DC#

I'll let you know how it goes in a few days. I sent in an ASM 300 9.8 in a 2nd Gen slab for a re-holder about a week before this news broke. Currently in Grading/QC. No damage to the slab - it is just my OCD can't take having the different generations of slabs (and colors are more vivid with 3rd gen holders in my opinion even with newton rings). I use re-holder service more than grading these days as I convert newly acquired 2nd gen slabs or re-holder 3rd gen slabs to get rid a custom labels (not a fan) - so I am interested in how this process will work.

I don’t think one could say that the scandal has definitively impacted anything. The 194 9.8 sold for 2650 which is right at the 90 day average and where the book has been bouncing around since mid-2023. Depending on the book and platform - it has moved between 2500 and 3000 for six months. the 181 9.4 was 7% off the last sale which was in Oct so that too feels like a general marketplace decline. The 7.5 was soft but the 6.0 was exactly flat to 90 day and 12 month average - it was also the 2nd highest sale across the last nine sold. Given volume that books like ASM 300 and IH 181 trade at - and how likely it is that only a small subset of buyers even know about this topic - I personally don’t think is going to directly affect values that much This board is probably not representative of the knowledge and expertise of the average collector/hobbyist

Dealt with addiction of a close friend the past few years.....it is a whole different level of a problem. Sauce Dog's last post gave me bad memories of the kind of things I saw. Keeping fingers crossed for everyone.

Funny you bring this one up - they had another Aliens #1 in this auction and the listing even touted the “incredible sale” of that $7.5k copy. Swagglehaus has new YT video talking about a drastic overpay on a TEC issue this auction as well Here is the TEC 47 7.0 that went for $19k. Most recent sale was a 6.5 Promise Collection in 2021 that was $2400. Even 7.0 sales have never cracked $2k.

Good times are back! Over 3x GPA.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1 9.8 - $155.3k Aug 2023 (ComicConnect) Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1 9.8 - $131k Aug 2023 (Clink) Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1 9.8 - $132k Jan 2024 (Heritage)

Big day on Heritage. Three 7-figure sales and nine 6-figure books. Up sales: Supes #1 7.0 (2.34M vs 1.6M), BB #28 (810 vs 750) "Flat-ish": Bat #1 7.0, All-Star #8 9.4, ASM #9 9.8, TMNT #1 9.8 Down: Batman #1 2.0 (102 vs 177), Silver Surfer #1 9.8 (132 vs 222)

No love for Doctor Doom and Black Panther in this post Christmas window on Heritage. A FF #5 5.0 sold for $6.9k with last 5.0 sale in Sept 23 of 14.5k and a Dec 23 sale of a 4.5 for $7.6k. FF #52 in 8.5 went for $2.52k vs last sale in Nov of $3.3k and a 7.0 sold for $1.0k vs last sale of $1.5k in Dec. Perhaps just a bad selling window between holidays and the Platinum auction that starts on Thursday.

A short distraction if I may - saw this today from PSA and thought it fascinating given this conversation. That is a lot of counterfeiting happening on a single card in a single year. No telling how many raw counterfeits are still out there being sold......or being sent to other grading companies on the chance they won't be caught.

I think I have spent enough time on this thread now….but I do want to express very sincere thanks to those board members who have been working so tireless to track down and document fraudulent books. Whether it is acknowledged or not - I am sure your work has been helpful to CGC and will be to their investigators. My belief is by the time of final accounting (which may also be part of a plea or settlement deal with the perpetrator(s) ) - the impacts will be worse than we know but less than we fear. That may still leave many tilting at windmills for years to come - and not without some justification. And I will remain optimistic that we will see changes in some form that will help eliminate at least this version of fraud - and will remain pragmatic that where there is money to be made criminals will find a way. Happy New Year everyone!

I cannot state with certainty that all books keep the same date - but I have re-holdered several significant books this year (from 2nd Gen slabs) and all maintained their original grade date. Here is the example of a FF 5 I reslabbed this summer - graded in 2013 with photos in the CGC system of the 2023 3rd Gen slab.

At least we know Mike is not on Holiday sabbatical.

At least for the green to blue swaps talked about here - if the new blue slabs were never opened again - then they are for all practical purposes the new blue label grade they show. They are genuine even if being illegitimate at the same time. Is a blood diamond a blood diamond if you don't know it's a blood diamond? The buyers of these books may have already passed some of them along to other buyers and as long as people keep believing they are genuine then they are in effect genuine. Sort of the insidious nature of this whole thing. I am sure museums that have been defrauded with fake masterpieces have moments of wishing they never discovered that they were forgeries.

Those were my exact conflicting thoughts too. There was also a really strong Star Wars #1 9.8 sale but there were also a few soft Bronze books at the same time.

If this was a swap like the other books - we would still need to find the original 7.5 Blue before it was replaced by the 7.0 Green. Or again....maybe I have missed something in the thread

Reholders do not get a new date - they maintain the original grade date. So if he reholdered the 7.5 after the August date it would still show August. I know this because I just reholdered a FF5 in a 2nd Gen holder - it shows up in CGC census photos with new holder but original 2011 grade date. Take the legit Blue 7,5 out - insert green 7.0 for reholder - resubmit original 7.5 as a raw for new cert number.

Would be interesting to know what has been happening at PSA https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/psa-grading-buys-genamint/

A potentially easy first step would be an AI scrub of resubmissions. scan resubs, scrub for images of that cert number on both internal and external platforms, and create a flag that simply says “this book needs to be inspected” That would not be AI grading - just using AI to do what everyone here has been doing - just before the fact not after

Somewhere in this thread there was debate about legal repercussions - here are some very recent stories from the card market where the Feds went after just these type of individuals. https://www.fox17online.com/news/local-news/grand-rapids/man-jailed-for-collection-of-fake-sports-cards-worth-over-7-million https://www.kiro7.com/news/trending/colorado-man-82-accused-selling-more-than-800k-sports-cards-cards/7QEOL2Q6MZGXRLOFVPA27HFCVQ/

Never underestimate people's carelessness or stupidity. Probably the most common way most crooks are captured.

A few notable results from Goldin last night...... X-Men #1 8.0 OW went for $62.2k - last sale was $43.5K in Dec 2022 Tales of Suspense #39 9.0 OW/W went for $80.5K - last was $78k in Dec 2022

If everyone is convinced then let's just go back to our regular scheduled programming.

Respectfully disagree.

Apologies if this has been pointed out somewhere in the thread already - the posts are coming too fast to keep up. On the Hulk 181 9.0 from the video above - while I do think something like the swap out for a Qualified is very likely - I am not sure the book that Automatic Comics found is the exact one. There is a lot more white showing on the side of the Qualified 8.5 than the Universal 9.0. A lot more "white cheddar" as someone here once said. And the top staple is clearly visible from the front on the Qualified and it is not on the Universal. (last photo is of the 9.0 around the staple location)

Cautious as I do not want to derail this thread.....but.....I am separating the issues/challenges around assigning grades which are still subject to human interpretation (and thus also susceptible to shenanigans) from the idea that CGC has a vested interest in preventing what amounts to counterfeiting. Even a corrupt organization like the mob will take action against someone stepping on their turf. Again - for those sitting on the outside without the full view of the strategic and operational challenges the management team is balancing - we get to second guess every decision, question every motive, speculate at every turn, and damn with impunity because there are no repercussions for doing so.