Undisclosed Restoration from Dealer (Metro)

[joeypost]

Dear Forum Members,

 

 

I have just returned from looking at a deal and just learned about the issues Josh has with my company. I have emailed and PMed him asking him to call me to discuss the situation. Although our policy is clearly stated on our website I would like to speak with him about it.

 

As I have stated in the past I am always happy to discuss an issue a customer may have. I may not always agree but once again always happy to talk about it. You can always reach me toll free 800-229-6387 ext 14 US or 212-260-4147 ext 14 US or Intl or by emailing me at vincentz@metropoliscomics.com.

 

I also really appreciate those of you who have made very responsible posts by showing my clear policy, and those of you who did not use this incident to attempt to make themselves look better or put us down even if you disagree with our policy.

I would also make one last point, we do our best to spot restoration but sometimes things get by. That is why we have built up our policy to protect our customers which you can read about here http://metropoliscomics.com/orderinfo.php#returnpolicy

 

 

Sincerely,

 

Vincent

 

PS- If anybody would like to speak with me further on this situation please feel free to email me or PM me and I will get back to you shortly.

 

Well done.

[EastCoastExchange-migratio]

Dear Forum Members,

 

 

I have just returned from looking at a deal and just learned about the issues Josh has with my company. I have emailed and PMed him asking him to call me to discuss the situation. Although our policy is clearly stated on our website I would like to speak with him about it.

 

As I have stated in the past I am always happy to discuss an issue a customer may have. I may not always agree but once again always happy to talk about it. You can always reach me toll free 800-229-6387 ext 14 US or 212-260-4147 ext 14 US or Intl or by emailing me at vincentz@metropoliscomics.com.

 

I also really appreciate those of you who have made very responsible posts by showing my clear policy, and those of you who did not use this incident to attempt to make themselves look better or put us down even if you disagree with our policy.

I would also make one last point, we do our best to spot restoration but sometimes things get by. That is why we have built up our policy to protect our customers which you can read about here http://metropoliscomics.com/orderinfo.php#returnpolicy

 

 

Sincerely,

 

Vincent

 

PS- If anybody would like to speak with me further on this situation please feel free to email me or PM me and I will get back to you shortly.

 

It states on your website,". Customers are responsible for any expenses incurred in the discovery of restoration or shipping costs."

 

WHY should someone have to "discover" Restoration, when that should have been your job from the get-go? To me this statement alone is VERY shady. And why are you all selling books you aren't 100% sure RESTO or NON-RESTO? It's like buying a new home, only then to find out from an inspector that it is infested with termites.

[plady69]

Man, I would be pissed too if Metro said the book was not restored (twice) and it turns out it was.

 

The consumer is not an "expert" on restoration, so that would fall to the 3rd party, CGC. I feel that Metro has been dishonest in their grading and if they confess to that, they should pay all fees involved with this transaction.

 

If they won't make good on this deal, I would never deal with them again.

 

My 2 cents...

[thehumantorch]

I suspect that sellers would tend to side with Metro and buyers would tend to side with Josh. As a buyer I've been ripped off or decieved several times and automatically tend to lean towards the buyer. If I was a seller and had dealt with a few difficult or downright crooked buyers I would more likely side with the seller. That being said it would likely be in Metro's best interest to resolve this to the buyers satisfaction. Its not a lot of money and I'm pretty sure Josh is a honest, likely repeat customer worth impressing.

 

I do think that selling a restored comic as unrestored is a major mistake and if I did so I would be in a hurry to fix the problem. That is why you buy off a major reputable dealer, for their professional experienced service. P.S. I have dealt with Metro. and was very happy.

[qualitycomix]

The fact is that Metro misses resto. Is that a big deal? CGC misses resto too. Is that a big deal? Yes it is. However, neither company should be crucified because of it.

 

We should accept the compensation noted on their respective websites that these companies offer us and move on.

 

Personally, I would refund the cost of the book and shipping costs both ways but probably not CGC costs, as unpopular as that may sound. I have no control over where the book goes once it leaves my possession. Now, if the buyer and I agreed to something before hand, that is a different story. At the same time, I'm not going to lose a good customer over $50...

 

Brent

[MrBedrock]

Dear Forum Members,

 

 

I have just returned from looking at a deal and just learned about the issues Josh has with my company. I have emailed and PMed him asking him to call me to discuss the situation. Although our policy is clearly stated on our website I would like to speak with him about it.

 

As I have stated in the past I am always happy to discuss an issue a customer may have. I may not always agree but once again always happy to talk about it. You can always reach me toll free 800-229-6387 ext 14 US or 212-260-4147 ext 14 US or Intl or by emailing me at vincentz@metropoliscomics.com.

