When did Wolverine really become popular?? 2 2

[mar-vell]

i started buying x-men off the stands in the summer of 1983. I believe issue 173 was my first book. I actually can trace my collecting back to amazing spider-man #238 which I know I bought because the cover grabbed me. Read that issue and loved it so I think I collected spidey from that point on but its fuzzy. I recall hanging out with a friend in summer of 83 turned me on to the x-men as the best thing going. After reading it I wholeheartedly agreed.

 

I spent the next few years going to local convention in the NJ/NY area and the rage was always Byrne X-men and Wolverine in particular. Wolverine was huge and although Miller's short run was universally loved the prevailing sentiment everywhere i went looking for my books was Byrne made the X-men and Wolverine in particular into the juggernaut it currently was.

 

I eventually collected GS1 and 94-up as a kid which was quite a task. Also managed to complete the entire miller DD run. For me the greatest miller work will always be those daredevils which made Miller's popularity on par with Byrne when i started. It was always Byrne and Miller on fire in those days with most but not all preferring Byrne's x-men over everything else. I really liked Byrne's FF until he replaced thing with she- hulk he lost me there. I never cared for miller's DK returns run in part due to being a marvel zombie but mostly the new style didn't grab me at all. I just loved miller's DD work and hated the thought we weren't going to get more of the same on batman.

 

Sienkiewicz style infected marvel comics and killed it for me. I hated it and it seemed to be everwhere. throughout the 80's I bought a book here and there but my hardcore early collecting days died around issue 200 of the x-men. It didn't help that i hated spideys new suit as well. It just seemed i started at the tail end of a great creative period that saw the launch of simonson Thor but shortly after marvel was making all the wrong moves that began their decent into the useless drek they have put out since.

 

 

[HouseofComics.Com]

I certainly remember having a run of ASMs and selling the 129 for the same price as ones around it. This is in 1984 or 1985 before the Punisher mini.

 

 

[Prince Namor]

I certainly remember having a run of ASMs and selling the 129 for the same price as ones around it. This is in 1984 or 1985 before the Punisher mini.

 

 

Ouch!

[Prince Namor]

Statement of Ownership numbers:

April 1978

X-Men#110 - (12months) 260,598 (returns) 135,933 (actual sales) 123,725 (pct) 47%

(nearest) 283,742 (returns) 152,122 (actual sales) 130,599 (pct) 46%

(Daredevil #152: 312,799———————- —————-125,079 (pct) 40%)

 

Steady growth

April 1979

X-Men#120 - (12months) 282,634 (returns) 165,961 (actual sales) 115,260 (pct) 40%

(nearest) 264,965 (returns) 158,705 (actual sales) 104,915 (pct) 39%

(Avengers #182: 370,012———————- —————-162,996 (pct) 44%)

 

 

 

Mar 1980

X-Men #131 - (12months) 327,387 (returns) 154,025 (actual sales) 167,641 (pct) 51%

(nearest) 311,320 (returns) 143,741 (actual sales) 162,617 (pct) 52%

(Avengers #193: 428,935———————- —————-217,850 (pct) 51%)

(Marvel Tean-Up #91: 426,418)

 

 

April 1981

X-Men #144 - (12months) 345,288 (returns) 150,919 (actual sales) 191,927 (pct) 55%

(nearest) 349,845 (returns) 144,000 (actual sales) 205,076 (pct) 58%

(Amazing Spider-man #215: 609,059———————- —————-296,712 (pct) 49%

(Avengers #206: 440,819———————- —————-235,791 (pct) 53%)

(Marvel Tean-Up #116: 416,687)

 

 

 

April 1982

X-Men #156 (12months) 414,435 (returns) 152,208 (actual sales) 259,007 (pct) 62%

(nearest) 450,936 (returns) 155,000 (actual sales) 289,525 (pct) 64%

(Amazing Spider-man #227: 554,248———————- —————-242,781 (pct) 44%

 

 

 

May 1983

X-Men #169 (12months) 507,493 (returns) 169,980 (actual sales) 313,215 (pct) 62%

(nearest) 524,923 (returns) 190,222 (actual sales) 326,395 (pct) 62%

(Amazing Spider-man #240: 513,585———————- —————-240,683 (pct) 47%

(Daredevil #194: 309,382———————- —————-180,199 (pct) 58%)

 

 

