geraldfordfan69

1 minute ago, johnnyms said:

I mean back in December people were getting there orders on time. Why should have anyone thought that the tat would have literally doubled. When You're given an estimate of around 6 weeks and it turns into 12+, yeah people are going to express their frustration. On march 9th It'll be 3 months I've been waiting on my economy order with zero movement. Meanwhile my express order that was received on 2/15 is scheduled for grading lol.

Because its BULK. Does anyone take the time to use their brains and think about why it takes so long? When you have a service to where people are jamming 100s to 1000s of cards into the system, yeah its going to take a long time. Its not like higher tier services to where your only submitting maybe a dozen or so cards at a time.It takes them forever to grade through that many cards.

The TATs have doubled since people see that its easy money to send in tons of newer cards that can have their money easily be doubled. When I can buy a Lapras VMAX for $15 and flip it for $60 after waiting a month of grading, yeah its a no brainer why bulk TATs has surged. But if you want to grade expensive cards or want semi expensive cards back quicker, use standard or higher. Some people seriously need to think for themselves instead of treating whatever CGC says is gospel. They tell you its an estimate but with that information, you have to make an effort and think what makes the most sense for you.

3 hours ago, ShiningCollectibles said:

The problem isn't that there changing estimation times. The problem is that people are sending in cards expecting them to be around those estimations and by the time they actually get the cards it is double or triple the estimation date. When people send things in they are trying to sell or cherish the cards they send in. The longer the wait the difference in price the products could be. You could win big or lose big. An example if you sent in a Darkness Ablaze Zard and you were expecting a 30 day and it was 77 days you would be furious at the price difference... That is just an example of what I am facing because of the price difference of the RR Zard with the release of the Shiny Zard. I was expecting it to be around the 30 day mark so that I could sell it before Shining Fates came out so I could buy the new Zard. But now it has crashed in price because of the wait. Just one example of mine.

Or maybe pay 11 more bucks and use standard service if you need stuff back quicker. Its nobodys fault but your own that you lack common sense.

I got a standard order done in around 20 business days today. The standard orders seem to be going pretty well. I like that I can grade expensive cards pretty quickly and CGC seems to be super reliable in that regard.

As for bulk, yeah its taking forever but the way I look at bulk is that its mostly cheap jank that isnt super valuable. I use bulk to send in more newer cards that I pull from packs or cheap cards that I buy. It just is what it is with bulk. When people can send in 100+ cards at once, it probably takes forever to work on. I dont think Ill use bulk too much in the future but im ok with that since I dont need to be grading a bunch of cheap vmax secrets since they dont make too much money.

43 minutes ago, Sp33dy said:

Why is that such a "funny" joke. What i grade and what u grade doesn't matter. We all have different reasons to grade things.

What I grade is superior. Sorry but we all know that lightning is the superior energy and only noobs grade water energies. The real pros actually grade lightning energies from sword and shield elite trainer boxes. I just submitted 50 fresh from a rebel clash etb. Dont be mad that im better than you 

27 minutes ago, Sp33dy said:

They are not, they are still alot of ppl before me thats on received. They are sinking and they know it

You probably shouldnt have graded 50 water energies

10 minutes ago, Sp33dy said:

Um alot of ppl need to stop misinformed ppl. Scheduled for grading takes ot longer than a few business days. Some ppl stay weeks to months on Scheduled for grading. I'm on over 40 business days of being on received on my bulk order from Dec and thats before they switched tat. So if they switch tat u will be impacted even tho they say u won't. 

I have yet to have that issue. Every time its scheduled for grading, it gets graded pretty quickly. Regardless, that doesnt change anything. They are working on your stuff. Just relax.

11 minutes ago, TerminalReality said:

Glad to hear your cards are moving as expected. This is my third set coming back and the first time I didn't receive them in hand within the expected time frame. Thats the only reason I was having concerns.

Yeah I wouldnt worry about the wait times increasing any further. I just had a standard submission get moved to schedule to grading and I sent it in on the 28th of January. Should get graded tomorrow or monday. Just lots of people getting antsy since they are at home bored with nothing to do with the pandemic still having everything shut down. I really do think that once most of the US gets vaccinated that the card industry will take a bit of a dive and the wait times here will probably be like nothing. The supply chain issues have been part to blame on why grading times are so backed up.

