sfilosa

Just to add that while this auction doesn't have as many pieces, less then a month later they have the European Comic Art auction with more pieces in it than this one. And many of the pieces aren't European at all. Not sure of the rationale behind this auction being called "European". Does anyone know? Did they do the live auction over in Europe the other times, but can't because of COVID this time? Or is it just because they have a lot of European art (but by no means all).

I didn't say two crazy bidders (might have thought that but didn't say it). That said, what we don't know is if there are a lot of collectors willing to pay anywhere close to that amount, or just two. And what happens (once again, all hypothetical) if the two high bidders own a lot of his art. And one decides he doesn't want to collect anymore, or dies or ends up finding something else more interesting to spend their money on. This happens all the time where a few "collectors" try to corner a market. That doesn't mean that there won't be a lot of demand for his art, but maybe not anywhere near that price. Like has been said on these boards multiple time, there is certain art that most of us feel has very little chance of decreasing dramatically overall. You know the downside at certain prices is limited, simply because a dealer or multiple dealers would jump at a chance to buy the piece at even a slight discount. Forget the collector. Not sure that would translate to this piece especially at that price. I have been wrong before.

The challenge on that would be that it is a "panel page" not a full splash or cover. I also still think there are "fewer" buyers but that doesn't mean it would always sell for less. But if you look at most of the dealers who have been around a long time, and buy a decent amount of the really high-end stuff, either for their collection or to eventually resell, not quite sure they put these in the "collection first" pile. A great Ditko or Romita, yes, but probably not McFarlane. Could be wrong on that and of course over the next decade a newer bread of big time dealers really will have grown up with McFarlane over Ditko/Romita.

The one thing this shows is that if have anything decent that you really want to sell, it makes sense to put in an auction. I sold five or six pieces at Comic Art Live but I have a feeling I left 20-30% at least on the table (and that would be after the 10% commission). Plus I had the hassle of shipping 5 or 6 pieces to various collectors instead of one shipment to CL. Unless someone wants a NSF piece at way above what I think is market (which I just did), I'm putting in an auction. As long as you don't need the money immediately, seems like almost anything of interest sells pretty well.

I think this is the one thing that is hard for the older generation (that would be me) to understand, but is absolutely true. Age of the piece (especially a quality piece) doesn't really matter. For me, great Neal Adams, Bernie Wrightson, Jim Steranko, etc. pages will forever be the cream of the crop in terms of artist (assuming the art is in a top notch character book). But that doesn't translate to the next generation, and next, etc. Think of this way. Assume in my example that the number of collectors with "large funds" able to purchase top quality art is the first number: 200 - (art from 70's and before) 50 - (art from 80's-90's) 10 - (art from 2000's on) Clearly there are more "buyers" for the older art. But in terms of the best of the best pieces, even with only 10 people with a large bankroll, it will only take two to drive the price up to what appears to be sky high prices. The fact that in my example there are 20 times more well funded 70's and early collectors, doesn't necessarily translate to higher sales. First, there is more "perceived" quality art work from that time frame. Tons of Kirby, lots of Ditko/Romita/Andru Spidey pages, lots of Colan work, a decent amount of Adams, Wrightson, Brunner, etc. Almost any cover from a key Marvel book is considered a classic. So more art to get absorbed by more collectors. But more than anything, just because there might be more people that "demand" the art doesn't always mean the price ends up higher. Once again, in an auction, it only really matters that there are two "go for broke" bidders. And for each "time frame" of art, it appears that is the case.

And you are going to let this page slum with all your Spidey Ditko pages? Just kidding. Another awesome addition to your already awesome collection.

The other part is when people say "quality pieces", many of us would have entirely different opinions (i.e. we all collect different things). Like I said in another thread, this Heritage Auction has a lot of strip art. I don't buy any of that so to me even if a piece sold for $40k, I don't think of that as quality. I bought a Jack Davis complete EC Haunt of Fear story two auctions ago, but for many collectors, they would have no idea what that is (and therefore not quality to them). And of course if a modern cover by David Finch from 2008 sells for $38k in a ComicLink auction (more than my complete EC story by far), I go WTF. But each collector is different and to be honest, if you are still collecting, you really do want to have niches that you like that are not the hottest in demand items yet. I have one piece in the new Heritage Auction that I really, really want and I bet 95% of the collectors on this board would go, what so interesting about that piece? Just hoping, the other 5% find something else they want more and I can get it at a price I can live with!

