PGX Sale Prices versus CGC

[MutantKeys]

I agree completely. I would never send a book to PGX myself and I limit the ones I do purchases to Copper Age and modern books.

Cheater!!!!

[Sal]

i'm sure Steve and the gang just love this thread.

 

i think i'll go to the cocacola.com boards and start a thread about the positive experiences i've had with Pepsi

 

 

[Heresy]

For a cheap (<$50) book I might buy a PGX but if the same book were available from CGC even if it was a little more I would go with the CGC version. I would NEVER buy an expensive book slabbed by PGX for anything near market value because I have absolutely no faith in their ability to detect and note restoration (even the blatantly obvious.)

[sborock]

See CAPS:

Thanks for the informative post.

 

I recently had a book slabbed by PGX for the first time. I'll share with you my experience:

 

1. The first call to PGX resulted in speaking with Daniel and we disucssed pricing, timing etc SO....YOU CALLED AND TOLD DANIEL WHO YOU WERE AND WHICH BOOK YOU WERE SENDING

2. Sent the book off

3. Had some communication problems for a few days. I later learned he was at Comic Con

4. Promptly upon his return he gave me a call apologizing for the lack of communication

5. During the grading process (a walk-through) I spoke with Daniel, Dave and Allison. WOW, YOU CAN TALK TO DANIEL ABOUT A BOOK YOU OWN WHILE HE IS OBJECTIVELY DOING A RESTORATION CHECK AND EVALUATING A GRADE Dave and I spoke several times.ONE BOOK, MANY CONVERSATIONS He was courteous, informative, explained to me what made them hedge on the grade and ultimately how they determined the final grade. He made an extra effort to pack it up very securely, and sent it out FedEx for overnight delivery

6. I received and email confirmation of the tracking number and other pertinent information

7. The book looks great in the holder and overall I was very pleased with the transaction on a high dollar item CAN'T IMAGINE WHY

[Anfield Fox]

See CAPS:

Thanks for the informative post.

 

I recently had a book slabbed by PGX for the first time. I'll share with you my experience:

 

1. The first call to PGX resulted in speaking with Daniel and we disucssed pricing, timing etc SO....YOU CALLED AND TOLD DANIEL WHO YOU WERE AND WHICH BOOK YOU WERE SENDING

2. Sent the book off

3. Had some communication problems for a few days. I later learned he was at Comic Con

4. Promptly upon his return he gave me a call apologizing for the lack of communication

5. During the grading process (a walk-through) I spoke with Daniel, Dave and Allison. WOW, YOU CAN TALK TO DANIEL ABOUT A BOOK YOU OWN WHILE HE IS OBJECTIVELY DOING A RESTORATION CHECK AND EVALUATING A GRADE Dave and I spoke several times.ONE BOOK, MANY CONVERSATIONS He was courteous, informative, explained to me what made them hedge on the grade and ultimately how they determined the final grade. He made an extra effort to pack it up very securely, and sent it out FedEx for overnight delivery

6. I received and email confirmation of the tracking number and other pertinent information

7. The book looks great in the holder and overall I was very pleased with the transaction on a high dollar item CAN'T IMAGINE WHY

 

 

[Flaming_Telepath]

See CAPS:

Thanks for the informative post.

 

I recently had a book slabbed by PGX for the first time. I'll share with you my experience:

 

1. The first call to PGX resulted in speaking with Daniel and we disucssed pricing, timing etc SO....YOU CALLED AND TOLD DANIEL WHO YOU WERE AND WHICH BOOK YOU WERE SENDING

2. Sent the book off

3. Had some communication problems for a few days. I later learned he was at Comic Con

4. Promptly upon his return he gave me a call apologizing for the lack of communication

5. During the grading process (a walk-through) I spoke with Daniel, Dave and Allison. WOW, YOU CAN TALK TO DANIEL ABOUT A BOOK YOU OWN WHILE HE IS OBJECTIVELY DOING A RESTORATION CHECK AND EVALUATING A GRADE Dave and I spoke several times.ONE BOOK, MANY CONVERSATIONS He was courteous, informative, explained to me what made them hedge on the grade and ultimately how they determined the final grade. He made an extra effort to pack it up very securely, and sent it out FedEx for overnight delivery

6. I received and email confirmation of the tracking number and other pertinent information

7. The book looks great in the holder and overall I was very pleased with the transaction on a high dollar item CAN'T IMAGINE WHY

 

Jeez, Steve seems to be channelling me....

