When did Wolverine really become popular?? 2 2

[delekkerste]

The Wolverine/Hulk reprint was either late 80's or very early 90's. I remember picking that one up and reading it when I had a babysitting assignment for my uncles neighbor. I would've been early HS at that time (before I got my first "real" job).

 

 

It actually had an October 1986 cover date.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Looks to me the late eighties with the massive popularity of the x-men comics and wolverines own series that he really started to become a household name on par with spider-man to those who don't pay much attention to comics.

 

And THAT...has been my point all along.

 

[Logan510]

Oh, and Speedball had a monthly series start before Wolverine.

 

I'm not sure why you seem to think comparisons like this are at all relevant. Speedball, Chuck Norris, the New Universe and even the Punisher weren't anchoring Marvel's hottest monthly book like Wolverine was (and hottest doesn't have to mean biggest - ASM may have been ExxonMobil to UXM's Google, but it certainly didn't have much "heat" to it)

 

Because obviously Marvel DID make those comparisons and chose those characters over Wolverine.

And X-Men was not the hottest book at Marvel during that time.

 

If Wolverine was just a solo character that wasn't the biggest draw for Marvel's biggest title, of course

 

Spider-man was a solo character and their biggest draw, and they had no problem having him in multiple books...

 

he would have gotten his own series before any of them. As it was, I'm sure there were any number of reasons why Wolverine didn't get a solo series despite years of fans clamoring for one, because, unlike those other characters you keep mentioning, Wolverine was already being used regularly in UXM and his numerous other appearances in the Marvel Universe. In fact, exposure, continuity and other creative/editorial decisions probably help explain why we eventually got the Wolverine solo series we did ("Patch" in Madripoor, etc.) instead of the one that fans actually wanted to see.

 

Yes, in fact, I'm sure this very conversation in some form was going on at Marvel...

Let's put him in his own regular series!

No, the X-Men numbers are a slow climb, a solo series won't last...

But the mini-series did great!

That's a mini-series... as a solo character his book wouldn't last....

But the buzz on the street has been overwhelming!

The buzz isn't selling enough books. It's a slow climb for X-Men. Wait until we have the Direct Market where we don't have to take returns on unsold books...

But Wolverine is ready now!

We have the New Universe... it's a sure hit....

 

I'm sure that if someone gave me all the raw circulation data I'm sure I could craft an irresistible narrative that fits the fact pattern that we already know like a glove. We know that Wolverine broke out with the Hellfire Club issues

 

The numbers show that isn't true.

The artist of the books says it isn't true.

How much more do we need?

 

and the mini-series put him over the top, with circulations showing a steady gain throughout this period. UXM sales increased even after the quality went down after Byrne/Austin left, I'm sure largely due to Wolverine's ongoing popularity. He topped two CBG polls in 1982 and 1984 and appeared on far more covers than Storm or any other X-Man between 1980 and pretty much any cut-off point you choose that pre-dates the "late 1980s". If you want to say that Secret Wars put him over the top, well, I agree that it probably helped him nab that second CBG award, though he was already on the cover of Contest of Champions #1 and #3 and extremely popular all throughout the years leading up to Secret Wars.

 

That's one individuals memory of it.

 

Sometimes the simplest answer is the most elegant and most correct. Wolverine was a supernova superstar by 1983, and all the revisionist, derivative arguments and speculation that are being put forth to dispute that are, well, just that - derivative, revisionist and not at all proving the contrary.

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Where I was at the time, in Southeast Missouri, I didn't see a marked up back issue of Bryne's X-men until 1987.

 

 

How marked up are we talking? I can remember seeing Byrne X-MEN's for up to $40 in "mint". 108, 120 & 121 were the most expensive JB issues in 1984. I can remember buying multiples of the Dark Phoenix issues for $8-10 at local cons in Chicago in 84-85.

[RockMyAmadeus]

The Wolverine/Hulk reprint was either late 80's or very early 90's. I remember picking that one up and reading it when I had a babysitting assignment for my uncles neighbor. I would've been early HS at that time (before I got my first "real" job).

 

 

1986.

[Comicopolis]

When did this thread become really popular?

[RockMyAmadeus]

When did this thread become really popular?

 

Now that you're here, it's white hot, and the superstar of CG.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Oh, and...

 

 

So it's not taken too seriously....

[Comicopolis]

Oh, and...

 

 

So it's not taken too seriously....

