heartened

13 hours ago, Varanis said:

That sounds like an exception and shouldn't be a reason to put all MTU Byrne at 10-20k.

Gorgeous page.  Yeah, I would say it's an A+ page.  But, this list can keep changing so we can continue to keep track.

5 hours ago, F For Fake said:

It's an interesting question, and I have conflicting feelings.

On one hand, Grendel is absolutely one of my all time favorite stories and comic series. The scope and imagination of the Grendel Saga, as it progressed from the humble beginnings of Primer 2/Comico Mini/Mage back-ups, into what it would become at Dark Horse, is mind boggling. A weird sci-fi crime noir eventually evolved into a rumination on the centuries-long ramifications of evil. It's pretty heavy, and crazy, stuff.

So, to be sure, I love Grendel, and my Primer 2 is one of my absolutely favorite back issues that I own.

BUT...as for the prices, I don't really know what's keeping them aloft. True ,they're nowhere close to TMNT and Usagi prices, but they're still much higher than you might expect for a character that hasn't been particularly relevant for 25 years.  In the last ten years there have been, what, 2 mini-series involving the character? One was a crossover with The Shadow, another was a revisit of Grendel Prime. Before that, you have to go all the way back to 2007 for the last Grendel Mini Series. That's not a lot of action on the publishing front. The character is basically invisible to current readers. The only people who care are likely the same folks like me who were reading it in the 80's, and have stuck it out. And as a result, Primer still stays pricey due to a memory of how popular the character once was, whereas most everythign from the Comico ongoing through all of the DH books would be considered dollar bin fodder.

So, the character isn't really relevant to current comics, so why do the prices on Primer and the 3-issue mini stay up? Is it simply because of that nostalgic love of how great the series used to be? Is it because Primer and the mini are still relatively hard to find compared to other characters from the era? I'm not sure.

What I DO know is that given the current value on these books, absent of any real presence in the world of comic books today, any sort of media announcement would be pretty huge. In the current market, tv and movie announcements send prices on relatively easy books to go sky-rocketing. If Grendel were suddenly optioned for an HBO miniseries, those high prices are going to get crazy high, I'd reckon. He won't ever touch TMNT numbers, but I could see the title once again sharing a spotlight with Usagi.

And to that end, if there were a media adaptation, HBO mini would be my preference. I'd like to see the story begin with Christine, telling Hunter's story in flashback. And then just let it all unfurl from there. You could do entire seasons on Hunter, Christine, Brian, Eppy, etc before even getting to Grendel Prime, Grendel Khan, and all of the future stuff. It could be really, really cool.

Again, all just conjecture and speculation. My series is pretty much complete (there are a couple of random Dark Horse issues I haven't picked up, but haven't been in any hurry to get as they aren't worth anything), so I'm satisfied. But mostly I wish more people were tuned in to Matt's awesome world of Grendel

Nice post.  I agree.  Back in 2007 I was speaking to Matt at a convention, probably NYCC or SDCC, and he was really trying to pitch Grendel for a movie.  That obviously never happened, but I agree the plots a great fodder for a mini-series.  The initial Hunter Rose Devil by the Deed is great, as is the Christine Sparr storyline.  I'm surprised that with all the possible venues it can't find a home.  But then again it depends on how good the pitch is.

48 minutes ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

A-level pages from MTU 79 absolutely sell for $10K+

I'm not familiar with the market here, is 79 a special key book in that run?  If so, might qualify as a special case (making them A+ pages, 50-100% more valuation).

1 hour ago, robert frey said:

My comments would be that any semi-decent Neal Adams Avengers page easily breaks 10k right now, let alone a great one. The one sold today was pretty good but I personally would not call that an A-level page. I think the A-level price range would be higher........... and same for Perez as well- no disrespect to the seller of page on HA right now but that page is almost at the bottom of the A-level range and that is not an A-caliber page in my opinion.

