variants are a separate first printing comic entity, worthy of their own categorisation, and which should not be mentioned at all when discussing non-US publications which, by definition, are not first printings of the original, salient material. You're your own man, but I would urge you to reconsider where you place the emphasis. By all means mention UK/Canadian/Australian Price Variants in your seminars - but how you place the emphasis will be critical to your audience's understanding. Spread facts, not opinions, would be my advice.

It's an odd premise, Shelby, but if the books that Panini wanted the printers to print for UK distribution were the same as the US original books, i.e. the exact same guts with just a plate change for the UK cover price, then yes, those books would be UK Price Variants. That would just be a return to the 1960-1982 production method, if I understand your premise correctly - an issue is solicited with an instruction to the printers to run X copies with a US price and Y copies with a UK price. All part of one end to end print run. That is the nature of a variant, in my view. A book that comes from the same print run as the main book, but which has a smaller quantity produced with a specific difference for a specific reason.

One other thought, Hotkey. For many long years, people in the hobby have laboured under the misapprehension that every book printed for distribution outside of the US, with a non-US cover price, is a reprint. Consequently, what I now call UK Price Variants (pence copies) have historically fallen into that category. Reprints tend to fetch less money than first printing originals. So for many years, pence copies have lagged far behind their US cousins on the resale market. Look at these three books: The first one is the first US print of Amazing Spider-Man. It carries a high resale worth in the hobby. The second book is the Golden Record Reprint. Because it is a reprint, it is worth considerably less than the first printing original which is entirely understandable. The third book is the UK Price Variant. It is a first printing and, in theory, has the right to command a resale price comparable to the US copy. For many long years it lagged behind its US cousin due in part - but not completely - to the perception that it was reprint. That perception is slowly shifting and, as a result, the price of the UKPV is increasing and pence keys at least are now beginning to command comparable prices. So, Hotkey (sorry, I didn't catch your name) - if you put UK Price Variants in the 'Foreign Edition' category, and Foreign Editions are by definition books which reprint original US content - then you are undoing those many years of pushing for production clarity and financial parity by implying once again that they are reprints. Do you see?

Thank you for the kind words. My area of expertise is Price Variants. I know a little about non-US publications, notably how they differ to books produced from original US print runs, but others have a much greater knowledge of them than I ever will. Because they are part of the original US print run. UK/Canadian/Australian Price Variants are all first printings and therefore carry equal status to their US priced cousins. Any book that does not come from the original US print run is by definition a reproduction. They reproduce material, in full or in part, that was originally printed in the US. I cannot stress this distinction strongly enough, first printings versus subsequent printings. Try reading this additional explanation of mine, if you would: Additionally, this book below... ...should be classified as a Price Variant of this book.... ...because they were printed together, in the US, on the same presses. That is a very important distinction from both a production standing and subsequent financial standing. If we call it a 'Foreign Edition' - fully or sub-set - it then sits with this book below... ...and - in my opinion - completely loses that very important 'first printing' distinction. There is a factual element underpinning my argument, Hotkey. First printings are just that. Lumping them in with subsequent non-US publications does them a huge disservice and is more opinion based that factual. If you are going to stick your head above the parapet and publicise non-US books to those who may not fully understand them, you must be sure to present factual positions and arguments which can be justified. Otherwise you run the risk of misleading people.