[TheShadowKnows]

If you have HG books cgc is the answer.You will get more money for them.If you want to slab some g/vg spiderman books in the mid twenties pgx may be a option.

[CycleGirl]

For a cheap (<$50) book I might buy a PGX but if the same book were available from CGC even if it was a little more I would go with the CGC version. I would NEVER buy an expensive book slabbed by PGX for anything near market value because I have absolutely no faith in their ability to detect and note restoration (even the blatantly obvious.)

 

I used to bid on a few PGX books, but haven't won any in over a year. I come up with two valuation estimates before I bid.

 

1) I look up the GPA value for the same book with a CGC grade 0.5 points below what was assigned by PGX (this gives me a little margin for grading differences).

 

2) I take the GPA value at the PGX grade and subtract $30 for the cost to crack the book and sub to CGC.

 

Example: http://cgi.ebay.com/PGX-Certified-Uncanny-X-Men-4-not-CGC-2nd-App-Magneto_W0QQitemZ110153975038QQihZ001QQcategoryZ32747QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

This X-Men #4 in PGX 5.0 . GPA for 5.0 = $183 GPA for 4.5 = $142

 

Valuation 1) $142

Valuation 2) $183 - $30 = $153

 

A further devaluation should be done to account for restoration risk. This is the risk that the purchased book will be determined to be restored when submitted to CGC. This risk is very real. This is analogous to corporate bond credit risk. That is, the occurrence rate is likely to be low (1% to 3% would be my guess), but the severity of loss when it happens is very high. The bondholder of a defaulted issue typically recovers about 40% of the bond's par value. The recovery rate for restored books appears to be about 50% for moderate value books but much less for high value books. Probably 20% to 50%.

 

Sorry for the side-track on bonds. I want to point out that there are ways to factor-in risk from a financial point-of-view.

 

To finish the example, I'll devalue the book another 3% due to restoration risk.

 

$142 x 0.97 = $137.74

 

Unless I really want this particular issue, this is approximately what I would bid.

 

In fact, the book sold for $162 which I think is too much. This is only a $21 discount versus a CGC book in the same grade. At $183, a CGC version of the book is a better value IMHO.

 

For books worth less than $80 or so, the analysis would be different because there resubmitting the book to CGC would never be cost-effective. It would be assumed that the book would either be held as part of a collection or resold in the PGX holder.

 

I'm currently in the process of selling off the lower value PGX books. For higher value books in PGX holders, I will submit a select few to CGC.

 

I think that from my posts it's obvious that I have nothing against the "discount service" that PGX offers. Low-cost providers have a place in many competitive markets. PGX is sort of like the neighbor kid who I might pay $15 to mow my lawn. He might run over some sprinkler heads and he might miss some spots, but maybe I'm willing to accept that risk.

 

Over the last year or so, I've made a pronounced move towards quality. I'm selling my mid-grade books and replacing them with high-grade books. This month I'll probably sell about 20 books (average value about $50) and buy about 8 books (average value ~$200).

 

The move to quality means that PGX doesn't fit in my collection anymore. An investment grade book is CGC.

 

 

 

 

 

[DrWatson]

I agree completely. I would never send a book to PGX myself and I limit the ones I do purchases to Copper Age and modern books.

Cheater!!!!

 

I like to think of it as resourceful.

[CycleGirl]

See CAPS:

Thanks for the informative post.

 

I recently had a book slabbed by PGX for the first time. I'll share with you my experience:

 

1. The first call to PGX resulted in speaking with Daniel and we disucssed pricing, timing etc SO....YOU CALLED AND TOLD DANIEL WHO YOU WERE AND WHICH BOOK YOU WERE SENDING

2. Sent the book off

3. Had some communication problems for a few days. I later learned he was at Comic Con

4. Promptly upon his return he gave me a call apologizing for the lack of communication

5. During the grading process (a walk-through) I spoke with Daniel, Dave and Allison. WOW, YOU CAN TALK TO DANIEL ABOUT A BOOK YOU OWN WHILE HE IS OBJECTIVELY DOING A RESTORATION CHECK AND EVALUATING A GRADE Dave and I spoke several times.ONE BOOK, MANY CONVERSATIONS He was courteous, informative, explained to me what made them hedge on the grade and ultimately how they determined the final grade. He made an extra effort to pack it up very securely, and sent it out FedEx for overnight delivery

6. I received and email confirmation of the tracking number and other pertinent information

7. The book looks great in the holder and overall I was very pleased with the transaction on a high dollar item CAN'T IMAGINE WHY

 

I see your point, Steve. The grader should really only see the book and have no knowledge of who submitted the book. I would hate to have to grade a friend's book if I thought that he or she might be offended by the result. It's human nature to want to please a friend or acquaintance. It makes business sense to want to please a customer. Both are detrimental to the process.