We have N. Adams Avengers in the 10-20K range, are you saying that you think it should be higher?  Usually the Avengers pages have been less than his X-Men or Batman pages, but perhaps that is changing.  Let's hear some opinions or documented sales.  PS, I did like the one on Heritage and personally felt it was an A page.  But, again, some of this is subjective for sure!

1 hour ago, Lee B. said:

Hi Hari!  Do we have many, or any, confirmed examples of Byrne MTU panel pages breaking the $10K mark?  I follow these pages pretty closely and have not seen this myself, although some pages at auction have come close.  Thanks, Lee

You know, I questioned that too.  I'm gonna push that down to the 5-10K tier until people can document or confirm prices higher.  So now they are in the same tier as Byrne AF.  Thanks Lee.  Hope you are well!

15 minutes ago, stinkininkin said:

I agree that this Heritage page is a rock solid A page. I would happily make it a part of my collection and I lusted after it in another collectors possession for many years. I don't think I would call it an A+ page, but I would have a hard time arguing with someone who saw it as such. This is one of the limitations this price guide has, differentiating between A and A+ pages, as it can be pretty subjective. Not a perfect system, but we should not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Anyway, you need multiple data points to determine what a piece is worth to you and how far you are willing to stretch, not just this price guide or a given sale at Heritage.

Completely agree.  I have bumped up Wrightson to the over 30K tier based on this consensus.

Judging by the current bid on the Wrightson A level panel page on Heritage right now, I'm thinking we may need to bump Wrightson Swamp Thing into the 30K+ category.  Let's see.  Looking at the others in the 20-30K range, Wrightson Swamp Thing does look like the one ready to move to the next level.  Although I suppose the current auction listing could qualify as an A+ page.

1 hour ago, dem1138 said:

It took the hobby a little while to catch on but for all of us kids who were psyched about TMNT, Usagi was the best "copy cat" anthropomorphic "ninja" to follow them so we all were instant fans who wanted Albedo #2.  In fact, I'd say the older collectors who were writing these newsletters didn't really "get it" right away and so their attention was on Albedo #0 and #1 due to rarity, which was therefore more expensive, but again made no sense to us because no one cared about the animals in those books!  If you looked at a CVM or CBG six months later, Usagi's appeal was much more apparent.

Totally agree.  Was just giving you a hard time.  It is interesting that after all these years, really only TMNT and Albedo have stood the test of time and grown in popularity.  Grendel still around but the different incarnations over time (figuratively and literally) always hurt the characterization and resultant fanbase.  The Crow, I suppose, has lasted but more due to the movie.  Cerebus, is unfortunately out of sight out of mind.  Concrete and Tick were great, but also declined as the stories disappeared. No denying this was such a creative time period though.

47 minutes ago, dem1138 said:

Blasphemy!  Yes, as crazy as the market was at the time, the early prints of #0 primarily and #1 secondarily were "hot" but #2 was always desirable as well and just as hard to find.  #3 was where the issues became much more common.  But Usagi was an instant hit and that led to Critters #1 and his own series.  I remember finding a #2 and being far more excited than seeing an early print of #0.

hahaha, curiously, I see no mention of Albedo #2 in the posted image above you?  Maybe they didn't realize #2 was the really hot book

11 hours ago, Legion HQ said:

Ditto for Fish Police!

  

Fish Police was great!!  Beautiful covers too.  Albedo was hot but #0 and #1 were the two really expensive books.  The appeal of #2 only came years later.

I've always loved these books.  Probably my favorite character of the 80s.  What do you guys think about the long-term potential of Grendel (Hunter Rose)?  It used to be as popular as TMNT and Albedo back in the day and has since fallen quite behind.  Thoughts?

I have several themes:

1. 80s independent art including the black and white boom.

2. First appearance of major characters.

3. Great stories by Alan Moore, paired with amazing artists.

4. Comic artists and an example of their "best" work (their classic peak period).

5. Frank Miller stories and art, especially with Miller inks.

I'm mostly content these days, and just pick up a few things a year.