 

I also really appreciate those of you who have made very responsible posts by showing my clear policy, and those of you who did not use this incident to attempt to make themselves look better or put us down even if you disagree with our policy.

I would also make one last point, we do our best to spot restoration but sometimes things get by. That is why we have built up our policy to protect our customers which you can read about here http://metropoliscomics.com/orderinfo.php#returnpolicy

 

 

Sincerely,

 

Vincent

 

PS- If anybody would like to speak with me further on this situation please feel free to email me or PM me and I will get back to you shortly.

It is quality customer service like this that shows once again why Metropolis is the industry leader! (thumbs u

Simply put...Metropolis is the greatest comics dealer in the history of the comics game!

 

[DrWatson]

[TheShadowKnows]

Sometimes the simple things seem to be th hardest.Good job Metro.

Dennis

[thehumantorch]

Metro=professional

[Comicdey]

Crack the book out of the slab before returning it.

 

then Metro will sell it as unrestored, but with the note "slight glue on spine"

 

Slight glue is at the whim of CGC...as blue lable GA sometimes have the note also.

 

Leave it in the slab....better to keep the book condition honest for the next buyer.

[Comicdey]

I just had a very nice conversation with Vincent at Metropolis regarding this issue. I understand his position and he understands mine (although we don't necessarily agree on certain matters).

 

It looks like he may be coming down to Super Con next week near my home in South Florida. If he does, I look forward to meeting him in person, bringing the book with me, and hopefully reaching a final agreement on my concerncs.

 

He also indicated that he would likely be changing his policy regarding not returning shipping costs for situations like the one I had.

 

I was very pleased with the line of communication between me and Metro and I feel confident that a mutually agreeable resolution will be reached.

 

Thank you again to everyone who provided their opinions in this forum.

 

Regards,

 

Josh

 

That's good business....I hope it works out for you.

[dopy02]

The fact is that Metro misses resto. Is that a big deal? CGC misses resto too. Is that a big deal? Yes it is. However, neither company should be crucified because of it.

 

We should accept the compensation noted on their respective websites that these companies offer us and move on.

 

Personally, I would refund the cost of the book and shipping costs both ways but probably not CGC costs, as unpopular as that may sound. I have no control over where the book goes once it leaves my possession. Now, if the buyer and I agreed to something before hand, that is a different story. At the same time, I'm not going to lose a good customer over $50...

 

Brent

 

perfect. imo.

[GreatEscape]

Sardo..sorry that happened to you.

 

Metro is not alone in this policy...other major dealers also give you a refund for undisclosed restoration but NOT the grading fees. For GA, you almost always pay more for a Metro book vs. GPA or comparable eBay sales, but that premium entitles the buyer to a broader selection, great service and the restoration guarantee. For me, buying one book on eBay that cames back PLOD hurts alot worse than $50.

 

Three observations of note:

 

(1) Metro processes thousands of books a month, so it is unrealistic to think they will detect every instance of restoration;

 

(2) Metro sells unrestored books that it has purchased as unrestored, so if they are refunding SN for the CGC-discovered restoration, it is Metro that is taking the biggest hit financially since it usually cannot go back to the original seller and say, "CGC found restoration so I need my money back."

 

(3) One of the greatest sins of our hobby is buying a restored book and selling it as unrestored....Metro and other major dealers won;t risk their hard-earned reputations to do that...but it probably happens on eBay everyday.

 

GE

[the blob]

PLEASE NOTE THAT NONE OF THIS SHOULD BE CONSTRUED AS THE GIVING OF LEGAL ADVICE. I HAVE MERELY PASTED PORTIONS OF WHAT MAY BE THE APPLICABLE STATUTE.

 

I really haven't given this much thought, but given that "law" and that nonsense has beeen mentioned, I spent two minutes looking into this issue because my gut told me "well, asking for the CGC fee isn't outrageous from a legal perspective" although I have to admit the UCC is not my strong point and other than something I briefly looked at in 1996, my only real UCC experience as a lawyer involves check fraud and electronic wire transfers:

 

well, without metro's clearly stated return policy (which I assume to be part of the "contract'), which I think protects them, from a legal perspective (BUT DON'T QUOTE ME ON IT), i think a buyer MIGHT get back the grading fees (or the portion of that attributable to resto check if possible) were this to devolve into a lawsuit:

 

NY UCC 2-714. Buyer's Damages for Breach in Regard to Accepted Goods

 

(1) Where the buyer has accepted goods and given notification (subsection (3) of Section 2-607) he may recover as damages for any non-conformity of tender the loss resulting in the ordinary course of events from the seller's breach as determined in any manner which is reasonable.