1 hour ago, dagwood jr. said:

All in all it comes down to personal preferences. Can you imagine if CGC didn't open their doors to TCG grading? PSA turnaround times would be wrecked. Regardless of whether you're a flipper or passionate about the hobby, the truth is Pokemon is expanding to new audiences and reinvigorating the existing community creating a demand that's been unheard of. At some point, I believe we'll plateau for a bit and will get the much needed breathing room for grading companies to catch up and get back to respectable turnaround times. Remember, these businesses are hiring like crazy, however, they also need to be smart about forecasting trends. I'm sure CGC is trying to be conservative with the number of hires in relation to the demand; you don't want an influx of graders if the trend hypothetically diminishes overnight. Also, would you feel comfortable having fairly inexperienced graders overseeing your cards just to say you got your cards back in a faster time? Not me, but again, it all comes down to personal preferences.

Honestly Im not sure that Pokemon is really expanding as much as we want to believe. Over a year ago, cards were on average, 1/6 of the price of what they are today. That isnt really too normal for gains to happen so fast and the pandemic is what is causing this. Once the pandemic cools off with people being vaccinated, Id expect wait times to drop like crazy. If people really wanted to get quick turn around times, Id bet in a few months they will happen. When people start going back to work and arent home all the time, I dont think we will see what we are seeing today with walmarts having lines for people trying to buy shining fates LOL. The supply chain is messed up, the mail system is messed up and at some point, its going to be weird looking back. Kind of like how toilet paper was impossible to get for months. Now every store is stocked and nobody cares. Id expect the same thing to happen with both grading cards and being able to buy them at stores. Will just be a funny memory some day.

1 hour ago, Angel of Death said:

Factually, you don't have to pay big money to compete. So, yes, that would make the opposite a fallacy. In your opinion there is no value. Your anecdotes are not empirical.

Factually you do unless you want to play burn or death and taxes or whatever cheap aggro deck exist most of the time. The control & midrange decks are always the most expensive since the best control & midrange hands always beat the best aggro hands. And mulliganing with aggro is miserable.

And I dont see where your thinking I said there is no value. Im saying that its not good value. Its like living in NYC. Its pretty terrible value but its a fun place to be. And thats how I feel about Magic. Its a fun game, but its just bad value. 

Its more like 60-70 days for bulk right now. Its pretty brutal how hard they are getting hit with orders but it might be due to them changing pricing recently and people trying to get submissions in right before the price change. Id expect it to take 3 months at the moment from when you sent it for a turn around time. In a post pandemic world I wouldnt be shocked if it returns back to how it used to be when they first started.

10 minutes ago, 956Ref said:

Stumbled across this thread and thought I would offer my two cents on a topic that I probably didn't read enough to know if Im completely on topic.

I believe the initial question is are people grading magic cards like they are grading sports cards and pokemon cards? From my knowledge people have graded high end investment cards for years with PSA/BGS. Although I use CGC to grade my comics, I use PSA for my sports cards, and if I choose to grade my magic collection in the future will use them as well. True investors will need time before they start spending money on slabbed cards in cgc cases. There's always an acquisition period.

As far as grading cards becoming common place question. I don't think this will ever get as common as sports cards or pokemon, because of playability. I have been playing since about 1993 and people want to play with authentic cards. When people play with proxies they will just write on a piece of paper, not go buy fakes. I have a group of friends that I used to play with on the circuit and we traveled for big tournaments. You see guys making card pools to help ease the cost. Before they decide on a deck they make some proxies, play test then swap out for the real cards once your done and decided. This helps with having to resleeve over and over and gives you the ability to playtest with multiple decks. On that note, if I made a deck to play with for fun, casual or tournament, I would use real cards whether the deck was valued at 2k or 200. This seemed to be true with most magic players I encountered over time. 

Magic is fun, and when people complain about the buy in, the thing they need to remember is that you spend money on certain cards but that is billable to different budgets. When I spend $500 on a luka doncic rookie card, I am spending $500 on a collectible asset. When I spend $500 on an Underground Sea, I get a collectible asset, a form of entertainment, and a socializing tool. So therefor you can allocate that spending to different categories of your budget besides your investment funds. I have many cards I purchased years ago to play with, that I have not touched in years...but I keep them because they have graduated from entertainment tools to assets....e.g. My Legends Moat and Abyss.

