heartened

29 minutes ago, Carlo M said:

You raise a good point.  It will never be a science.  Even the definition of A page is vague at best.  Take this standard size Kirby Thor page that sold at HA for 19k.  In my book this is an A page (four panels with title character in each panel, at least two strong shots, etc.). So this would belong to the 10-20 range, as currently envisaged.   Yet I take it some boardies have a stricter definition: an A page should be a super top example, with four panels, each showing the main character fighting his / her arch viallin (see the SM vs Venom example), strictly inked by the best inking match (like Byrne Austin or Lee Williams). If it is a group book, then most team members should be featured.   We are talking 4/5 examples per run at best.  Based on this definition, and based on the HA sale, Thor standard size A page by Kirby  would belong to the 20-40 k range, which does not feel right.

So I think the right approach is to remain a bit loose, keep wide ranges, and not try to be too scientific about it.  If people recognise that there will never be a mathematical formula to price this stuff, the list can be super fun to follow.

Agreed, this is an A page.  The other theoretic page would be considered an A+ page in my opinion.

1 hour ago, Heidjer Staecker said:

OK, Stupid question, and I am sorry if I missed this in these posts somewhere, but how have you determined the base costs to begin with?  Consensus?  For example (looking at the Sandman pages), I recently got a regular story page from the original series with no main characters for $700, which I thought is was an ok price.  So would that viewed as a base page that falls under the "C" level?

Yes, C would be pages that are placeholders, which is what you seem to be describing (no main character, not an important story, etc.).  Seems like a really good deal, but when you say the "original series" I'm not sure what you mean.  Let us know what issue number and artist.  The high prices for Sandman are really dependent on story arc and artist, and then content within that.

28 minutes ago, Chaykin Stevens said:

Isn't the Above $60k tier implicitly $60-80k, as the next tier is Above $80k?

Yes

18 minutes ago, fishbone said:

Great info, you two.  I think lowering it to 50K+ makes sense.  Will do that for now and see if others would like to chime in.

1 hour ago, fishbone said:

Can I get something clarified:

are we saying today that a single Mcfarlane Spidey page (not a splash, but an interior page) , say from ASM #316, that has both Spidey and Venom on the page, may possibly be valued in the 80K range ?

 

Thanks for doing this.

Well, yes, consensus "appears" to be over 60K for that kind of page, which would be an A page from the run.  These can come down if subsequent sales don't support those values.  Personally, I think they should level off around 50K+, but right now they are in the higher tier.  Where are you getting 80K from?  That would be an A+ page probably according to what people are saying so far.

If you think it's too high, please put your comments and rationale in a post, including price points (private or public) and I'm happy to move it to whatever tier the consensus arrives at.  Granted, the run up on ASM ASM/SM is very recent, so it's not as validated as some of the others.

1 hour ago, Taylor G said:

I have some personal knowledge of the bubble in the Irish real estate market in the oughts.  At the height of the so-called Celtic Tiger, real estate in Dublin was more expensive than Tokyo.  I would visit family there every year and ask if they were worried about the bubble bursting, and they would reply, Real estate in Ireland has never gone down in value.  Famously, the Irish Taoiseach in 2007 wondered why people worried about a bubble didn't just commit suicide.

 

This thread has nothing to do with past or future, it's about what the values are presently.  Where are prices by artist/run right now.  Some may go down, some may go up - granted the majority of popular art appears to keep going up right now.  Whatever people want to do with the data is up to them. 

6 minutes ago, GreatEscape said:

I'd agree with Dave's suggested 5-10k for A-level Heck twice-up Avengers / TOS / X-Men having acquired two examples (5k X-Men, 7k Avengers) in past 2 years.  No need to break-out but be aware of premium pricing (10-20k) for Heck's pre-49 TOS pages with Iron Man and Avengers 20-22 pages inked by Wally Wood.

OK, moved Heck 2Up Avengers / TOS / X-Men to 5-10K.

1 hour ago, dem1138 said:

Well, TOS #39 (grey armor) was complete last I heard (was FS on eBay a few times with a high Buy It Now but to my knowledge never sold) and I don't think those pages count as they'd likely be 100k each.  The Ditko pages from #47-49 are all out there and while they sell for less than Spidey pages, they would definitely be in the 10k-20k range as well.

Unfortunately for public sales, they just don't exist for A pages that I'm aware of.  A lot of pages from #42 have bounced around but the really good ones haven't surfaced in years.  I understand a few of the stronger pages sold between 5-10k privately, but this was probably 2-3 years ago that I heard about it.

Dave, so what Heck should be bumped to 5-10K?  LMK and I'll include.  And are we saying we should add Ditko TOS somewhere?