 

Alan Moore new the score. This, I think, is from 1981.

 

[delekkerste]

Show me anything documented at the time that makes the claim that many are making, that Wolvie was a superstar in 1983, and white hot.

 

I am perfectly willing to change my mind, based on new evidence.

 

 

You are anything but willing to change your mind, that much is clear. Wow, Wolverine lost to Daredevil #181, my favorite comic of ALL-TIME, in 1982. What does that prove? He won Favorite Character in 1982 and 1984 and UXM won Favorite Title in those years as well! And those were voted on by the fans, as opposed to what Amazing Heroes thought. Next you'll be telling us that the Avengers movie didn't win the Oscar for Best Picture!

 

Wow, Miller wins best GN of 1986 and Dazzler got a GN and Wolvie didn't! I'm sorry that you feel that I'm being confrontational, but it just exasperates me that this kind of illogical, irrelevant, non-sequitur is being presented as some kind of amazing revelation. I mean, by your (il)logic, Wolverine NEVER becomes a major superstar at all, because he never wins any awards after 1984!! We know this to be untrue, so pointing to evidence that shows he's not winning awards in the mid-to-late '80s just means that data is OBVIOUSLY NOT RELEVANT.

 

As Einstein said: "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."

 

Wolvie and the X-Men won the relevant categories that mattered. The Wolvie mini-series sold like hotcakes. Wolvie got a second mini-series with KP in 1984 and was one of the stars of Secret Wars. He has an unprecedented 4 solo covers in 1986 and makes numerous solo and team guest appearances during this time, while dominating the cover count during this period. UXM sales march steadily higher from 1980 onwards. The back issue market for X-Men is on fire and Hulk #181 is a $17.50 book in "VG or better" in the same Mile High ad I referenced above, which made it one of the more/most valuable books listed. That he didn't get a GN or solo series until 1988 sure as hell wasn't because he didn't have the popularity to merit one.

 

But, please, keep telling us how there's no evidence that Wolverine was a superstar in the early-to-mid 1980s.

[Rip]

For what its worth also check out the Eagle awards for early 80's. They are peppered with X-Men, Wolverine, Byrne, Terry Austin, Chris Claremont, etc etc

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Awards

Here is 1983 for starters

 

Favourite Artist (penciller): Frank Miller

Favourite Artist (inker): Terry Austin

Favourite Writer: Frank Miller

Favourite Comicbook: Daredevil

Favourite Character: Wolverine

Favourite Group or Team: X-Men

Favourite Villain: Darkseid

Favourite Supporting Character: Elektra

Character Most Worthy of Own Title: The Spectre

Favourite Single or Continued Story: Wolverine #1-4 (miniseries)

 

You'll also see Wolverine was quite popular even before that in the polls.

You might find a trend if you look hard enough

1978 (1977)

Favourite Character

 

Batman

Conan

Howard the Duck

Warlock

Wolverine

 

1979

Favourite Character (US)

 

Batman

Wolverine

Conan

Doctor Strange

Howard the Duck

Spider-Man

 

1980

 

Favourite Comicbook Character

 

Wolverine

Batman

Spider-Man

 

 

Edited April 15, 2014 by Rip

[mar-vell]

I remember clearly in the summer of 83 anything x-men was red hot and anything wolverine was white hot! So he was certainly a superstar at the comic fandom level by that point.

 

A lot of people are saying, and have said that. But there were a lot of magazines about comics being published at the time, and no one's come up with anything, outside of the CBG fan award winners (which doesn't include any runners up), that shows that Wolverine was "white hot" or a "superstar" at the comic fandom level.

 

And the CBG fan awards only shows Wolverine as most popular in two years...1982, and 1984...and then never appears again. What about the other years? Why was Batman the winner in 1983, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, and 1989? 1989 is easy to account for...but 5 wins in 6 years? Where was Punisher? How about Wolvie? Spidey?

 

And what about the OTHER CBG fan award categories?

 

How about favorite story:

 

1982: Last Hand in Daredevil #181 by Frank Miller (Marvel)

1983: (Tie) Doom! by Walter Simonson in Thor #337 (Marvel); Hard Times in American Flagg! #1-3 by Howard Chaykin (First)

1984: The Judas Contract in Tales of the Teen Titans #42-44 and Tales of the Teen Titans Annual #3 by Marv Wolfman and George Pérez (DC)

1985: Beyond the Silent Night in Crisis on Infinite Earths #7 by Marv Wolfman and George Pérez (DC)

1986: Batman: The Dark Knight Returns #1-4 by Frank Miller, Klaus Janson, and Lynn Varley (DC)

 

No Wolvie in sight, but Miller appears twice.