Now to the slabbing part. I have not slabbed and graded by Duals, Moat, other reserved cards, because of the far chance that I want to play with them and because I have no intent to sell them. The market for graded MTG simply isnt there yet. I've looked. Only few investors looking for certain cards. Modern keys like Tarmogoyfs, Snapcasters, Lilliana's were all high dollar cards at one time and I had multiple playsets, but the reprinting has destroyed any "INVESTMENT" value on them. They still have value as a commodity for playing and entertainment which is why they will never be 5 dollar cards, but you wont find people hunting for them graded. Wizards attempt to draw people in with countless reprints, masters sets, and the insane power creep is killing the game and keeping it alive at the same time. I can tell you that for people who played before there was a rarity on a card, inserts, etc...the game is not the same anymore. Don't get me wrong I played two decades over many sets. I am not hating just saying the game has changed and so has the direction of leadership at wizards. I love magic, and have fun playing it. But I will now only play legacy vintage and sometimes modern. I dont play regularly cause of work and most of my friends hanging up the deckboxes, but going to a shop and playing EDH casually is not my thing. 

PS - for new investors in magic, buy reserve list cards, play with them, save them and watch the value grow. Limit how much you put into because the growth is slow and you can get more returns from other asset categories. Dont invest in sealed product its a gimmik, and youre banking that someone will overpay down the road to "hit" a gem. Its basically gambling like whats going on with sealed sports cards. Some will make big bucks, but the unsavy will lose big.

I hope I didnt rant. I enjoyed this post though. I may even dust off some decks and solitaire play tonight. I have U/R Delver somewhere in my office, and mono green land destruction in my garage .

 

I think you make some good points but I dont think its just playability alone that makes Magic have no collectable market outside RL. As mentioned, quality control is a big issue. The pringles foils are ungradeable. I remember the from the vault cards being so cheap in terms of the materials being used and it was mainly due to WoTC not wanting to devalue the original versions, so they give LGS's from the vaults as kind of a gift, but it was a very cheap gift. If from the vault cards were made with high quality, that could have been something worth grading. 

There isnt any rare or expensive collectables that are also not playable with Magic. Like imagine if a new set had a Serra Angel full art that was like 1 outta 100 packs with some crazy foil art or a Shivan Dragon or just some iconic creature or some Jace Beleren reprint or just literally something recognizable. Plus if the card stock was good, then you would have a reason for people to open 100+ packs like you do in Pokemon. But there isnt. Every new card isnt very special and its printed into oblivion with cheap materials. Every set now has like 3 versions of the same card and the pull rates are all pretty high. Nothing is really that special unlike with Pokemon to where trying to get a Pikachu VMAX Secret Rare or a Charizard GX Secret from Burning Shadows is pretty difficult to do since it takes 100s of packs to find one and to get one in perfect condition is even harder.

And now the reprinting of things like Zendikar expeditions just feels like another hit to the collectability market. WoTC could have put the fetch lands in a regular set like they did with Khans of Tarkir if they wanted more people to play with them, but they just cut corners now a days and want everything to be a money grab. Its the worst of both worlds since the cards dont get super cheap yet their value is capped. And as for the old cards being investment tools, the problem is that if you play with them then their condition wears and their value goes down. And then some people get too into the game and never want to sell them. I dunno if I like it as a financial instrument since it takes serious discipline to really make money off it and most people dont have it. You would have to have zero attachment to magic to make it work and with most people it just wont work.

I still play Magic time to time either it being pauper or the latest draft set, but yeah, Im not a fan of whats going on at WoTC. IMO, the company is too old and most of the people working there need to retire already. There isnt fresh ideas going on there and it feels more like they are still working there out of an ego thing. Sucks since Id like to play it more often but there just isnt enough going on to keep me as interested as I did in the fast.

26 minutes ago, Angel of Death said:

Consistency does not mean devoid of requiring luck...

I've been playing for 15 years. I know a fallacy when I read one.

Its not a fallacy, its just plain fact. A game where two people are brainstorming is going to be less luck based than a game to where both of us are just playing off the top of our decks. Luck is not 100% removed, but its greatly reduced. The removal of cantrips and tutors from newer sets and from the Modern format makes it inherently more luck based and thats not an opinion. But if you like a game that is very luck based, there isnt any shame in that. For me personally, it just does not do it for me mentally and Im not spending money on that. You can spend as much as you want on magic, its a free country, but like I said for the 100th time, its not a good value for what your spending on. And thats fine if you dont care about how you spend your money, but we clearly have a difference in terms of what we value.