Jun 1984

X-Men #182 (12months) 546,070 (returns) 202,713 (actual sales) 336,824 (pct) 62%

(nearest) 556,783 (returns) 195,700 (actual sales) 359,219 (pct) 64%

(Conan the Barbarian #169: 410,058———————- —————-205,751 (pct) 50%)

(Daredevil #207: 402,372———————- —————-259,013 (pct) 64%)

 

 

 

Oct 1987

X-Men #222 (12months) 630,020 (returns) 209,989 (actual sales) 417,350 (pct) 66%

(nearest) 622,005 (returns) 202,360 (actual sales) 417,400 (pct) 67%

(Conan the Barbarian #193: 338,553———————- —————-151,351 (pct) 48%)

(Daredevil #241: 316,462———————- —————-189,959 (pct) 60%)

 

 

 

May 1988

X-Men #229 (12months)645,041 (returns) 210,517 (actual sales) 408,625 (pct) 63%

(nearest) 684,758 (returns) 222,855 (actual sales) 439,423 (pct) 64%

(Amazing Spider-man #301: 469,913———————- —————-284,692 (pct) 60%)

(Avengers #291: 386,809———————- —————-216,841 (pct) 56%)

(Daredevil #256: 313,353———————- —————-188,642 (pct) 60%)

 

 

 

Jul 1989

X-Men #246 (12months) 633,760 (returns) 200,025 (actual sales) 412,745 (pct) 65%

(nearest) 577,440 (returns) 183,700 (actual sales) 374,450 (pct) 65%

 

 

Based upon these numbers, when John Bryne says there were times they threatened cancellation of the X-Men during his run, it makes sense.

If I remember correctly:

Under 50% was considered a weak book, 50% acceptable, 55% standard, up to 60% strong, and +60% a big success.

Under 50% wouldn't necessarily get you cancelled, but it would send up a red flag that something needed to be done.

Much of Bryne's run, even up through #120 hovers around 40%, meaning it was nowhere near the breakout success it was remembered to be, regardless of who was on the team.

I'm sure it did however, make a fan for life almost every one who picked it up during this time.

By the time he was almost two years into his run (#131) it was just then reaching an acceptable percent of sales.

It slowly built up throughout the run, and by the time he finished his run, it was doing a little better than standard numbers.

Sometime during Cockrum's second run, it started to really take off.

 

Not sure it proves anything for Wolverine as he was a part of the team and not necessarily the focus of the book.

 

The Limited Series, released in 1982, was a fan favorite and something that every X-Men fan had to have and probably every Frank Miller fan as well. (Though I passed on it at the time. Believe it or not there were some people that just weren't interested in anything having to do with mutants.)

It's sales success, I believe, as there aren't any numbers I'm aware of to prove it, was a TRUE success, but was also additionally championed as a success of the Direct Market. Remember, for Marvel, it wasn't just that they sold a successful number of copies of the book, it was that it didn't need to take ANY returns on it from the Direct Market.

For them, it was even MORE of success for that reason. And their marketing and championing of it, gives it an even bigger picture of success.

Because the future of the Direct Market depending on it being seen, not just as a success.... not just as a big success... but as a success so great it would pave the way for a future that they would have even less returns on their print runs.

To the point where newsstand was a secondary market.

 

You can see, by some of these numbers, why the Direct Market was so attractive to publishers.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Some other numbers I could use some help with if anyone has the issues.....

 

 

May 1989

Amazing Spider-man #315: (McFarlane) 451,930—-(actual sales) 271,100 (pct) 60%

X-Men #246 633,760 — (actual sales) 412,745 (pct) 65%

Wolverine#24 Help! — (actual sales) Help! (pct)

 

 

May 1990

Amazing Spider-man #332: 426,790—-(actual sales) 266,100 (pct) 62%

X-Men #261 600,875 — (actual sales) 420,000 (pct) 70%

Wolverine#38 Help! — (actual sales) Help! (pct)

 

 

March 1992

Amazing Spider-man #360: 470,075—-(actual sales) 340,977 (pct) 44%

X-Men #286 735,600 — (actual sales) 599,300 (pct) 81%

Wolverine#52 Help! — (actual sales) Help! (pct)

 

 

March 1993

Amazing Spider-man #375: 660,958—-(actual sales) 544,900 (pct) 44%

X-Men #298 758,100 — (actual sales) 581,800 (pct) 77%

X-Men #18 1,151,525 — (actual sales) 967,808 (pct) 84%

Wolverine#67 Help! — (actual sales) Help! (pct)