 

How about favorite title:

 

1982: The Uncanny X-Men (Marvel)

1983: American Flagg! (First)

1984: The Uncanny X-Men (Marvel)

1985: Swamp Thing (DC) -

 

So X-Men wins twice, but not for 1983. (By the way...American Flagg was tearing up the joint in these years.)

 

Favorite GN:

 

1984 (actually, Book): Dazzler: The Movie (Marvel Graphic Novel #12) by Jim Shooter, Frank Springer, and Vince Colletta (Marvel)

1985 (actually, Book): Comic Book Price Guide #15 by Robert M. Overstreet (Overstreet)

1986: Daredevil: Love and War (Marvel Graphic Novel #24) by Frank Miller and Bill Sienkiewicz (Marvel) -

 

Miller again! No Wolvie. Dazzler gets a graphic novel, even!

 

The OPG certainly doesn't show it.

 

Here's an example that contradicts it:

 

Amazing Heroes, in their issue #63, published their "Best 10 Books (titles) of 1984." They are, in order:

 

#1. Swamp Thing (in fact, by 1985, Swamp Thing had rapidly become one of the best titles on the racks.)

#2. Jon Sable

#3. American Flagg

#4. New Teen Titans

#5. Fantastic Four

#6. X-Men

#7. Blue Devil

#8. Atari Force

#9. Doctor Strange

#10. Power Pack.

 

I don't have the actual issue in hand, but it's from a DC house ad that says "per R.A. Jones, Amazing Heroes" issue #63.

 

Here's why this is important: it was published AT THE TIME, documenting the situation, at least as Amazing Heroes saw it, AT THE TIME.

 

And X-Men...? A dismal 6th, behind reasonably argued MUCH better titles.

 

Wolverine may, in fact, have been the single hottest thing since sliced bread...to 11 and 12 year old boys.

 

But 11 and 12 year old boys did not make up the entire market, and, in 1983, didn't even make up the majority of the market anymore. If it was a discussion about which character was the most popular X-Man, or most popular Marvel character, among 11-12 year old boys in 1982, 1983, 1984...hand down, no contest! Wolvie wins!

 

But it's not.

 

Show me anything documented at the time that makes the claim that many are making, that Wolvie was a superstar in 1983, and white hot.

 

I am perfectly willing to change my mind, based on new evidence.

 

 

Well the fact that at the time wolverine was part of the x-men makes it very hard to show proof. I think going forward in time we see the proof in merchandising as wolverine has far surpassed anything of that time period in terms of popularity.

 

I do think the recollection of fans here who lived through it should count for something but I concede our experiences were a regional thing. Chuck says in Missouri he didn't see a marked up back issues by Byrne until 87. In NY/NJ you couldn't touch a Byrne back issue without paying way over guide in 1983.

I can assure you at the time wolverines popularity went beyond young boys he was well on his way to iconic status but as i stated in my last post not there yet.

 

I guess some of it pertains to what you consider a superstar. Sales alone? His own series? These things came with time. One thing i can confidently assert that the enthusiasm was there and it was on another level from other characters introduced in that time period. That enthusiasm proved to be infectious. Its that enthusiasm that made him a shining star at the fandom level in those days.

 

By 1983 wolverine certainly had a large base of these enthusiastic fans that loved the character and already considered him the best of the best. This was clear at any convention in my area large or small. To those fans he was a superstar and on his way to iconic status. The number of those fans at the time isn't nearly as important as the fact that they were right. Wolverine is a big name today. Ask an "old school" fan and most will say it was the Byrne years that made the man. newer fans may point to the launching of his own series. I remember everyone loving the miller mini series but in 83 the buzz about it had already died down. I never viewed it as a turning point that launched the character to another level but I am sure some did.

 

Looking at sales and awards only tells part of the story. Dazzler shot up and then fizzled, by 1983 no one cared about that character. The market was all over the place and "hot" items like Thor 337 would surge and fizzle. Throughout it all the x-men were solid gold and just got stronger over time. The one who got the strongest over time was wolverine so there is that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Show me anything documented at the time that makes the claim that many are making, that Wolvie was a superstar in 1983, and white hot.