 

(2) The measure of damages for breach of warranty is the difference at the time and place of acceptance between the value of the goods accepted and the value they would have had if they had been as warranted, unless special circumstances show proximate damages of a different amount.

 

(3) In a proper case any incidental and consequential damages under the next section may also be recovered.

 

"incidental and consequential damages":

 

2-715. Buyer's Incidental and Consequential Damages

 

(1) Incidental damages resulting from the seller's breach include expenses reasonably incurred in inspection, receipt, transportation and care and custody of goods rightfully rejected, any commercially reasonable charges, expenses or commissions in connection with effecting cover and any other reasonable expense incident to the delay or other breach.

 

(2) Consequential damages resulting from the seller's breach include

 

(a) any loss resulting from general or particular requirements and needs of which the seller at the time of contracting had reason to know and which could not reasonably be prevented by cover or otherwise; and

 

(b) injury to person or property proximately resulting from any breach of warranty.

 

The CGC fee was arguably a cost "reasonably incurred in inspection"

 

A breach need not be fraudulent or intentional or any of that. In fact, the UCC was created to get that out of the discussion, not that a common law breach of contract suit requires it either.

 

 

And this is why everyone hates lawyers...

 

 

[FFB]

It is exactly because I have been through situations like this before (although not with Metro) that I took the time over the years to learn how to spot restoration.

 

Metro's policy is what it is, and if a buyer purchases a book from them, they are bound by the purchase terms. I don't think the UCC would trump Metro's explicit terms that state that a refund will not include the CGC grading fees. I know that Metro is not alone among dealers in having this policy, which is fairly standard in the industry (with some exceptions).

 

People who spend a lot of money on comics owe it to themselves to learn about restoration and how to spot it. This is not to cast fault on anyone (including the person who started this thread). My point is simply that intelligent investors in the stock market do not buy stocks without doing their due diligence first. Those who buy stocks without becoming educated about how to read a financial statement and without doing appropriate due diligence are usually out of luck if their investment loses money (unless the loss is due to accounting fraud or some other wrongdoing of the company), and there is nothing they can do about it except sell for a loss or wait for the devalued investment eventually to regain value above what was paid for it.

 

Comics as an investment are no different in this regard from the stock market. Collectors need to educate themselves about restoration detection just as stock market investors need to educate themselves about company financials and future business prospects before throwing a bunch of money into an investment. Learning about restoration is not that hard once you know where to look for the information. Once a collector learns about restoration, he or she can make far more intelligent buying decisions and can avoid getting stuck with a restored book without having to pay CGC to check every book in their collection. Learning about restoration detection is time well spent, and in my view, is essential for any collector who is buying raw books for more than $100 apiece with an eye toward investment potential.

 

There are several threads on these boards (including a very good one in this subforum) about restoration detection. Many collectors on this board have significant knowledge about restoration detection and are willing to share that knowledge with others on the boards, at conventions, and at forum dinners. People who are not yet comfortable with their restoration detection skills should take advantage of the resources available here to educate themselves and become better informed as collectors. It's always a bummer when you buy a book through the mail and find out it is restored. But it's much less of a bummer when you can spot the restoration for yourself instead of getting back the "surprise" PLOD when your box comes back from CGC.

[cd4ever]

Spotting restoration is not like checking to see if a Marvel Value Stamp has been cut out. It takes an experienced restoration detection person, the proper equipment, lots of experience, and even then, some will be missed. Some restoration is simply very difficult to detect and at times. probably impossible to detect.

 

I have a hard time railing on someone for missing resto. I've done it. Many times. As long as a sincere effort is made. And I have no reason to believe that is not the case here.

[FFB]

Spotting restoration is not like checking to see if a Marvel Value Stamp has been cut out. It takes an experienced restoration detection person, the proper equipment, lots of experience, and even then, some will be missed. Some restoration is simply very difficult to detect and at times. probably impossible to detect.

 

I have a hard time railing on someone for missing resto. I've done it. Many times. As long as a sincere effort is made. And I have no reason to believe that is not the case here.

 

Spotting restoration is not that hard if you know what to look for. If you have good eyesight and proper knowledge of what restoration looks like, that is about all the equipment you need. Having a ground glass loupe is helpful for spotting very small amounts of well matched color touch, but even then you should usually be able to spot it with the naked eye.

 

Trimming and pressing are probably the two hardest kinds of restoration to detect, and in some cases, are impossible to detect with certainty. But color touch, tear seals (glue), disassembly (which is usually done for a solvent/aqueous cleaning), bleaching, infilling, and reglossing are pretty easy to spot once you know what they look like. Ask Chris Friesen and Steve Borock, and they will tell you that they usually only use a blacklight to confirm what they have already seen with the naked eye.