But regardless, the main point here was why is modern magic not gradeable and reprints aside, quality control and lack of real rarity are factors. Plus now you have collector's editions putting more foil rares and mythics into circulation, making modern cards not that rare. And also the foil print rate has been increased. If WoTC was to follow what sports cards do and make 10/10 inserts or something crazy like that, maybe modern magic would be gradeable. But as it stands, between them burning through blocks super fast and all the other factors, it just is what it is as of 2021. Cant really predict the future kind of like how I could not predict the Lugia from Neo Gensis that I bought for 30 bucks last year would be worth $200 today, so yeah.

Just now, Angel of Death said:

This is true regardless of how much $$$$$ you spend.

I don't know a single person who will play casual without real cards. That defeats the entire purpose of the game. Your opinions appear to be very skewed in extreme directions.

Magic is literally the most inclusive TCG in the world.

Thats not true at all. There are decks that are just way more consistent than others. When you have cards like Brainstorm and Ponder that can let you look at 3-4 cards per turn verses decks that play with just their opening hand, its a huge gap in terms of a decks consistency. Plus tutors like Green Sun's Zenith, Crop Rotation, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, etc. there is a huge difference in a burn deck that just prays that its opening hand is good enough verses a storm deck that can constantly kill you on turn 3 or Dark Depths deck that can win on turn 2.

Its not completely pay to win, but this version to where you think anyone can play, yeah I dunno if your new to the game or havent really paid attention to all the different formats, but what your saying is just a completely different world than I live in  and Im just going to end that discussion here.

2 minutes ago, Angel of Death said:

In your opinion. You're only citing certain builds, too. There's plenty of room to get creative.

Magic really ain't expensive. Casual is what MtG is built on, and it's not expensive to start nor play. Some of the most complex decks won't be play in sanctioned competition.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree. Ive played plenty of competitive Magic and being cheap just sucks and limits what you can do. You live and die by luck when you cant afford the good stuff.

And being casual, you again dont have to buy the real game. Other than bragging rights, there is no real reason to buy official cards. The game isnt inclusive, thats just some jargon WoTC says all the time. I could go further into why its not but that involves bringing up politics and I dont want to talk about politics on the internet so I'll just leave it at that.

18 hours ago, dikran1 said:

Thanks for the input guys! It’s given me a lot to think about... I just find it odd CGC would begin this venture when probably a near totality of the cards will never be slabbed by the community. Or maybe they see it as a fledgling market with potential, who knows?...

Kind of get back on the topic, Id think the old stuff is lucrative enough to be worth doing and maybe they are just hedging on Magic going the sports card route and making special 1/1 inserts in the future. Maybe they have some insider info that we dont have, who knows. Or maybe since Magic is the most popular game after Pokemon they figure they might as well add in to start off with. I dont think they expected Pokemon to explode and figured that they would start slowly with these 2 games and then add Yugioh and other games slowly, but now they are so overloaded with Pokemon that they are kind of stuck at just Pokemon and Magic for the time being.

5 minutes ago, Angel of Death said:

I know about a dozen different guys with different 'cheap' decks who can kill expensive decks. MtG simply isn't 'pay to win'. As I said, it's a fallacy that you need to spend big money on a deck to be able to compete in any format (Vintage excluded).

Ugh dude your killing me lol. I already said that there are cheap options out there, but they mostly suck to play with in the long term and some rely on alot of luck to win or they are 1 dimensional strategies that get boring to play with. Like I mentioned to you earlier, yes, Death and Taxes is a playable legacy deck, but before the recent bannings, it was not really top tier like it has been in the past. Modern has plenty of cheap aggro decks, but they are just boring as hell to play with. Maybe you like playing a version of Magic to where you like to live and die by your starting hand, but I personally cant play that way. I cant play a game to where there is a big lack of consistency in how the games play out and I really dont like formats that dont have efficient card draw or efficient answers. 