4 minutes ago, dem1138 said:

Since we're on the topic what about 2up Heck IM TOS pages?  3k-5k seems way too low for 'A' pages.  I would think 10-20k as well and would consider most of the 'A' pages as those from his silver armor issues (pre #48) as those seem to never come to market (at least publicly) anymore and Heck OA in general has taken a leap since Kirby and Ditko have gotten so expensive.  Heck Avengers would easily 5k-10k for 'A' pages.  3-5k would cover any early Heck Avengers pages but I've rarely seen any 'A' pages on the market for years.

 

Good points, do we have any sales?  Heck is not anywhere on our list yet, so we definitely have to include him.

Great info.  I have moved up the 2Up Colan art (both DD and TOS/IM) to 10-20K based on those confirmed sales.  Added a Colan regular size category to the 5-10K range.  This makes a lot of sense, and I'm glad we have fleshed out the Colan market.

14 hours ago, sfilosa said:

My first comment (probably won't be my last). "A" pages from Gene Colan Tales of Suspense (Iron Man) should be in the $10-20k. Great page several years ago sold on Heritage for over $20k, and a really nice page (but he is fighting a soldier not a villain) went for $12k six months ago at Heritage. I know I would buy several "A" pages for over $10k if they became available.

Great list. I'm building a spreadsheet of your info and will try to constantly track actual sales to see the trends. 

 

 

Thanks, and please do keep track of sales and LMK if things seem to be changing on anything here.  In our list, we have Colan TOS and 2Up Iron Man at the 5-10K range.  I would imagine all the TOS pages are 2Up, but are there separate early-run IM pages that are 2Up?  Should these all be bumped up?  Howa bout Colan Cap?  Where does that go?

1 hour ago, MDK@cgc said:

Great topic Heartened! Thank you so much for accumulating so much info in one thread... I can’t imagine how much time was/is spent doing so. It’s fascinating to hear everyone’s opinions on the subject... especially for an OA newbie.

I’m curious about the opinions regarding James O’Barr’s Crow. This work is of particular interest to me, but I’ve not been able to find too much information in the way of pricing/valuations for his published work. I’ve made plenty of private inquiries and those that own what I consider A and A+ panel pages place a value on the work above $5000, with many asking close to $10k or more. Private inquiries/sales may not be indicative of FMV, but the feedback I’ve received has been fairly consistent with asking prices between $5-10k. Again, I haven’t been able to find much in the way of published sales. Pricing also seems to be dependent or determined by, in part, whether or not the work is from the original 4 books (pain, fear, irony, & despair) published by Caliber Comics or book 5 (death) published by Tundra 2 years after. I’m not sure why that matters as both would be published OA and the art was, as I have come to understand, created at the same time, but it seems to have some affect. 
 

Anyway, just curious as to the Boards thoughts. Thanks again for taking the time to do this... it’s really great info.

Thanks, and call me Hari.  I don't know the Crow market, but with a lot of art cherished and in limited supply it may be exceedingly hard to pry art out of the few collections that have held them for years.  I have a lot of Miracleman, Grendel, and a few other comparable characters and what it would take to get them out of my collection vs. what they would fetch at auction may be two different things.  In general, you'll probably have to pay significantly more to get it out of me, because I myself would pay higher than FMV to get them myself!  With that said, I would not be surprised at the prices you are quoting. 

Let's hear what others say, if there are any experts on the Crow mini-series market.  I'll add him to the 3-5K for now, but consensus might vote to bump it up.

13 hours ago, Varanis said:

It never happened. Not sure why.

I mean really there are only few options: it's a fake/recreation (or authenticity too questioned), consigner pulled it back, consigner sold it privately, Fischler/Zurzolo kept it for themselves.  In all cases, you won't hear anything for a while.

On 1/14/2021 at 9:57 AM, Jasonmorris1000000 said:

One of my favorite covers off the rack, and have it as part of my collection, but doesn't this not qualify since it's a major book?

24 minutes ago, Bill C said:

Yeah, Strange Tales 101 and 114 aren't good markers for the list you're doing here, as those are obviously key books.

It's kind of like the Flash 137 panel page that went for 13.2K yesterday. That's an insane price for a SA Flash panel page- maybe a record? But once again, that is a key issue, and not only that, a key page in the story- one which sees the JSA reforming in the silver age. So I wouldn't use that one to prove A-list Flash Cinfa pages should be in the 5-10K range or over.

There were a couple other SA Cinfa Flash pages at HA yesterday, very arguably in the A-list area for content, which went for 3.8K (although this page may have some damage?) and 4.8K.

So while A-list (not A+) SA Flash pages could very easily regularly go over 3-5K, and they feel like they should (but I'm biased), and we've seen an A list battle page from #153 go way above that 3-5K grouping, the bottom line is we aren't really seeing that on the regular in public sales at this point.

Thanks Bill.  We were waiting for those price points in the HA to see where to go.  I will drop it down for now.  This is where we look at the list and shake our heads how Cinfa Flash can be so low.  And of course, that's how they start going up too LOL.