 

 

Feb 1994

Amazing Spider-man #386: 715,642—-(actual sales) 592,442 (pct) 44%

X-Men #309 849,992 — (actual sales) 714,675 (pct) 84%

X-Men #29 902,150 — (actual sales) 672,175 (pct) 74%

Wolverine#78 Help! — (actual sales) Help! (pct)

 

 

Feb 1996

Wolverine#98 556,200 — (actual sales) 334,592 (pct) 60%

X-Men #329 621,133 — (actual sales) 362,128 (pct) 58%

 

 

 

Nov 1996

Wolverine#107 410,919 — (actual sales) 266,815 (pct) 65%

X-Men #340 550,044 — (actual sales) 455,570 (pct) 83%

 

 

 

Dec 1997

Wolverine#119 437,725 — (actual sales) 251,738 (pct) 57%

X-Men #350 471,292 — (actual sales) 300,732 (pct) 64%

 

 

 

Nov 1999

Wolverine#131 324,858 — (actual sales) 184,335 (pct) 57%

 

 

Nov 2000

Wolverine#156 210,525 — (actual sales) 121,289 (pct) 58%

[Unca Ben]

I'm happy that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby weren't involved in the creation of Wolverine, or this thread would really get interesting

[Logan510]

I'm happy that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby weren't involved in the creation of Wolverine, or this thread would really get interesting

 

 

[Prince Namor]

I'm happy that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby weren't involved in the creation of Wolverine, or this thread would really get interesting

 

Yeah, I think we wrung enough out of that topic for while.

[Mephisto]

The one thing that has to be considered with the X-Men and their steady rise is they decided to take a book that had performed crappy enough that it went into reprints for a number of years. Then Marvel decided to keep the title and numbering the same. (I know it was unofficially it was All New and All Different or Uncanny for some time.)

 

It seems pretty reasonable for the growth to be slow. There was no internet so kids and long time readers had to rely on actually looking at the book to see it was a mostly different crew and then risk putting their money down on the book instead of a proven good or decent title. There was no internet and actual comic stores were for the most part just starting up so you'd have to rely on a friend who risked their coins. Even pre Miller Daredevil didn't get forced to reprints or canceled!

[Unca Ben]

I'm happy that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby weren't involved in the creation of Wolverine, or this thread would really get interesting

 

Yeah, I think we wrung enough out of that topic for while.

 

Yup.

I'm spending my energy reading things like your Undercover Archie blog. Which never ceases to be awesome, by the way

[delekkerste]

That would be a good argument...if Claremont and Cockrum were in charge of the editorial decisions at Marvel.

 

They were not.

 

It doesn't matter what the writer and artist(s) want, if the editor says "Public wants more Wolverine. Draw more Wolverine. Put Wolverine on the covers more", then the writer and artist(s) do that, or they get fired, ESPECIALLY in the Jim Shooter era.

 

Remember: Neither Claremont nor Byrne wanted to kill Phoenix. Regardless of why, the fact is, Jim Shooter stepped in and said she had to go.

 

And just how DOES a character become popular...?

 

Exposure.

 

It does not help a character's popularity if the artist doing the covers doesn't like him, and doesn't draw him on the cover, which everyone acknowledges is what draws a person in in the first place.

 

It just doesn't wash with what exists.

 

I'm sorry, but this is just rank speculation on your part. It's well established why Shooter intervened with the Dark Phoenix storyline; there is no reason to believe that he would have pushed for more Wolverine.

 

You ask for hard data, including polls, when you yourself found that Wolverine topped CBG's Favorite Character poll in both 1982 and 1984! Now, I'm with you that this in and of itself is not conclusive proof, but I don't see Storm's name anywhere on the list, and it certainly means that a lot of people as early as 1982-83 thought that Wolverine was the top gun in comics. Just because memories can be unreliable doesn't mean that they always are.

[delekkerste]

You keep mentioning Storm cover appearances, as if that somehow disproves Wolverine's popularity. You say Storm is on 71% of covers and Wolverine is on 49% between GS 1 and UXM #200, even though almost everyone would agree that X-Men #133 marked the beginning of his superstar turn and the Wolvie mini-series brought him to 2-time CBG award-winning superstardom.