 

{sorry if I'm just stating the blatantly obvious}

 

 

[DrWatson]

 

...I think that from my posts it's obvious that I have nothing against the "discount service" that PGX offers. Low-cost providers have a place in many competitive markets. PGX is sort of like the neighbor kid who I might pay $15 to mow my lawn. He might run over some sprinkler heads and he might miss some spots, but maybe I'm willing to accept that risk.

 

Over the last year or so, I've made a pronounced move towards quality. I'm selling my mid-grade books and replacing them with high-grade books. This month I'll probably sell about 20 books (average value about $50) and buy about 8 books (average value ~$200).

 

The move to quality means that PGX doesn't fit in my collection anymore. An investment grade book is CGC.

 

 

Wow, you have really put a lot of thought and effort behind this information; however, I would have to disagree with the statement that you have nothing against PGX. You obviously do not hold them in high regard, since they do not factor in to the upgrading your collection to more quality acquisitions. As for the backhanded compliment with the lawn mowing analogy, I could not agree more and that is why I am willing to buy a Copper or modern PGX book and resubmit it to CGC. It is worth the risk. As a result, I think that you have managed to answer your own question as to PGX sale prices versus CGC sales prices and everything else here is just opinion.

 

P.S. Remind me to never get on your bad side.

[CycleGirl]

 

Wow, you have really put a lot of thought and effort behind this information; however, I would have to disagree with the statement that you have nothing against PGX. You obviously do not hold them in high regard, since they do not factor in to the upgrading your collection to more quality acquisitions. As for the backhanded compliment with the lawn mowing analogy, I could not agree more and that is why I am willing to buy a Copper or modern PGX book and resubmit it to CGC. It is worth the risk. As a result, I think that you have managed to answer your own question as to PGX sale prices versus CGC sales prices and everything else here is just opinion.

 

P.S. Remind me to never get on your bad side.

 

what bad side?

 

WRT the bold italic above .... I guess you're right. I've decided that they're not good enough for the new-improved CycleGirl collection. That's the opposite of "high regard."

 

I think that our thoughts are similar on the buy and resub strategy. If I could find a high-grade PGX slab of a book that I need and buy it at a steep discount, I would be happy to do it and resub to CGC. The discounts I'm seeing on PGX SA books aren't enough to make this work out. Maybe they are in the Copper or modern books?

[jmg3637]

I will relate my experiences with PGX as well.

 

I bought a few certificates that were good for 10 submissions of ebay a while back. They were good for books worth up to about 1k each.

 

About 2 years ago I sent off my first group of 10 books to them. I pre-graded the books with my daughter as a training exercise. It took close to 2 months to get the books back, which was longer than I expected, but less than CGC was taking at the time.

 

Most of the books came back lower than I graded, a couple the same and a couple higher. On the whole the books came back about .5 lower than mine which was not too far off. One of the 10 books came back with restoration, so they seem to do at least some kind of restoration detection. The book that I was most concerned about came back without restoration.

 

Since this time I was able to sell 1 of the books for almost 2x guide to a board member who made me an offer I could not refuse.

 

Another of the books I was able to trade at SDCC for full guide value for a stack of Four Colors. I had little resistance from any dealer in taking that book ( B&B 28 4.5) but I waited to use it until I needed it for getting the most I could in nice books.

 

I also have communicated via email with Alison recently about getting top labels for those old books that were submitted prior to them having top labels. That was one failing that they have recently rectified.

 

Of course CGC is the GOLD standard, but PGX is a viable pygmy sized competitor. I must admit I am surprised that a deal has not been worked out for PGX to become a part of one of the NGC competitors.

 

 

[CycleGirl]

I will relate my experiences with PGX as well.

 

 

Great post!

[codfish]

I used to bid on a few PGX books, but haven't won any in over a year. I come up with two valuation estimates before I bid.

 

1) I look up the GPA value for the same book with a CGC grade 0.5 points below what was assigned by PGX (this gives me a little margin for grading differences).

 

2) I take the GPA value at the PGX grade and subtract $30 for the cost to crack the book and sub to CGC.

