LordRahl

$700 Million is considered under-performing these days? I predict that if comic book movies continue to bring in $700M in box office (not to mention licensing and DVDs etc) they will continue to make them until the end of days.

2 Economy subs

 

Received 1/21

Shipped 4/10

 

 

3.5 months. I don't know if that is good or bad...

 

It went pretty quickly for me.

Maybe that is because it was 2.5 months and not 3.5

2.5 months for not FT seems quick

When did they stop showing the grades when the books get graded and start waiting until shipment?

If you knew how to do something which was in demand to the point where people paid you to do it based on the skill rather than just the labor, would you teach them how to do it?

 

That's how it works routinely in the Arts and Sciences.

 

For CGC though, not at all.

Nor in software either which is where I work. Software companies don't just go giving out their code to people or business partners. IP is IP, whether it be software or resto detection. If I were them I wouldn't disclose it either. Why give up your competitive advantage?

This is all I want: what exact physical characteristics make it trimmed? Like, tiny chips off edge from being cut after ink dried or color of edge paper lighter than other edges or smoothness of edge not compatible with other edges? SOMETHING.

Yeah, hang on for those. They'll be releasing detection methods right after their grading criteria. Just be patient.

Jesus.

Can't anyone just do something cool one time for the hell of it? Huh? for the people that keep them in business??

They already explained it to you.

'Extra scrutiny' is applied whenever the 'extremely subtle' is confronted.

I just wanna know what their scrutinizing revealed, that's all. So we can all better understand what happened then maybe we can watch out for it.

 

If you knew how to do something which was in demand to the point where people paid you to do it based on the skill rather than just the labor, would you teach them how to do it?

Yes because it would not impact my business. Being able to detect stuff and having a business that slabs stuff are separate. An auto shop can explain to me what was wrong with my car and I wont jeopardize their business. I dont have a shop. People still have to come to them to get their car fixed, regardless of what I know about cars.

You are incorrect about the bolded part, no they don't. Not if they knew how to fix it themselves and didn't mind doing the work. Your analogy is weak as there is a lot of labor involved in fixing a car that people would not want to do even if they knew how to fix it.

Whereas in detecting trimming in a comic book, there is no labor involved. A minute or two of your time, if you knew how to do it.

This is all I want: what exact physical characteristics make it trimmed? Like, tiny chips off edge from being cut after ink dried or color of edge paper lighter than other edges or smoothness of edge not compatible with other edges? SOMETHING.

Yeah, hang on for those. They'll be releasing detection methods right after their grading criteria. Just be patient.

Jesus.

Can't anyone just do something cool one time for the hell of it? Huh? for the people that keep them in business??

They already explained it to you.

'Extra scrutiny' is applied whenever the 'extremely subtle' is confronted.

I just wanna know what their scrutinizing revealed, that's all. So we can all better understand what happened then maybe we can watch out for it.

If you knew how to do something which was in demand to the point where people paid you to do it based on the skill rather than just the labor, would you teach them how to do it?

I don't think you will find anyone here who would argue that CGC isn't the best 3rd party grading service, I mean who is their competition?

 

This is exactly what I've been asking. This discussion between you and I hasn't been about who is better than CGC because there isn't.

 

If you don't use CGC (or any established, credible 3rd party service) then what are your options?

 

You are either relying on someone else or yourself. Those are your options.

 

In other words, unless you have someone spectacular in your back pocket (like Fishler) there are no other viable options.

 

 

How much would one have to (theoretically) pay Fishler per hour for resto detection on books he isn't selling you?

 

 

This sounds like a question for kav!

 

On a side note.... I'd like to hear what Zaid has to say about this particular incident. I don't see him post much anymore.

My concern is that the practice of micro-trimming will be met by a wave of indifference.

 

 

I don't see how any other outcome could come of this. If CGC is admittedly unable to consistently detect trimming, then consumers only have 2 choices:

 

1. Indifference

2. Stop using CGC

 

Is there another option I'm missing?