I guess my main point was to how you were talking about how WoTC is inclusive and I just think that is nothing but corporate jargon since in reality, Magic is expensive. Its expensive if you want to explore the game and to play the super complex side to it. If you want the watered down version, yeah I guess there are options, but if you want to play the spells on the stack wars/grindy games version, outside of Pauper, its not cheap at all.

And in terms of Magic not being a gradeable game verses Pokemon, Id think the ultimate killer is card stock quality from WoTC. Its just really crappy. The old foils back from the late 90s are far better than any modern card stock. And the foils in general in the modern era arent really hard to get. You can just go on WoTC's website and buy foil secret lairs. No need to crack 100s of packs compared to trying to find a Charizard VMAX. And with Magic Online, you can order a full set sent straight to your door of any modern product. That combo is probably also why modern magic is not gradeable since its not really that rare.

Just now, Angel of Death said:

You don't have to build a Championship deck... It's a total fallacy that organized play is expensive. Time and time again you can beat an expensive deck with a pretty cheap deck.

You can beat your opponent with a stack of commons, its called mana screw lol. To do it consistently, no you need something decent. Not to mention if you want to play the game consistently, you dont want to buy something that your going to get bored of and just to buy 1 decent deck, its not cheap. Maybe you have infinite money and dont care and thats fine. But I care what I spend my money on and just dont think magic is worth it anymore. Maybe a decade ago when reserved list cards were cheaper and entry fees were cheaper it wasnt a bad deal, but its like comparable to living in an overpriced city. Its not a bad thing but its just not good value. 

1 minute ago, Angel of Death said:

I don't see why you're assuming that everyone has to play with the same decks. I've destroyed replicated decks, and I've lost to other decks while still having more fun than just 'pay to win'. I think that you're also ignoring casual play. Commander is another popular format.

Nobody plays Pokemon, which is the point I was making when they basically asked, "why are all these current Pokemon cards being graded but not MtG cards?"

The cost of a deck in eternal formats is so high to where typically you can only afford one deck typically. And when bannings happen, your forced to buy a new deck. Maybe you dont care that you spend alot of money playing magic and thats fine, but Im frugile as hell  and Im not going to burn my money like that. And with casual play you dont even need real cards. Chinese fakes do the job. But Im talking about where having legit cards matters and thats with organized play and organized play is expensive. Plus before the pandemic, tournament entry costs keep going up too. I just think the game is overpriced for what you get is all. To me, spending 4k to play UW sharks in Legacy is not worth 4k and isnt good value, but that is just my PERSONAL opinion and not a fact of life.

And yeah, nobody plays Pokemon, but to me that is what makes it kind of undervalued / underrated to play since the price point is so dirt cheap. Especially right now in the pandemic, the tournament cards are stupidly cheap. All the staples are sub 5 dollars. Id expect when the pandemic is coming to a close later this year that the prices will go up a little, but even pre-pandemic, Pokemon was never that expensive. I think the way Nintendo markets the cards could be why nobody plays with them. They barely mention there is a game component to it. And PTCGO hasnt been updated in years. If they dumped more money into PTCGO, the tcg could be relevant.

14 minutes ago, Angel of Death said:

Nope.

Vintage? Sure. Legacy? Not really. You're ignoring Standard, though, which is the prime source of contention for the question.

I dont see how your playing Legacy without format staples. Cheapest deck that isnt burn is Death and Taxes, and thats only because it doesnt use anything on the reserved list and the deck kind of sucked when Oko and Dreadhore were legal. Everything else is very expensive.

Standard sucks though lol. There has been bannings every year for the last 5 years. WoTC just been cutting corners and keeps making standard suck so they can sell reprint sets and prints overpowered stuff so they can make quick profits. Maybe you like standard and thats fine, but for someone whos played the game for a while it just doesnt do it for me anymore. I dont like all their new corporate changes that have killed complexity in newer products and this whole print broken expensive mythics and ban them upon release or 2 months later nonsense has killed it for me. Its like Standard is basically like Yugioh now in terms of how its made and I quit Yugioh years ago due to that design process.

Pokemon, while kind of a crappy game, is at least dirt cheap. You can buy a deck for under $100 and not feel bad that the game kind of sucks. I cant imagine buying a modern deck (not that I really like modern) and having cards banned out of it once a year and having to play something different. I just cant play a game thats unstable like that. Maybe in the future WoTC will get their **** together and make Magic more consistent, but right now I personally cant recommend buying it.