[Ze-man]

Spotting restoration is not like checking to see if a Marvel Value Stamp has been cut out. It takes an experienced restoration detection person, the proper equipment, lots of experience, and even then, some will be missed. Some restoration is simply very difficult to detect and at times. probably impossible to detect.

 

I have a hard time railing on someone for missing resto. I've done it. Many times. As long as a sincere effort is made. And I have no reason to believe that is not the case here.

 

Spotting restoration is not that hard if you know what to look for. If you have good eyesight and proper knowledge of what restoration looks like, that is about all the equipment you need. Having a ground glass loupe is helpful for spotting very small amounts of well matched color touch, but even then you should usually be able to spot it with the naked eye.

 

Trimming and pressing are probably the two hardest kinds of restoration to detect, and in some cases, are impossible to detect with certainty. But color touch, tear seals (glue), disassembly (which is usually done for a solvent/aqueous cleaning), bleaching, infilling, and reglossing are pretty easy to spot once you know what they look like. Ask Chris Friesen and Steve Borock, and they will tell you that they usually only use a blacklight to confirm what they have already seen with the naked eye.

 

All I would add is that sometimes all it takes is buying a few books that have known restoration labeled(or in the grader notes to find out where exactly) Examine the book and compare what you see with what you know was done to the book. Once you know what to look for, you can focus that newly trrained eye on future books and look for similar things.

 

Tear seals and piece fill are the easist to detect, Glue and CT are not so hard because they will always have a different gloss(even if re glossed well) And once you get used to what to look for it sticks out like a blinking beacon. Staples replaced, married pages trimming are another beast though, sure there are tell tale signs of what to look for , but many times you simply cannot be 100% sure.

 

As Scott said though.. very minor glue and or CT is the hardest to spot because of the amount used. But even then it is more an issue of spending the time to detect it rather then having special equipment.

 

 

[GreatEscape]

what happened to the "small amount of glue" not getting a blue label.

since it is golden age.and cgc would give it to a "mile high" or other key book?

you should ask for a change in label.

 

 

I just won this MM 26 on the c-link auction, and it has the same grade (ironically) as the MM 58 we have been discussing. More importantly, it has almost the identical description (the 58 says "..on spine of cover", while the 26 says "...on cover"). The 26 also says "minor" while the 58 says "small." Maybe that's the difference.

 

 

If it makes any difference, I was the previous owner and cosigner of this book. I bought it from Metro as a "6.0 Fine" and came back 5.0 with the notation. If the label was PLOD, I would have been entitled to a refund but as notation on a Universal (Blue) label I was not. C'est la vie.

 

I have purchased several dozen raw GA books from Metro over the years and in rare instances came back PLODs...but each time Metro gave me a full refund. So, no complaints here.

 

While I can't blame Metro for CGC's stricter grading, I was disappointed that they didn't detect and disclose the minor glue on spine. I'm partially to blame as I inspect the books as well (and didn't see anything resembling glue on your MM#26)

 

Great pick-up Nardo...hope you enjoy the book!

 

GE

 

[spoonerism]

I gotta ask, what book was it and where was the glue? Sorry if you already said and I missed it.

 

 

Marvel Mystery 58. Glue on spine of cover.

 

Does anyone else take issue with this sort of "restoration" notation? Was it holding the cover on/together?

 

I've seen them mark something restored for a small amount of glue that was serving no purpose. In that case, I'd just pick the damn glue off and resub with the tiny pock mark. Better take a small hit on grade than get a PLOD.

 

(That's the kind of insanity this PLOD stigma has led to.)

 

A while back, I bought a Captain America Comics #1 from David Alexander. He called it non-restored, but I made the sale contingent on it coming back from CGC with a blue label.

 

They called the book trimmed and restored because it'd been re-stapled with part of the centerfold out, and the excess cut off. That seems like damage to me, not restoration.

 

Anyway, David was a mensch about the whole thing, and really worked with me to make me feel good about the deal. The next time I am looking for something like that, I'll go through him.

 

I don't know if Metro will do sales contingent on CGC, but I would guess not. This is based only on my admittedly limited dealings with them (I've spent about $10k with them over the course of a couple years, and attempted to spend much more by putting in offers on books, and I've met them at a few shows.) I think that Metro is looking to sell their books at the price they want, and at the terms they want. It seems like there are enough people willing to agree to those things to allow them to do that.

 

And, obviously, they're not concerned about drumming up more business or keeping marginal customers. If they were, they would reimburse your CGC fee.

 

As a business owner myself, I know there's a line between making the customer happy and writing off someone who is unreasonable. This seems safely within the 'make the customer happy' area on all metrics: It's a comparatively small amount of money; you're a repeat customer, and It's about their reputation. (Why can't their people detect resto -- at least detect when CGC might think there is resto?)