 

Chris, by the way hope all is well in T.O

 

I don't think things will occur in those absolutes, though I agree that those are options. The third factor is cost and, or money. Let's assume that CGC is not able to detect micro trimming to the same degree as non-dis assembly pressing - that is a very shocking idea, but again we don't know how many books CGC is missing (I'm hopeful that number is lower, but this recent incident probably demonstrates that it is higher than the general collecting public believes).

 

I think cessation of the certification of comic books would probably take even more than that. However, the resulting problem would largely be fought in the marketplace. Your two options, and they are two good ones play out something like this. A) Indifference. We've seen it before (sm. bit of glue to GA, NDP etc) during the latter argument people scoffed at trimming, no way that was the Rubicon - pressing not resto, trimming is in another stratosphere. Is it now years later? I don't know, but I could see indifference. Of all the posts in this thread the most disturbing is Mike's (Dr. Banner) who compares the road coins have taken to the road comics are now on. I hope Mike is wrong, but where money is involved I NEVER underestimate human nature's ability to corrupt. Are we being prepped for micro trimming acceptance? I am NOT a religious person, but pray to the comic gods that is not the case.

 

B) Stop using CGC. The domino's need to fall here in a pretty clean line. Trimming erodes market confidence ... customers are paying less for slabbed books .... dealers are slabbing less books. There are a bunch of variables along the way, but for consumer confidence to put CGC on the street that is what is going to need to happen.

 

I've always viewed this aspect (people looking for ways to restore books and retain Blue labels) kind of like hacking into the Matrix. People are always looking for doorways, and CGC is constantly trying to eliminate their techniques - or tell us, "there is no spoon" when things go awry. As I said earlier, I hope they exercise due diligence and use this as a quality control tool to make their product more consistent. I support and always have supported certification, BUT not to the extreme of Indifference.

For what it's worth I don't think indifference to micro-trimming will happen. Trimming is too ingrained in the collecting public as a bad thing (whether you think it's destruction or restoration) for this to happen. Pressing wasn't.

I don't think you will find anyone here who would argue that CGC isn't the best 3rd party grading service, I mean who is their competition?

 

This is exactly what I've been asking. This discussion between you and I hasn't been about who is better than CGC because there isn't.

 

If you don't use CGC (or any established, credible 3rd party service) then what are your options?

 

You are either relying on someone else or yourself. Those are your options.

 

In other words, unless you have someone spectacular in your back pocket (like Fishler) there are no other viable options.

 

How much would one have to (theoretically) pay Fishler per hour for resto detection on books he isn't selling you?

Before I bother doing that math.....

 

How many comic collectors get paid to detect trimming?

 

But that isn't the point nor what we were arguing. You asked why people would pay CGC to do something they can't reliably do and I answered that it is because they can do it a whole lot better than 99.9% of collectors. I stand by that. Most collectors can't detect most resto, let alone micro-trimming.

 

That's exactly the point I was arguing

 

You are going to have to explain that one to me. If that's where you were going, that most collectors can't spot resto, then why ask why people would continue to pay to have their books slabbed? The answer should be obvious.

 

Not to mention that resto check isn't the only thing that you get. The third party grade is just as important. But that is a different discussion.

 

The point your trying to make is that CGC can detect trimming more accurately than 99.9% of collectors. You're making that point to support their service.

 

My point is that your statistic isn't significantly supportive.

 

How is it not significantly supportive? You can do something better than 99.9% of the people that want to do that thing (whatever it may be). That isn't significant? I think maybe your definition of significant needs to have its expectations lowered

Before I bother doing that math.....

 

How many comic collectors get paid to detect trimming?

 

But that isn't the point nor what we were arguing. You asked why people would pay CGC to do something they can't reliably do and I answered that it is because they can do it a whole lot better than 99.9% of collectors. I stand by that. Most collectors can't detect most resto, let alone micro-trimming.

 

That's exactly the point I was arguing

 

You are going to have to explain that one to me. If that's where you were going, that most collectors can't spot resto, then why ask why people would continue to pay to have their books slabbed? The answer should be obvious.