4 hours ago, Bill C said:

From my perspective, one of the biggest changes in the hobby over the time I've been in it (which is closer to maybe 12, not 20 years- at least not "full time") is that it seems people are a bit more open and less secretive with data points.

Now of course I could be wrong, as over that time I went from having no contacts to making a large amount of contacts, so that may be a bias. But it does still seem people are more willing to cheerfully help out- even those we compete against (on a friendly level) for art.

That's good to hear.  And yes Bill I remember when you first got involved.  And when you first started CAF.  Good times.

1 hour ago, alxjhnsn said:

Updated the post with links to both the original "A-list" thread and the newer "Part 2" thread.

this is an amazing thread (and updated initial post) Alex and you are to be commended for putting this together for the hobby.  Knowledge is power in this hobby, and for too long people didn't want to share that knowledge.  I believe the opposite.  The more people coming into and enjoying and understanding the hobby without getting burned the better.  

47 minutes ago, alxjhnsn said:

I consider it a useful list and include it in my master list of sources for pricing information which I keep on this board. 
 

You can read it here. If there are other sources that I should include, please let me know. 

Thanks Alex.  You have the link to the 2014 thread.  Can you add this "Part 2" thread as well for a more contemporary valuation?  Very nice work putting that together!!

Ugh, covid takes another one early.  Age 61.  I remember his run on Classic X-Men, that's where I know his work most.  RIP.  As a clarification I mentioned covid because his wiki page mentions this was a cardiac complication of covid, not a sudden heart attack or arrest on its own.

2 minutes ago, Varanis said:

Where do full splashes fit on the scale? Assuming the content of the splash is good, are they A+? 

Yeah, in general I would think so, but again it depends on content.  Some interior A pages are better than the splash, which could drop all the way to B if there is no main character IMO.

23 hours ago, GreatEscape said:

I always welcome shared insights and opinions whether aligned or in contrast with my own.  A price guide for what ultimately are one-of-a-kind items is unrealistic.  Rather, I believe there is value in exploring perceived A-level page values by popular artists/runs derived from collective experience and market data to serve as a helpful resource. I can think of several reasons including:

(1)  Relative values.  The tiering approach (as Lago32 introduced in 2014) aims to provide high-level groupings of artist/runs with perceived similar values.  It is not a proxy for demand, scarcity or even desirability.  Naturally, there are other factors (characters, content, aesthetics, nostalgia, etc.) that affect personal interest and value for every collector.  This list offers relative value tiers that I find useful for budgeting (want list), auctions (price expectations) and sizing up potential transactions.

(2)  Breadth.  The diversity of art across ages, genres, artists, titles, publishers, etc. is staggering to me, and most collectors only develop specialized knowledge/focus in a few areas....but still want to understand market dynamics in other areas.  This list brings together view points across many titles and artists that I won't necessarily follow in detail.  Personally, I like having a quick reference sheet for future deals and/or knowing that recent auction results for say Jones Sandman or Tradd Moore SSB "blew the lid off" its assigned tier implying it's an A+  or otherwise noteworthy example to check out.

(3)  Collective input.   True consensus is impossible but the list does reflect collective and voluntary (if not democratic) input.  I know Hari, Gene, Scott and as experienced collectors that bring valuable perspective and applaud them for taking initiative to update the list and coordinate input from others.  I don't see anything self-serving and rather encourage folks to advocate / debate if additional facts or first-hand experience suggest otherwise.  Input from dealers who speak to recent (and verifiable) sales rather than what's in inventory should be welcome...besides, there are so many hybrid collector-dealers or dealer-collectors these days.

(4)  Current perspective.   People already say "2020 values are obsolete", so other backward-looking references (HA archives, CAF Market Data) become even less useful.  As a steady and active buyer, I'm keen on market awareness to better inform my decision-making and price discipline, and this list does that along with direct input from fellow collectors.  Hopefully, this reference tool will be continually updated to ensure its relevance.