I admit that I don't know much about the value of these pages but the pricing seems CRAZY. You can get a pretty darn good Romita Sr. page for that price. Or an average Ditko page. I thought the auction was very, very strong for a lot of items. The funny part about ComicLink (and I like them and have bought and sold for well over a decade with them), is that they do not describe the art at all. I think a lot of Silver and Bronze age seller that don't have "clean" pages sell on their site. Word balloon missing, no mention, panel cut out and replaced, no mention, etc. That Spidey pages looks really toned for it's age. Obviously you can see that and it still got a crazy price.

Unless you have unlimited funds to buy art, it really doesn't matter if there are five pieces or fifty pieces you want. I don't disagree that Heritage has less material, but does that really mean there is less material going around? I don't think so. I've spent more this year than any other year because I saw a few pieces of art I really wanted. Pricing at auctions is strong. And this is a stock market technical analysis concept, but if prices don't rise on say a particular artist/character/time period, then supply will dry up. Excluding the reason a collector would sell because they need cash for other reasons (e.g. lost their job, retiring, no longer collecting, etc,), there is no reason for someone to sell a piece they bought five years ago for $1k if the current market is $1k. UNLESS that piece no longer fits in their collection. But if prices are rising, then there are two reasons to sell, no longer fits in their collection or make a nice profit and buy something else they want at a perceived lower value. Note that "upgrading" means the piece you are selling no longer fits into your collection (as you want a better piece). I will say this, if there is something you collect and auctions/dealers don't seem to have it, reach out to board members on CAF and see if they will sell. I've bought a number of NFS pieces, and have sold several NFS piece. Understand, you need to be prepared to pay "more" than what that person could most likely get in an auction, or you are wasting their time. If they wanted to sell the piece they have multiple options to sell. So if they say NFS, they might never sell or they might sell at a price that they feel is "over market" and they can take those dollars and buy something else they like "at or below market". That would be the reason to sell NFS piece.

Great example. The Barry Kitson pencils also seem like "layouts", not finished work. Definitely no hard and fast rule and I agree, I wouldn't even want the pencils in this case.

Now the next question you might want to ask is, what should the value of each page be? Assume pencil and ink were on one page and $300 sounds like a reasonable price. In theory, even though you are getting two pieces (if you buy both the pencil and the ink over blue line), probably $300 is still the correct price. I've heard that 2/3 for the pencil and 1/3 for the ink over blue is a good ratio, but that would be up to you. I for one would only buy both or the pencil, but never the ink over blue line without the pencil. That's just me. On the other hand, the ink over blue line is the actual published version, so I can see why someone would want that more than the pencil. Once again, for me, I like pencil work anyway, so I wouldn't buy the art if the pencil work wasn't something I thought was interesting, regardless of the inking. Once again, that's just me.

Getting a bit off topic but I think the one issue most of us have is when a piece is sitting on a site for a long time (e.g. 6 months, 1 year, 3 years, 10 years, etc.). And there is no price movement. This relates to either art that has been bought and sold many times or is being sold by the artist (through a rep) for the first time. As much as I don't like "Inquire", it feels worst to see the piece on the site for 3 years and when you ask for a discount, there is none to be had. I said this story before, but there is an artist who I really like that works through a rep. I had bought two pieces (these are several thousand dollar pieces each for reference) and I couldn't get a discount but shipping was included. Since the art had to be shipped from another country it probably saved me some dollars. So I just recently inquired about another piece that has been available for over five years and asked for a discount. Once again, no discount, plus was told that the price of that piece and several others were going to be raised to fall more in-line with new art pricing by this artist. I have actually met the artist at a con, nice person and have communicated once or twice by email (but I'm sure he wouldn't remember me). Therefore, I did take the piece I wanted, before the price was increased. But the part that makes zero sense, is that if he did give me a discount (say 10%) I would probably buy a few more. It is not like anyone else is going to know! I get not lowering the price on a website, but make a better deal if many years go by without a sale at the listed price. Of course, since I did buy the piece, I didn't help my case. That said, I am not one to walk away from something I really want over a few dollars as I realize these are one of a kind items. Just a bit frustrating.

His style changed overtime so if you want early to mid 70's Kirby style, the prices are not unreasonable.

Probably three fold: * Kirby art is readily available * 70's art (not his prime period) * Third tier DC character (with DC being valued significantly less than Marvel) Heritage has sold a number of pieces over the past few years around these prices. I wouldn't expect them to increase anytime soon.