 

Not to mention that resto check isn't the only thing that you get. The third party grade is just as important. But that is a different discussion.

Before I bother doing that math.....

 

How many comic collectors get paid to detect trimming?

 

But that isn't the point nor what we were arguing. You asked why people would pay CGC to do something they can't reliably do and I answered that it is because they can do it a whole lot better than 99.9% of collectors. I stand by that. Most collectors can't detect most resto, let alone micro-trimming.

And actually I have some serious doubts as to whether the dealers would be able to spot micro-trimming. But for the sake of argument let's say some can. The numbers will still be overwhelming. 99.9% is about accurate.

My concern is that the practice of micro-trimming will be met by a wave of indifference.

 

 

I don't see how any other outcome could come of this. If CGC is admittedly unable to consistently detect trimming, then consumers only have 2 choices:

 

1. Indifference

2. Stop using CGC

 

Is there another option I'm missing?

 

I'm not entirely sure what CGC has to do with it.

 

Let's say CGC went belly up tomorrow. Then what? High grade Silver and Gold will still sell for thousands of dollars, tens of thousands even. Do you think people will stop micro-trimming because CGC folded? If anything they will do it more.

 

This thread pertains to CGC

 

HG Silver & Gold will NEVER reach the same hammer prices raw that they have with CGC.

 

The same? No. But that doesn't mean they won't sell for a lot of money. You seem to be equating micro-trimming with something that happens because of CGC. Micro-trimming will still happen if CGC folds tomorrow. Just because an FF 1 in NM "only" sells for $25K instead of $125K does not mean there will be no financial incentive to monkey with it.

 

I'm not sure that we disagree.

 

I'm trying to understand why consumers would continue to submit their books to CGC if CGC can't consistently detect trimming.

 

If CGC = raw in regard to micro-trimming, then wouldn't consumers rather pay 25K for a NM FF 1 than 125K?

 

Because even if they can't detect it all the time, they can detect it a lot more consistently than 99.9% of the collecting community.

 

99.9%?

 

C'mon now. Please don't just make mess up.

 

I'm really not making up that number. How many people in this hobby do you think can reliably tell if a book was micro-trimmed? Honest question. Give me your opinion.

 

First I'd have to know how many people are in this hobby.....

Well that's kind of where I'm going with this. I think the number of people that can accurately detect it is a list we the board members can probably come up with. It will number less than 100 people, of that I'm sure. It would need to be either resto people like Matt, Trace Heft, Susan Ciccone etc. or long time dealers who deal in Silver and Gold predominantly that have seen literally tens of thousands of books and would know what to look for (Storms, Yee etc).

There are how many comic collectors do you think? 400-500K? 1M? Do that math.

Not to mention that micro-trimming is only one of a myriad of things that could be done to a book. Most of those other things are caught much more reliably.

 

Like pressing?

I haven't made up my mind one way or another as to whether I consider it resto or not (it just doesn't matter that much to me), but let's not get down that rat hole.

My concern is that the practice of micro-trimming will be met by a wave of indifference.

 

 

I don't see how any other outcome could come of this. If CGC is admittedly unable to consistently detect trimming, then consumers only have 2 choices:

 

1. Indifference

2. Stop using CGC

 

Is there another option I'm missing?

 

I'm not entirely sure what CGC has to do with it.

 

Let's say CGC went belly up tomorrow. Then what? High grade Silver and Gold will still sell for thousands of dollars, tens of thousands even. Do you think people will stop micro-trimming because CGC folded? If anything they will do it more.

 

This thread pertains to CGC

 

HG Silver & Gold will NEVER reach the same hammer prices raw that they have with CGC.

 

The same? No. But that doesn't mean they won't sell for a lot of money. You seem to be equating micro-trimming with something that happens because of CGC. Micro-trimming will still happen if CGC folds tomorrow. Just because an FF 1 in NM "only" sells for $25K instead of $125K does not mean there will be no financial incentive to monkey with it.