 

I am perfectly willing to change my mind, based on new evidence.

 

 

You are anything but willing to change your mind, that much is clear. Wow, Wolverine lost to Daredevil #181, my favorite comic of ALL-TIME, in 1982. What does that prove? He won Favorite Character in 1982 and 1984 and UXM won Favorite Title in those years as well! And those were voted on by the fans, as opposed to what Amazing Heroes thought. Next you'll be telling us that the Avengers movie didn't win the Oscar for Best Picture!

 

Wow, Miller wins best GN of 1986 and Dazzler got a GN and Wolvie didn't! I'm sorry that you feel that I'm being confrontational, but it just exasperates me that this kind of illogical, irrelevant, non-sequitur is being presented as some kind of amazing revelation. I mean, by your (il)logic, Wolverine NEVER becomes a major superstar at all, because he never wins any awards after 1984!! We know this to be untrue, so pointing to evidence that shows he's not winning awards in the mid-to-late '80s just means that data is OBVIOUSLY NOT RELEVANT.

 

As Einstein said: "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."

 

Wolvie and the X-Men won the relevant categories that mattered. The Wolvie mini-series sold like hotcakes. Wolvie got a second mini-series with KP in 1984 and was one of the stars of Secret Wars. He has an unprecedented 4 solo covers in 1986 and makes numerous solo and team guest appearances during this time, while dominating the cover count during this period. UXM sales march steadily higher from 1980 onwards. The back issue market for X-Men is on fire and Hulk #181 is a $17.50 book in "VG or better" in the same Mile High ad I referenced above, which made it one of the more/most valuable books listed. That he didn't get a GN or solo series until 1988 sure as hell wasn't because he didn't have the popularity to merit one.

 

But, please, keep telling us how there's no evidence that Wolverine was a superstar in the early-to-mid 1980s.

 

I have asked you, several times, to stop replying to me. I told you I was not going to discuss the issue with you anymore, because you made it personal. You continue to take personal shots in every post you make. I have tried to ignore you, but you keep replying to me. I have asked you to stop, multiple times, and you keep replying to me. I have not replied to you on this topic, but you keep replying to me.

 

Who is it....really...who is dragging the argument into oblivion? Hmm? Me? Or you?

 

Last time: PLEASE STOP REPLYING TO ME.

 

Whatever else you post is none of my business. But I'm asking you one last time to STOP replying to me, or bringing me up in the conversation, however obliquely.

 

Thank you.

 

[joe_collector]

I don't know if that's technically a retcon. 1) we as fans were not privy to that knowledge and 2) I don't believe Claremont was privy to Wein's intention either.

 

1) There are a few panels where you can see the claws sitting under the metal shrouds in his gloves.

 

2) Yes, Claremont knew, and hated the design so bad he changed it as soon as he could.

[joe_collector]

Where I was at the time, in Southeast Missouri, I didn't see a marked up back issue of Bryne's X-men until 1987.

 

Come on, that's just crazy, and Byrne stuff was hot by 1983-84, when his Alpha Flight flew off the shelves. The guy was the hottest artist on the planet and all of his issues were broken out in OS.

 

I remember filling some X-Men holes in 1984 and spending $8-$12 per NM issue mail-order on the 110's and 120's commons, $20+ or semi-keys. I still have the catalogs and order forms.

[Prince Namor]

Looks to me the late eighties with the massive popularity of the x-men comics and wolverines own series that he really started to become a household name on par with spider-man to those who don't pay much attention to comics.

 

And that's what is getting lost in all of this.

Of course he was popular in comics, growing in popularity every year, it's almost impossible to gauge just how popular he was at any given time.

But my interpretation of 'white hot superstar' would exceed the audience of just comics and put him on an iconic level of Spider-man and Batman.

And I just didn't see him like that in the early to mid 80's.

 

And at some point, and maybe this IS the real point... To be an iconic, white hot superstar in comics - shouldn't you have your own monthly book?

 

How can you be the biggest character in comics and not have your own monthly book in YOUR name?

[mar-vell]

Looks to me the late eighties with the massive popularity of the x-men comics and wolverines own series that he really started to become a household name on par with spider-man to those who don't pay much attention to comics.

 

And that's what is getting lost in all of this.

Of course he was popular in comics, growing in popularity every year, it's almost impossible to gauge just how popular he was at any given time.