Getting a lot of feedback which is a good thing. My original post was more about the artist they represent and if the art on their site (be it a drop or just available) seemed to be reasonably priced or over priced (with maybe a dose of overhyped). That said, great comments about customer service, working with artist on commission pieces, etc. This is all information that can provide valuable insight to all chat members. Any an all input is welcome.

I would say most people who buy art are looking for something to cover their walls. Not for the piece to "inspire" them. Therefore non-controversial scenes like landscapes often work well. Your better half is like mine. I do have Paintings through-out the house (which she really doesn't like but at least there is color). All my black and white art is framed in my office. That said, her favorite piece actually shows a topless women but it is a Jay Anacleto piece. She (and everyone else who has seen it), can recognize the talent needed to draw it. I don't think most non collectors see "talent" in a lot of true comic art. I also agree with you regarding new art. It is very easy for me to say Neal Adams, Bernie Wrightson, Jim Steranko, etc. comic book art took it to the next level (which is why even average pieces sell for a lot more than others at that time). But there are some great artist today, but we have to take out the nostalgia factor first to see that (since there is no nostalgia and sometimes they are drawing characters we don't even know).

Great information so far. Appreciate the input. While I understand the concept of "paying a premium for initial access", I would think that getting a chance to buy the quality pieces first could offset some of that "premium". If I look on a lot of repped websites, it seems that the best pages might only be priced at 2xs what a second or third tier piece (might not even have the hero on the page) is priced at. Dud page $150, great action page $300, splash $600-800, cover $1,200-2,000. Just an example. Yes, the dud page would probably not sell for the $150 (maybe a lot less or never), but it seems to me I can usually get a good action page for a reasonable price. Plus watching a few drops from various websites somewhat proves that to me, as if I wait more than 2-3 minutes, I start to see those better page show HOLD or SOLD very quickly. Hence, if new art goes up and no pages (except maybe the cover) sell in the first few days, very easy to assume that all pieces are somewhat over priced. So of the repped sites that have been mentioned, regardless if there is hype or not, which ones seem to have at least some sales at drop time, and which ones don't. And as one person pointed out, some times you can negotiate on price, and if that is the case, what time frame would/could you start. By that I mean, I'm not going to email and ask for a discount on a piece that just went on the site that day, but what about after the 3rd day, a week, a month, etc. Any experiences on that?

Thanks for all the information. Once again, understand my collecting interest is mostly older OA (what I grew up on), but I have found an appreciate for new art that I enjoy. I did very recently purchase a piece from a drop on your site simply because I liked the art. That said, I do not read (nor have read) comics in decades, I just like the art. In terms of valuation, I would absolutely assume that if your art is selling quickly it because it is price reasonably. This post was, in some ways, meant to see what other websites/reps people really like with yours being the "gold standard". To me, to meet a high level like yours, it would need to have art drops that: * Had unique art by high quality modern artist * Priced at a point whereas there is a desire to purchased the best pieces quickly There appears to be at least a dozen or so sites with many artist, but a lot of times it seems that little to no art is purchased when the art is dropped. In some cases, I actually like the art, but pricing doesn't make sense if no one else is buying the art. Regardless of what anyone says about value/investment, no one wants to spend $5k on a piece if no one else in this world thinks it is worth more than $200. Yes, if I love the art, I will easily pay more than the $200, but grossly overpaying for a piece will actually make me like the piece less. Doesn't seem like it should matter but I can't find one person who likes to pay more for something. I have a really nice car with killer options, but when people ask me how much it costs, I say list price was $x but I was able to get it for $x-. Even the richest people in the world (and I have worked for some of them), still want to think they got a good deal. Once again, appreciate all your input.

Thanks for all the information. In my opinion, it is never the dealer's fault no matter how you sell the pieces. Your job is to maximize the proceeds for your client. Obviously if you weren't doing that, your clients would eventually move to another dealer to rep for them just like some celebrities/athletes move to different management companies. The one "downside" to a drop, instead of say a "lottery system" is this. * Assume 20 page drop with 100 collectors wanting a piece. * If I assume someone else can beat me to a piece (put in cart and submit), my best chance would be to pick one of the least desirable pieces, hoping everyone else is putting the most desirable pieces in their cart first and submitting. * Kind of a bad way to get a piece from an artist. * Therefore, a lottery system would be better but maybe not as good for your client so I wouldn't expect you (or anyone else) to do that. Just my two cents (definitely less than your four cents).