 

I'm not sure that we disagree.

 

I'm trying to understand why consumers would continue to submit their books to CGC if CGC can't consistently detect trimming.

 

If CGC = raw in regard to micro-trimming, then wouldn't consumers rather pay 25K for a NM FF 1 than 125K?

 

Because even if they can't detect it all the time, they can detect it a lot more consistently than 99.9% of the collecting community.

 

99.9%?

 

C'mon now. Please don't just make mess up.

I'm really not making up that number. How many people in this hobby do you think can reliably tell if a book was micro-trimmed? Honest question. Give me your opinion.

Not to mention that micro-trimming is only one of a myriad of things that could be done to a book. Most of those other things are caught much more reliably.

My concern is that the practice of micro-trimming will be met by a wave of indifference.

 

 

I don't see how any other outcome could come of this. If CGC is admittedly unable to consistently detect trimming, then consumers only have 2 choices:

 

1. Indifference

2. Stop using CGC

 

Is there another option I'm missing?

 

I'm not entirely sure what CGC has to do with it.

 

Let's say CGC went belly up tomorrow. Then what? High grade Silver and Gold will still sell for thousands of dollars, tens of thousands even. Do you think people will stop micro-trimming because CGC folded? If anything they will do it more.

 

This thread pertains to CGC

 

HG Silver & Gold will NEVER reach the same hammer prices raw that they have with CGC.

 

The same? No. But that doesn't mean they won't sell for a lot of money. You seem to be equating micro-trimming with something that happens because of CGC. Micro-trimming will still happen if CGC folds tomorrow. Just because an FF 1 in NM "only" sells for $25K instead of $125K does not mean there will be no financial incentive to monkey with it.

 

I'm not sure that we disagree.

 

I'm trying to understand why consumers would continue to submit their books to CGC if CGC can't consistently detect trimming.

 

If CGC = raw in regard to micro-trimming, then wouldn't consumers rather pay 25K for a NM FF 1 than 125K?

Because even if they can't detect it all the time, they can detect it a lot more consistently than 99.9% of the collecting community.

I wouldn't want a trimmed book - micro or not.

 

Why not?

 

Ditto that.

 

I don't understand how trimming is considered resto when you're taking away and not adding to. It should be noted but more as a defect than a resto similar to a taped spine.

 

I'd be happy to have any resto 60's Marvel key in my collection

While I agree to some extent, trimming is destruction, it is being done with the express purpose of improving the appearance of a book which is what a lot (if not most) resto is done for. Therefore trimming got lumped in with resto. It should be considered a defect and downgraded for but the practice of considering it resto is so established that it's probably a bit late in the game now to be changing it.

My concern is that the practice of micro-trimming will be met by a wave of indifference.

 

 

I don't see how any other outcome could come of this. If CGC is admittedly unable to consistently detect trimming, then consumers only have 2 choices:

 

1. Indifference

2. Stop using CGC

 

Is there another option I'm missing?

 

I'm not entirely sure what CGC has to do with it.

 

Let's say CGC went belly up tomorrow. Then what? High grade Silver and Gold will still sell for thousands of dollars, tens of thousands even. Do you think people will stop micro-trimming because CGC folded? If anything they will do it more.

 

This thread pertains to CGC

 

HG Silver & Gold will NEVER reach the same hammer prices raw that they have with CGC.

The same? No. But that doesn't mean they won't sell for a lot of money. You seem to be equating micro-trimming with something that happens because of CGC. Micro-trimming will still happen if CGC folds tomorrow. Just because an FF 1 in NM "only" sells for $25K instead of $125K does not mean there will be no financial incentive to monkey with it.

My concern is that the practice of micro-trimming will be met by a wave of indifference.

 

 

I don't see how any other outcome could come of this. If CGC is admittedly unable to consistently detect trimming, then consumers only have 2 choices:

 

1. Indifference

2. Stop using CGC

 

Is there another option I'm missing?

I'm not entirely sure what CGC has to do with it.