9 hours ago, dem1138 said:

Chuck, its funny but I never thought about it until now how where the publisher was likely affected how common the books were in that area.  I grew up near Comico (and regretfully never visited for literally no good reason) and Primer #2 and the 3 issues of Grendel were fairly common at shows in the area and I never even considered why that was until now.

New York shows definitely had it all.  I saw all those books back then but alas I didn't have much money.  I was able to get the Grendel issues and Primer 2, but not Albedo 2 for a while.  I had copies of TMNT 2 and up but could never snag a first (or even second) print TMNT 1.  I had only the smaller sized 3rd print.  Another really hot book back then was the DKR signed and limited number hardcover.  Haven't seen that for sale in a long time, but it was super-cool.

Question:  Do people think our tier for Ditko Dr. Strange is accurate or should drop to 80K+?   The page on HA sold for 55K, but maybe that was a B page.  Thoughts?

10 hours ago, mtlevy1 said:

 

Ahh...Byrne MTU pages inked By Austin = Issue 79 only right?

so is it really Austin or that it is a super cool Red Sonja story...either way it feels like an A+ situation...this list is going to get nuts if Hari breaks out every exceptional issue...but I'll live either way without a MTU 79 page

 

And this is where I'm out of my element.  Mark, I agree with you.  Safer to just have "those in the know" understand that the Austin inks on that issue make them A+ pages.  I'll drop it back down.  You are correct, key issues will always be higher and people have to just understand those exceptions.  I will adjust the intro "key" to discuss what an A+ page is in more detail.

33 minutes ago, hmendryk said:

So ST 101 page went for 17.4K, higher than you guessed but still in the 10-20K range. But the ST 114 page 28.8K. Does this affect positioning, or is this just a case of an art from a special key comic? I am not very knowledgeable about this subject and am just viewing this as a learning experience. I do have a personal interest as I have two pages from ST 114, perhaps not quite as nice as the one just auctioned off by Heritage but still pretty good. Not that I am interesting in selling either of them whatever the current value.

I suspect it's the Cap (tryout, acrobat) presence in that book that bumped it up.  My guess is that makes it a special case outlier A+ page for some.

11 minutes ago, stinkininkin said:

Paying extra because of the inker? Madness!

I believe the correct term is "tracer" LOL

Courtesy, Chasing Amy

2 hours ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

I disagree with this.

I would have a listing for Byrne MTU pages inked by Austin in the $10K+ level.

pages inked by others should be listed in the $5-$10K level

This sounds fair. ok.

Just now, Lee B. said:

Regarding Byrne MTU, good catch on the MTU #79 cover Yoram!  I admit I focus a bit more on non-Terry Austin-inked Byrne MTU pages and have been waiting for one of those panel pages to cross the $10K threshold.  But I haven't seen it yet, even with very strong pages, for example:

MTU #60--$9,300 (Nov. 2019) https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/john-byrne-and-dave-hunt-marvel-team-up-60-story-page-16-spider-man-and-yellowjacket-original-art-marvel-1977-/a/7212-94045.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

MTU #68--$9,000 (Aug. 2019) https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/john-byrne-and-bob-wiacek-marvel-team-up-68-story-page-13-spider-man-original-art-marvel-1978-/a/7211-93034.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

MTU #61--$8,866 (Mar. 2019) https://comiclink.com/Auctions/item.asp?back=%2FComicTrack%2FAuctions%2Fbids.asp&id=1299271

MTU #63--$8,400 (Feb. 2019) https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/john-byrne-and-dave-hunt-marvel-team-up-63-story-page-10-iron-fist-and-davos-original-art-marvel-1977-/a/7204-93025.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

So I would concur with Varanis (who has no need to apologize!) that an action-packed splashy Byrne/Austin page from MTU #79 is an outlier and an A+ (A++?) example for now, but maybe not for long.  Best, Lee

ps. I appreciate your thoughtful work on this list Hari!

 

Wow, great data points!  Ok, will keep it where it is for now.  But, we are getting quite close to the next tier for sure!

16 hours ago, robert frey said:

well, the one today sold for 24k.... and the antman page (i am the owner of that one)  was also over 20k. as i said, there have been and are neal adams avengers pages on dealer websites that seem to cost around 12-15k- good pages for sure but not A-level pages and that is what we are talking about here. i'll defer to the adams experts but it there seems to be an uptick in the prices of his art.

So, I guess the question is whether Neal Adams Avengers have moved up to the same as X-Men (20-30K), leaving GL and Batman pages in the 10-20K range.  Looks like heading in that direction.  I'm a little hesitant but if others confirm I'm happy to move up for now.  Trust me, I'm willing to push things down as much as push things up, so these can continue to be mutable as new prices are realized.