Hello Hotkey Respectfully, I think you're doing a disservice to the hobby by grouping first print price variants in with 'foreign editions' (or 'international editions' as CGC now calls them). I've spent the best part of ten years trying to clarify the very big difference between a non-US priced book that comes from the same print run as its US priced counterpart, and subsequent overseas produced comics which reprint or repackage original US content. Indeed, I appear to have had a hand in getting CGC to finally adopt the 'price variant' label description for the Marvel UK, Canadian and Australian priced copies. It was a great shame, incidentally, to see them wind back on that distinction in their 'Certification of International Comic Books' statement which you will find here: https://www.cgccomics.com/international-comics/ I feel that you are doing the same thing as CGC in your presentation - muddying the waters by glossing over the key distinction between the two very separate publication groups. If you haven't already, perhaps you would take the time to read some of the work I have done in the "UK/Canadian/Australian Price Variant" area? Here is a good starting point: https://boards.cgccomics.com/blogs/entry/5028-john-morlars-journal-summary-page/ In addition, here is an extract below from a post I made elsewhere on the forum which I hope clarifies why I favour the 'Price Variant' terminology. Good luck with your presentations - we clearly have differing views on naming conventions but I can see that you are genuinely enthusiastic about the comics. If you do read the links, and have any questions, I'll be happy to comment further. Cheers, Steve ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It's OK to hold opinions that differ, as long as they can be backed up with rational thought. Like you, I favour the term 'UK/Canadian/Australian Price Variant' as it is the best and shortest group of words that I can think of which satisfy the salient factors which, for me, are to recognize their variant status (they are a small subset from the original print state and, therefore, a 'variant' in the correct sense of the word) and secondly to distinguish them from the locally produced publications and reprints of the countries that they were distributed to. There is more to it, more to say, but my arguments were sufficient to compel CGC to move away from "UK Edition" and, whilst they are by no means the be all and end all of comic categorisation, it shows that a professional organisation with growing influence in the industry were prepared to listen to a rational thought process and act on it by changing their systems. If we all get behind those terms, and understand the production status of the books in question, then surely that's a good thing, no? I accept the term is not perfect in that it encroaches, for want of a better word, on the 'purity' of the US price variant scenario. I understand that logic and thinking and have said so in my threads. When I first joined here my first pence thread was called "Marvel First Printing Pence Priced Distribution Variants". What a mouthful, trying as it was to cover every base. So I distilled it somewhat, to something more manageable. I accept that some dislike it and that it's simply not possible to come up with one short descriptor that will satisfy everyone. So I go with the best I can come up with, and justify it when challenged. For me, as long as everyone knows what the production status of these books was (i.e. they are not / were not reprints) then I'd prefer if we didn't get too uptight about a descriptor which is pretty much physically accurate in every sense. In a nut shell, the UK, Canadian and Australian priced copies were: Printed at the same time, in the same place, and by the same people as the US copies As a result of plate changes, they have small cover differences including but not limited to a non-US cover price This makes them variants - they vary in appearance from their majority US cousins The salient difference is the price - this makes them a price variant Because price variants exist in other forms, we have to add an additional descriptor to differentiate them In the case of the UK copies, UK is that additional obvious descriptor - hence 'UK Price Variant' So, in respect of the same original print state books, we have the following in existence at different points in history: US copies US Price Variants (30/35 and the 1999/2000 ones) UK Price Variants Canadian Price Variants Australian Price Variants Everything else, not being part of the original print state, is by definition a reprint or a locally produced publication. 'Spider-Man Comics Weekly', a UK produced title, may share a cover to an Amazing Spider-Man US original comic, but it is it's own thing - a UK local publication. CGC were calling UK Price Variants of ASM, and UK produced Spider-Man Comics Weeklies, 'UK Editions'. They were calling two different things by one misleading title. This is why I and others challenged them. This is why they changed their labelling approach. If we call UK Price Variants "Foreign Editions" then we lose completely the fact that they are part of the original print run. We have to link them to their majority US counterparts.

Sorry boys, the wife fell down the stairs and fractured her arm last week, so we've been a bit busy (she's OK, but it shook us up a bit). Being an ex-Spidey completist, I should know this. And I do! Brave & The Bold #64 (Feb/Mar 1966) beats that NBE by a year and a bit: Let the arguments commence!

You big wally, David In it? I thought you ran it

https://www.comics.org/issue/175371/

You do make me laugh, Albert. Thank Bod for our little Brit Bunch. I'm on the road today, so will check in tomorrow to see if 2p Hetty has studied the code and cracked off. It, sorry, cracked it.