Let's say CGC went belly up tomorrow. Then what? High grade Silver and Gold will still sell for thousands of dollars, tens of thousands even. Do you think people will stop micro-trimming because CGC folded? If anything they will do it more.

I keep reading that grading is subjective, grading is subjective, grading is subjective, okay, no argument grading is subjective. But in this case, it's one book, with one major flaw. Now, either CGC has a standard for that flaw or they don't. Different graders gave this flaw a different grade. Doesn't sound like a standard. No standards scares me.

Go ahead guys, ignore my comment yet again. I can't even get a response from Kav on this ?!?

 

This.

 

+1

 

+1 from me. This is the root of the issue. This issue flopped back and forth between blue and purple so much that any claim to having set standards in detection is absolutely unbelievable. How can one trust any universal grade that isn't a modern book now?

 

+1

 

Blue. Purple. Blue. Purple.

 

That's going to be my new screen name...

 

I think CGC is going dark on this and will wait for it to go away. And by the vigorous defenders of CGCs grading who see this as an isolated, one-in-a-million-what's-the-big-deal kind of thing...it's obvious there are dealers who don't want change. They profit from playing the resub game.

For them, CGC is purr-fect-o.

 

Most people buy the number (eBay), while they buy the book, resub, and voila, the number changes.

 

That statement is funny to me as IMO most of the people playing that game aren't dealers. They're the average Joe collector like Dan (the OP). I know anti-CGC people keep harping about how dealers profit so much from CGC etc and miss the fact that it's really the average guy that profits the most from CGC.

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

Right thing to do. Thanks for the update.

 

+1 I agree. CGC is doing the right thing. I am perfectly satisfied with this answer. However, regarding the current owner/submitter of this book, what the heck were you thinking ? I can't understand why you would resub this book in the first place and, miracle of miracles, you get a Blue Label and immediately tell Dan about it. What did you expect ? Also, it seems awfully cowardly to do your talking through Dan and not come on here to discuss. It sure makes it appear as if you are hiding something.

 

No no didn't you read Dan's transmission of his statement, this book was meant for his permanent collection to never ever leave again. That's why he immediately paid a couple hundred bucks for a walk-through submission as soon as he bought the book. Uh huh

 

why "remove it from the market"? because it's been blue, purple, then blue again? taking it away won't change the fact that resto detection is basically a coinflip now.

I doubt it's a "coin flip" but it's no secret that it's never been a 100% certainty. I was much more concerned that they didn't catch color touch on the other book than that they missed trimming on the JIM. Theoretically, CT should be a lot easier to ID.

No no didn't you read Dan's transmission of his statement, this book was meant for his permanent collection to never ever leave again. That's why he immediately paid a couple hundred bucks for a walk-through submission as soon as he bought the book. Uh huh

 

Dan also said the buyer didnt believe that it was trimmed (as he didnt), knew that it had previously been blue, so subbed it again.

 

Many people would do the same. And who can blame the buyer for not appearing, when CGC has an army of mindless zealots ready to attack should he appear.

Much as CGC has an army of mindless pitchfork wielding critics who can't see the forest for the trees?

See what I did there?

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

 

Right thing to do. Thanks for the update.

 

+1 I agree. CGC is doing the right thing. I am perfectly satisfied with this answer. However, regarding the current owner/submitter of this book, what the heck were you thinking ? I can't understand why you would resub this book in the first place and, miracle of miracles, you get a Blue Label and immediately tell Dan about it. What did you expect ? Also, it seems awfully cowardly to do your talking through Dan and not come on here to discuss. It sure makes it appear as if you are hiding something.

 

No no didn't you read Dan's transmission of his statement, this book was meant for his permanent collection to never ever leave again. That's why he immediately paid a couple hundred bucks for a walk-through submission as soon as he bought the book. Uh huh

 

I knew I should have saved my 20,000 th post for a better moment. I have to agree here that resubbing immediately makes no sense whatsoever.....

You are right, it makes no sense in the context of "this is for my personal permanent collection".