 

Example: http://cgi.ebay.com/PGX-Certified-Uncanny-X-Men-4-not-CGC-2nd-App-Magneto_W0QQitemZ110153975038QQihZ001QQcategoryZ32747QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

This X-Men #4 in PGX 5.0 . GPA for 5.0 = $183 GPA for 4.5 = $142

 

Valuation 1) $142

Valuation 2) $183 - $30 = $153

 

A further devaluation should be done to account for restoration risk. This is the risk that the purchased book will be determined to be restored when submitted to CGC. This risk is very real. This is analogous to corporate bond credit risk. That is, the occurrence rate is likely to be low (1% to 3% would be my guess), but the severity of loss when it happens is very high. The bondholder of a defaulted issue typically recovers about 40% of the bond's par value. The recovery rate for restored books appears to be about 50% for moderate value books but much less for high value books. Probably 20% to 50%.

 

Sorry for the side-track on bonds. I want to point out that there are ways to factor-in risk from a financial point-of-view.

 

To finish the example, I'll devalue the book another 3% due to restoration risk.

 

$142 x 0.97 = $137.74

 

Unless I really want this particular issue, this is approximately what I would bid.

 

In fact, the book sold for $162 which I think is too much. This is only a $21 discount versus a CGC book in the same grade. At $183, a CGC version of the book is a better value IMHO.

 

For books worth less than $80 or so, the analysis would be different because there resubmitting the book to CGC would never be cost-effective. It would be assumed that the book would either be held as part of a collection or resold in the PGX holder.

 

Actually for the example given the bigger risk is not a 0.5 knockdown for the CGC. Lower grade book run the risk of being over-graded by PGX. I am sure there is that Detective Comics extreme example floating around here some where. The STL forum's grading contest archive has some pretty good low grade massive over-grades too.

 

The other risk you are running is the GPA values themselves. GPA while being one of the more accurate guides is still just drawing on a small amount of data and you can sometimes not be completely on top of a trend or it can change "fast". So buying a PGX book as such a value waiting for shipping then sending off to CGC runs the risk of losing that calculated margin you anticipate.

 

Then there is all your time involved. You may love collecting and not consider it a job but you are still working at it and your time can be money so after all that time and effort and money on your part is it worth the margin MOST of the time?

 

I'm currently in the process of selling off the lower value PGX books. For higher value books in PGX holders, I will submit a select few to CGC.

 

Now you need to increase the restoration miss margin. Higher the value the book the higher the error margins need to go.

 

I think that from my posts it's obvious that I have nothing against the "discount service" that PGX offers. Low-cost providers have a place in many competitive markets. PGX is sort of like the neighbor kid who I might pay $15 to mow my lawn. He might run over some sprinkler heads and he might miss some spots, but maybe I'm willing to accept that risk.

 

But you are not buying into their service so you are not really "accepting" it. All you are doing it is considering their service as means of making money in a less risky manner. IMO while you may make some decent margins of $5-30 per book ... if you are lucky... you have spent alot of time and money that essentially wipes out those margins. If the "risks" catch up to you on an book of higher value then you are behind.

 

In the end you may as well gamble on raw books because the initial cost is usually lower, there are no premiums, and you pay less in shipping. Shipping and premiums seem to rarely be considered into whether or not a book is a "good deal"

 

The move to quality means that PGX doesn't fit in my collection anymore. An investment grade book is CGC.

 

So this statement kinda cancels out that previous comment of having nothing against PGX's discount services

[MutantKeys]

[sborock]

See CAPS:

Thanks for the informative post.

 

I recently had a book slabbed by PGX for the first time. I'll share with you my experience:

 

1. The first call to PGX resulted in speaking with Daniel and we disucssed pricing, timing etc SO....YOU CALLED AND TOLD DANIEL WHO YOU WERE AND WHICH BOOK YOU WERE SENDING

2. Sent the book off

3. Had some communication problems for a few days. I later learned he was at Comic Con

4. Promptly upon his return he gave me a call apologizing for the lack of communication

5. During the grading process (a walk-through) I spoke with Daniel, Dave and Allison. WOW, YOU CAN TALK TO DANIEL ABOUT A BOOK YOU OWN WHILE HE IS OBJECTIVELY DOING A RESTORATION CHECK AND EVALUATING A GRADE Dave and I spoke several times.ONE BOOK, MANY CONVERSATIONS He was courteous, informative, explained to me what made them hedge on the grade and ultimately how they determined the final grade. He made an extra effort to pack it up very securely, and sent it out FedEx for overnight delivery

6. I received and email confirmation of the tracking number and other pertinent information

7. The book looks great in the holder and overall I was very pleased with the transaction on a high dollar item CAN'T IMAGINE WHY

 

Jeez, Steve seems to be channelling me....