4 hours ago, Angel of Death said:

All you need is Google and a light. I don't see what "experience" that requires.

Sure, there will always be expensive cards. You don't need a Liliana, Tarmogoyf, or Snapcaster to be competitive.

Its not just having a light or having google. You need experience with the cards since I think your out of the loop with how good counterfeits have gotten. Its not like Pokemon to where its super dead obvious if a card is fake or not.

Unless you plan to play pauper or burn forever, yeah, your going to have to throw down on format staples. Especially for Legacy or Vintage. Plus with all the banning lately and needing to change your deck all the time, the game isnt cheap at all. Id argue its very overpriced since the value gotten out of playing it just is not really there. Like yeah, Magic is much more interesting than Pokemon or Yugioh, but I cant see myself buying dual lands just to play Legacy even though I have the money to do so. There just isnt enough tournament support. If you win a Legacy GP, your PT invite is basically worthless unless you like playing Standard or whatever the newest limited format is, which personally I dont. 

4 hours ago, Kylez450 said:

Well he said PSA wasn’t a viable option anymore when it is. And I assumed the Standard level was a good comparison to PSA’s Regular Service. Yes it’s half the price , but I was strictly talking turnaround time. People seem to think PSA isn’t viable anymore. I use all the services and am not biased towards any of them. Not sure why people get so defensive over one service lol. 
PSAs Bulk = 10-12+ months
CGCs Bulk = 4+ months

PSAs Regular Service = 3-4 weeks 

CGCs Standard Service = 5-6+ weeks 

Nobody is getting defensive. You just dont have your facts in order. The standard service for PSA is more like up to 2 months, not 1. And you can buy a CGC express service for 40 bucks (36 with membership) that is 2 week turnaround time. Walkthrough is only 69 bucks with membership or 75 without and thats less than a week. Its not a meaningful comparison.

But PSA for the most part is pretty pointless unless you get the very high grades. The resale value just isnt there for anything under a 10, at least when taking in consideration the time it takes to get the card back. And its even longer if you live farther away from California since the mail has been slow lately.

The mew, lugia and sceptile are all good. Using standard service to grade them isnt a bad idea. The rest are probably all sub 100 in value so you should send them bulk. The 3rd gen cards are worth grading since they have been rising in value within the last year.

These are reprints from a set that cams out last year. They are worth 15-20 bucks each. If you dont mind waiting a year, PSA bulk is a decent option to make some money but generally speaking these arent that valuable and arent worth spending decent money to have them graded.

2 minutes ago, Angel of Death said:

As a consumer, you can use any phone light to determine a counterfeit. Very easy and convenient.

It's also incredibly easy to acquire mythic and rare reprints. Especially at pre-order. I've gotten $5 mythics that skyrocketed once they were found to be playable in Standard, or enabled a Modern combo.

If your not experienced with Magic, its not very easy to spot a fake. If your looking into getting to play Magic and want to play old school, its easy to get scammed. Its avoidable if you buy the cards from a trusted dealer, but buying in the dark from a random gets tough if you dont know what your doing.

And format staples like Liliana or Tarmogoyf or Snapcaster are never going to be $5. And each time a reprint happens, whatever is not reprinting goes up in value. Its an expensive game. Id only want to play Legacy or Vintage and Im not dropping that kind of money on cardboard. Pauper is cheap but its not really heavily supported at an organized play level.

1 hour ago, dikran1 said:

Interesting... do you guys think there will eventually be a market for graded modern cards or it’ll never be a thing? There’s a finite amount of vintage cards and I doubt CGC was banking on only grading those long term... 

Another thing I’ve noticed (vis a vis comics) is the near absence of price stratification for the vintage cards by grade... 9-10 seems to be the only desirable grades. So if I can only afford a HP Black Lotus I’d have to buy raw and hope it’s authentic? 
 

If they go the sports card route of making like 1/10's and finding some way to circumvent the reserved list, yeah it could be a thing. But as it stands with what we know, probably not. 

And yeah its risky business dealing with old magic cards. With pokemon, its just dead obvious if something is real or not. With magic, you really have to had experience with older cards to tell if they are fake or not. The quality of counterfeits keeps getting better every year. Ironically, the card stock of counterfeits and quality control is probably better than WoTC LOL.