But my interpretation of 'white hot superstar' would exceed the audience of just comics and put him on an iconic level of Spider-man and Batman.

And I just didn't see him like that in the early to mid 80's.

 

And at some point, and maybe this IS the real point... To be an iconic, white hot superstar in comics - shouldn't you have your own monthly book?

 

How can you be the biggest character in comics and not have your own monthly book in YOUR name?

 

Right on I agree with you. Much of fandom saw him as the next big thing and in comics at the time he was on fire but he would have to stand the test of time and the fact the marvel was more heavily invested in characters like spider-man to reach a national or worldwide iconic level of fandom.

 

As to your point about not having his own book I think often there is an exception to the rule and wolverine is it. He was surging for years before marvel decided to give him his own mag and I think prevailing opinion at the time being it was long overdue when it came. Throughout the 80's wolverine had the midas touch. Feature him in a book and it was solid gold. Even still at that point I don't think he was the biggest name in comics but he proved to be the one true character from that era that made it to iconic status.

 

 

[Prince Namor]

Where I was at the time, in Southeast Missouri, I didn't see a marked up back issue of Bryne's X-men until 1987.

 

Come on, that's just crazy, and Byrne stuff was hot by 1983-84, when his Alpha Flight flew off the shelves. The guy was the hottest artist on the planet and all of his issues were broken out in OS.

 

I remember filling some X-Men holes in 1984 and spending $8-$12 per NM issue mail-order on the 110's and 120's commons, $20+ or semi-keys. I still have the catalogs and order forms.

 

In the college town I was in, the very first comic book store they ever had was still in the first year of its existence. He got in a lot of back issues he bought in that first year (I know because I worked for him), but it wasn't until 1987 he got that first run of Bryne X-Men and said, "These are hot books".

I wasn't an X-Men reader, but had enjoyed Bryne's run on the FF, so hearing it stuck out in my mind.

He priced them at guide and featured them promently on display.

They sat.

Eventually he marked them down and let me trade for them.

 

Previous to his opening, new comics and crappy unbagged back issues were available at the used record store. Nowhere within at least 2 hours in any direction had anything.

 

He's been in business there ever since and helped grow that market.

 

[Prince Namor]

Looks to me the late eighties with the massive popularity of the x-men comics and wolverines own series that he really started to become a household name on par with spider-man to those who don't pay much attention to comics.

 

And that's what is getting lost in all of this.

Of course he was popular in comics, growing in popularity every year, it's almost impossible to gauge just how popular he was at any given time.

But my interpretation of 'white hot superstar' would exceed the audience of just comics and put him on an iconic level of Spider-man and Batman.

And I just didn't see him like that in the early to mid 80's.

 

And at some point, and maybe this IS the real point... To be an iconic, white hot superstar in comics - shouldn't you have your own monthly book?

 

How can you be the biggest character in comics and not have your own monthly book in YOUR name?

 

Right on I agree with you. Much of fandom saw him as the next big thing and in comics at the time he was on fire but he would have to stand the test of time and the fact the marvel was more heavily invested in characters like spider-man to reach a national or worldwide iconic level of fandom.

 

As to your point about not having his own book I think often there is an exception to the rule and wolverine is it. He was surging for years before marvel decided to give him his own mag and I think prevailing opinion at the time being it was long overdue when it came. Throughout the 80's wolverine had the midas touch. Feature him in a book and it was solid gold. Even still at that point I don't think he was the biggest name in comics but he proved to be the one true character from that era that made it to iconic status.

 

 

He's maybe the only Marvel character since the Silver Age to reach that iconic status...

But watch out for Thanos!

[mob_medina7]

When did Wolverine really become popular??Easy when Frank Miller penciled him!!BOOOM! nah but really imo when Claremont and Brynes run was going on Thats when wolvie got popular and after that first Claremont and Miller mini really sealed the deal

Edited April 15, 2014 by mob_medina7

[joe_collector]

How can you be the biggest character in comics and not have your own monthly book in YOUR name?

 

Because comics were different back then, and there was none of this "mass overexposure to make a quick buck" that we saw in the late-80's and 90's. Marvel actually worried about ruining Wolverine by putting him in too many books and there was a moratorium on doling out his origin - keep him mysterious.

 

In the 90's that all changed, and you're making the big mistake of using a 90's speculator mindset to judge a character in the early-1980's.