(5)  Trend lines.  Aside form the list itself, I enjoy looking at how perceived values for certain artists/runs have changed since the original 2014 list...what has increased or decreased more relative to others, even while the overall market values have risen.  For certain artists whose work spans different decades and titles, it helps to know how the market their work.  For example, BWS values have been volatile in recent years with Conan and Weapon X experiencing different trend lines.  So, what about his Avengers, Machine Man and X-Men pages?  It's this type of questions this list aims to inform.

Suffice it to say that I'm supportive of this and look forward to continued dialogue and constructive debate....it's the reason many of us joined this forum and post art to share and engage with other collectors.   

Great post.  Thanks for summarizing so eloquently.

3 hours ago, Carlo M said:

Here is where I have a bit of a problem with the list.  I think the list refers to a quality level for interior pages that is very very rarely seen publicly.  Can someone give us an example of a mid '70s Kirby interior panel page fetching a mid teens number?  I really don't recall that.  Can we get a few examples of what an A page is? Because if people are referring strictly to four panels with the hero fighting his archenemy in each panel (so basically Spider Man vs Green Goblin or full X-Men vs Magneto with Phoenix or Wolverine claws out, or Avengers vs Ultron screaming "Avengers assemble" or FF vs Doom with the Thing shouting "its clobbering time"), then the prices make sense, but people need to be aware that we are talking about a very select number of pages (like 4/5 per run).  Such high quality pages are hardly comparable with anything else, and you can get huge variance in pricing (hence ranges are appropriate).  A few examples would be very very useful to keep the list within the right context.

Hi,

Yes, as Malvin says below, an A page is a "special keeper page" which kind of has what everyone wants by that artist on that run.  I defined it as top 20% of pages by that artist.  But, I totally agree that people should call a challenge if they don't agree or haven't seen an example of a page going for the tier we are placing them in.  To be honest, challenging these values is the only way to move them up or down.  And, to be clear, they don't always have to move up.  Happy to move things down if the tide turns and consensus shows we put it too high.  To Voudou's previous point, we do have to be careful here and not simply put art in people's "wishful thinking" tier. 

So please, chime in as we are starting to do!!  This is exactly what we have needed. 

I don't collect 70s Kirby, so let's hear what the experts of that era think (with examples where available).  It may very well be that not just DC but also Marvel work drops to the 5-10K tier.

3 minutes ago, Chaykin Stevens said:

Should Kirby's entry in the $10-20k tier specify 70s Marvel work, as his 70s DC work is in the tier below that?

Yes, that is true.  I will make that edit.

3 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

That’s a pretty expensive proposition. I save scans off what I have, either at 300 or 600 dpi. I doubt I’m the only one. The publishers presumably have them, too, for reprint purposes. That isn’t enough? 

Correct, for most modern art they have hi-res scans.  For the old stuff, I think those days are gone.  They have mostly been broken up so more people can enjoy them and of course for the profit that someone made by breaking them off and selling individually.  I only have one complete story (LOEG 1st series, book 5) and I also have the cover to it, and am keeping it intact for that very reason.  But if the time comes to sell, I'm quite sure the next owner would break it up.

Are you asking about preserving complete OA stories?

1 hour ago, vodou said:

So it's mud. But let's use it anyway?

Hari, your list. Do with it what you will. I have no issue with you, your approach, or the list you're maintaining. But I will always call them as I see them. This post and previous you quoted: exactly as I see them. Now others can read the minority report and find their own balance

Absolutely!  I'm just saying let's let people post then yes call them out if they seem high or low or whatever.  

Also, guys, this isn't my list.  I'm just the person who updates it.  Any concerns with the list or the process feel free to message me privately too.  I want it to be accurate and everyone to feel it is our list as a group.