 

It's not channeling, just common sense

 

I hear you might be in Chicago? That true?

[Flaming_Telepath]

See CAPS:

Thanks for the informative post.

 

I recently had a book slabbed by PGX for the first time. I'll share with you my experience:

 

1. The first call to PGX resulted in speaking with Daniel and we disucssed pricing, timing etc SO....YOU CALLED AND TOLD DANIEL WHO YOU WERE AND WHICH BOOK YOU WERE SENDING

2. Sent the book off

3. Had some communication problems for a few days. I later learned he was at Comic Con

4. Promptly upon his return he gave me a call apologizing for the lack of communication

5. During the grading process (a walk-through) I spoke with Daniel, Dave and Allison. WOW, YOU CAN TALK TO DANIEL ABOUT A BOOK YOU OWN WHILE HE IS OBJECTIVELY DOING A RESTORATION CHECK AND EVALUATING A GRADE Dave and I spoke several times.ONE BOOK, MANY CONVERSATIONS He was courteous, informative, explained to me what made them hedge on the grade and ultimately how they determined the final grade. He made an extra effort to pack it up very securely, and sent it out FedEx for overnight delivery

6. I received and email confirmation of the tracking number and other pertinent information

7. The book looks great in the holder and overall I was very pleased with the transaction on a high dollar item CAN'T IMAGINE WHY

 

Jeez, Steve seems to be channelling me....

 

It's not channeling, just common sense

 

I hear you might be in Chicago? That true?

 

 

Philly was my Stateside show this year...from what I can gather, Chicago is going to be a blast.

 

Watching MK put hairs on his chest will be worth the price of admission alone.

[ciorac]

Thanks for the informative post.

 

I recently had a book slabbed by PGX for the first time. I'll share with you my experience:

 

[....]

 

I've read numerous threads where others had less than perfect experiences with them, and many others where negative observations have been made from the sidelines.

 

I am in no position to agree or disagree with anyone's opinion on PGX, but from my personal, recent, experience I think they did a fine job. I plan to send them another book after Chicago.

 

 

Thanks for the great post ciorac.

 

What is your opinion regarding the final grade assigned? Do you think it was the same as what CGC would have assigned?

 

I have no opinion in this area.

[ciorac]

See CAPS:

Thanks for the informative post.

 

I recently had a book slabbed by PGX for the first time. I'll share with you my experience:

 

1. The first call to PGX resulted in speaking with Daniel and we disucssed pricing, timing etc SO....YOU CALLED AND TOLD DANIEL WHO YOU WERE AND WHICH BOOK YOU WERE SENDING

2. Sent the book off

3. Had some communication problems for a few days. I later learned he was at Comic Con

4. Promptly upon his return he gave me a call apologizing for the lack of communication

5. During the grading process (a walk-through) I spoke with Daniel, Dave and Allison. WOW, YOU CAN TALK TO DANIEL ABOUT A BOOK YOU OWN WHILE HE IS OBJECTIVELY DOING A RESTORATION CHECK AND EVALUATING A GRADE Dave and I spoke several times.ONE BOOK, MANY CONVERSATIONS He was courteous, informative, explained to me what made them hedge on the grade and ultimately how they determined the final grade. He made an extra effort to pack it up very securely, and sent it out FedEx for overnight delivery

6. I received and email confirmation of the tracking number and other pertinent information

7. The book looks great in the holder and overall I was very pleased with the transaction on a high dollar item CAN'T IMAGINE WHY

 

1. No, I called to inquire how much would it be to submit a book for walk-through serivce, and how long would it take to get the book back.

5. Not about the grade. I am impatient and wanted to know when the book was coming back. I also spoke with them AFTER the book was graded to find out what the evalutaion was, and again a day later to find out when it was going to be sent out. I called one last time to change the shipping to priority overnight and supplied them with a credit card.

 

The biggest negative was that they went out of town while my book sat. So the "walkthrough" took over a week.

 

CGC typically turns my walkthroughs around much quicker. Up until this book I have only submitted books to CGC for grading and have every confidence in them, their honesty and integrity are beyond reproach. The decision made to submit this book to PGX was strictly a financial one, as is the other book I am contemplating sending them.

 

Period.