 

I took a deeper dive into the numbers and looked at their relative appearances during a more relevant period, between UXM #133 and UXM #212 (May 1980-Dec 1986, firmly the mid-'80s) plus all the annuals during this period:

 

Wolverine cover appearances: 42

Storm cover appearances: 37

 

Oh, but that's not really being fair to Wolverine, is it, because, remember, everything was in continuity during this time and he was M.I.A. during his two mini-series (that's why there are large stretches like UXM #168-172 and UXM #184-192) where he doesn't appear on any of the covers (KP & W was published at the same time as UXM #187-192).

 

Making that statistical adjustment (there's more to analysis that just counting):

 

Wolverine cover appearances: 51 (he wasn't on the cover of KP&W #1, though that's really just nitpicking considering that he had his own book and Storm didn't)

Storm cover appearances 37

 

As for other appearances during this time, I suspect that would add another few points Wolverine's way, considering he was on the cover of DD #196, 2 Contest of Champions covers, Alpha Flight #13, Dazzler #38, Power Pack #19, etc. while Storm's non-UXM appearances usually had Wolverine on the cover as well (like Secret Wars).

 

Face it - from the relevant period in question, Wolverine was by far the most popular X-Man. Sorry, but your "best argument" simply doesn't hold water.

[Prince Namor]

I'm happy that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby weren't involved in the creation of Wolverine, or this thread would really get interesting

 

Yeah, I think we wrung enough out of that topic for while.

 

Yup.

I'm spending my energy reading things like your Undercover Archie blog. Which never ceases to be awesome, by the way

 

Thank you! I'm always happy to hear when someone is enjoying it, because I love working on it and putting it together!

[RockMyAmadeus]

I'm happy that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby weren't involved in the creation of Wolverine, or this thread would really get interesting

 

Yeah, I think we wrung enough out of that topic for while.

 

Yup.

I'm spending my energy reading things like your Undercover Archie blog. Which never ceases to be awesome, by the way

 

Thank you! I'm always happy to hear when someone is enjoying it, because I love working on it and putting it together!

 

I'm so scattered...did you ask me to check that out? I've been so damn busy, someone asked me to check something out for them, and I forgot.

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

That's what it was...TCJ. Sorry, man. I'll check it out, but it may be academic at this point....

[Prince Namor]

Both!

[kav]

Ok let's move on-when did Wolverine become unpopular? I say it was after his solo movie debuts.

[joe_collector]

Guys, the timing of the X-Men spike is purely coincidental, and as much as I love Smith's art, this was right at the time X-speculation took off and collectors starting routinely buying multiple issues for resale. There were also other reasons, such as Rogue joining the X-Men (she was very popular back then) and X-Men Byrne back issues were very hot, so it was the case of the X-specu-era dawning, not the change in artist.

[joe_collector]

Ok let's move on-when did Wolverine become unpopular? I say it was after his solo movie debuts.

 

When they vastly over-powered him and turned him from a cool underdog anti-hero into an invulnerable bully. At a certain point, he became unkillable, and that made the character uninteresting,

[Mephisto]

Ok let's move on-when did Wolverine become unpopular? I say it was after his solo movie debuts.

 

When they vast over-powered him and turned him from a cool underdog anti-hero into an invulnerable bully. At a certain point, he became unkillable, and that made the character uninteresting,

 

This I completely agree with. Remember when Wolverine would get shot with one or 2 bullets and go down for a few minutes? Now he gets shot 150 times and isn't phased. Lame!

[the blob]

I believe Wolverine wasn't popular till 82' with the mini-series.

He got more popular in the 90's with the X-Men re-launch & the 90's animated series.

But it wouldn't be till 2000 with the X-Men movie that Wolverine (mainly Hugh Jackman's performance) that he skyrocketed to popularity with mainstream audiences.

 

they did the mini because he was so popular at that point it was a sure-fire hit

 

there was a LOT of anticipation for that, i remember how my little group of comic reading cadres was so excited.

 

although i'm not sure if at that point he was THE most popular marvel character given Spiderman. x-men eventually surpasses ASM in sales, but remember, spidey also has two other spidey titles (spectacular and team-up). with that said, it was a bit of a down time for spidey with the endless hobgoblin stories and what not and the terrible art on some of his titles..marvel took spidey sales for granted at that point.

 

true, x-men has new mutants as a spin-off and later x-factor