As a collector of mostly Silver-Age and Bronze-Age art (and lots of paintings), I have started to look at (and purchase), new art from some of the repped artist websites. Assume I am a novice at this (which is not a very far off assumption). So in terms of the websites where the dealer reps for new artist, which ones do you feel: * Price new art at reasonable values vs. ones that everything seems to be overpriced. Would really like a lot of different opinions on this so while I realize that Felix Comic Art has art drops that sell out (or almost sell out) immediately, which would be a good sign the art is reasonably priced, is some of that "speculation" (e.g. everyone buying hoping this is another Tradd Moore). Obviously, great marketing, which is his job. So what repped artist sites do you like and which ones either don't have any interesting artist or at least not in a price range that makes sense buying when the art is new (and not on the secondary market). Also, if you don't want to put something out in the public, just shoot me a private message as I really do want to get a lot of input.

I meant to respond to this comment awhile ago. I'm definitely in the minority of comic book art collectors in that while I collect Silver and Bronze Age art, I really don't have a lot of interest in covers or splash pages. The condition of the art is usually bad (yellowing, yellow tape holding up text, lots of whiteout) and 1/3 of the page is a stat (not art), etc. That said, based on the way you collect, there would be no reason to buy any art more than $100. Just pick up a new page of Superman from a relatively unknown artist and frame, so when someone comes by they say "Superman" is that original? And while I totally agree that no one outside of comic collectors knows who Ditko or Kirby is, almost no one would understand black and white line art. You should buy only color pages (either colored by the artist or someone after the fact), because that is what they would be use to seeing in a comic book. To them, every piece of black and white line art (other than maybe strip art in the newspaper) would just look like an incomplete sketch. Obviously, you collect the way you do (good for you), but if we all collected (pretty much anything) based on what non-collectors found interesting, pretty much no collectibles would be worth anything. Who wants a old, beat up coin, antique furniture, dingy comic book or an incomplete piece of spider-man art, when you can buy a new one.

Are people really using bots? Until the art drops, you have no idea if the art is for sale at $200 or $2,000 or $20,000. I really can't see someone just programming, "buy all". The last couple art drops (and I am very, very new to this), I waited a minute or two to see what was being sold (if anything) before I picked something that interested me visually and financially. I was able to still pick-up what I wanted after three to five minutes, but I did want to see what others were buying (if anything). Many art drops have zero buyers right away. And for every Tradd Moore drop, there are probably several hundred that get very little interest/attention immediately. Clearly not where the second and third tier pages are going to bought anytime soon.

Valid point on SSB but I wasn't specifically talking about Tradd Moore. Now if you wanted to come up with a better system... * For art drops, no more than one item ordered in the cart. * You can order as much as you want. * Then art given in order of submittal. Therefore if I order page 5, you order page 6 and then I order page 6, I get page 5 and you get page 6. If no one ordered page 6, I would get page 5 and 6. Therefore, everything still sells, but I can't put everything into my cart really quick and get multiple pieces. If I put 5 pieces in my cart and you put the exact same 5 as me, I submit two seconds ahead of you, I get all, and you get none. Should be a better system than that.

The reason the 24 hour rule wouldn't work is simple......"demand is created by demand". Think of it this way. 25 pieces being auctioned off. Drop occurs. Five minutes later 15 pieces show "hold" on them. Now the other 10 pieces are more in demand as the supply appears to being drying up. But maybe most of those pieces were bought by one person. If only 5 sold to 5 different people, there would be less demand for the remaining 20. I know your argument would be all the piece (that people would want) would eventually be sold in 24 hours but that is not true. The second and third tier pieces might never sell, since they are "available" and there appears to be very little demand for them. But if most of the pieces are sold quickly, better buy what you can now before there is none left.

Did not know who Gary Frank is so I looked up on CAF. Does seem like supply is limited. In terms of his art, what do you like about it? Some of the pages seem like the Hulk just looks like a really big guy (but maybe that's the story line). I'm not questioning you on your taste, but I'm always interested in what collectors like in an artist's work? Said differently, there are many artist (I collect a lot more Silver and Bronze Age) that I just don't see enough that I could identity their work. Some I can spot right away. And even if I can identify their work, doesn't mean I like it, but only that they have a distinct style.