When did Wolverine really become popular?? 2 2

[RockMyAmadeus]

I also remember holding about a dozen copies of ASM #129 that I pulled from a box at one of my regular shops a couple years before that, marked at around $10-$15 each. Unfortunately, I never purchased either of the books back then

 

You guys and your memories....

 

 

Why on earth would Spidey #129 be $10-$15 each in 1982-1983, when you could buy them from Mile High for $2, and nobody cared about Punisher until the mini-series came out in 1985 (and even then it was a slow, steady burn)...?

 

There are multiple ads from the era which show Spidey #129 unbroken, the same price essentially as #125-140, all the way up to 1986. One ad I can understand, but MULTIPLE ads, over years, at the same general price point...?

 

There's a double page Mile High ad in Hulk #271, centerfold, price: $2. Mile High had them, Crestohl/Ross had them, Moondance (I think it was Moondance) had them, I even think J&S had them at one point...all around $1.50-$3, and not broken out at all.

 

Come on!

 

[BlowUpTheMoon]

[RockMyAmadeus]

I'd still like to see a comparison of ASM #129 and Huk #181 values from 1980 to 1990.

 

Me too.

 

#9 (for 1979) - $1.20 (these prices are the same for all issues between #125-140, until 1987)

#10 - $1.20

#11 - $1.80

#12 - $2

#13 - $2

#14 - $2

#15 - $2

#16 - $2

#17 - $14 (finally broken out in the OPG, published in spring of 1987)

#18 - (Don't have it handy at the moment, but I *believe* it was $35)

#19 - $75

OPG Update #8 (reports from May, 1989, 5 months after reports for OPG #19) - $125

#20 - $185

OPG Update #14 (Sept 1990) - $250

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

i think he really took off after the claremont/miller mini series (1982?).

 

this made him a cool character with an interseting story outside of the team.

 

poker is right 180 and 182 were also fairly highly priced at the time.

I suspect it was this. A bit before my time so I can't say I remember, but looking at pre-Miller Wolverine, he's just kind of a goofy Bronze Age character. No "cooler" than Nightcrawler or Colossus.

 

I think Wolverine's exposure grew as the X-men's exposure grew.

 

By the late 1970's they were all cool and then each character began to take a life on their own.

 

Byrne probably had the most to do with that. There wasn't much hotter than X-men during that era from what I can remember. Am I remembering it wrong?

 

Byrne had the most to do with it. Wolverine was about to be written out of the book and Byrne insisted that the only Canadian character should not be written out ( being a Canadian himself ).

 

Hotness is a relative term. The book did not take off sales wise until Paul Smith took over on art. Byrne has regularly said that sales on the X-MEN regularly hovered only just above the cancellation line and that they didn't really pick up on his tenure until around #137. Byrne has often joked that since sales didn't explode until Smith took over the art that he ( Byrne ) must have been holding Claremont back.

 

Doesn't he realize that's not how the fans remember it?

 

Indeed.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I went through my copies of #95 thru #110. I read the letter pages and Wolverine was mentioned only 3 times. Storm, on the other hand, was mentioned in nearly every one. Its striking that a lot of letters were written by female fans. Early on, Storm appears to be the more popular X-Men. What is certain is that Wolverine became the most popular. Whats difficult is nailing down when it became apparent. A lot of people think it was almost from the beginning. I think it was more gradual, a few years down the road.

 

I mentioned this in the other thread...

 

Storm appears on every single cover of the book for a period 3 and a half YEARS...from GS #1 to X-Men #115. Every. Single. Cover.

 

The book could have arguably been called "The X-Men, Starring Storm." No one appeared more than she did from GS #1 to #200, a whopping 71% of the time.

 

By contrast, Wolverine only appears 49% of the time.

 

I suspect, if we examined all the team books from that time period, you will find no character who appeared on as long an unbroken run as Storm, either time-wise or issue-wise (23 issues.)

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

. Basing Wolverine popularity with readers by cover appearances that were mostly done by an artist that didn't particularly like the character is weak at best.

 

That would be a good argument...if Claremont and Cockrum were in charge of the editorial decisions at Marvel.

 

They were not.

 

It doesn't matter what the writer and artist(s) want, if the editor says "Public wants more Wolverine. Draw more Wolverine. Put Wolverine on the covers more", then the writer and artist(s) do that, or they get fired, ESPECIALLY in the Jim Shooter era.

 

Remember: Neither Claremont nor Byrne wanted to kill Phoenix. Regardless of why, the fact is, Jim Shooter stepped in and said she had to go.

 

And just how DOES a character become popular...?

 

Exposure.

 

It does not help a character's popularity if the artist doing the covers doesn't like him, and doesn't draw him on the cover, which everyone acknowledges is what draws a person in in the first place.

 

It just doesn't wash with what exists.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Also, certain person who does not wish to be named said that Dazzler was the best selling book of 1981 (I assume he meant Dazzler #1, because there's no way the series as a whole was).

 

You assume correctly.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=4&Number=7599557&Searchpage=1&Main=336476&Words=dazzler+RockMyAmadeus&topic=0&Search=true#Post7599557

 

#1 book, not title.

[Logan510]

I also remember holding about a dozen copies of ASM #129 that I pulled from a box at one of my regular shops a couple years before that, marked at around $10-$15 each. Unfortunately, I never purchased either of the books back then

 

You guys and your memories....

 

 

Why on earth would Spidey #129 be $10-$15 each in 1982-1983, when you could buy them from Mile High for $2, and nobody cared about Punisher until the mini-series came out in 1985 (and even then it was a slow, steady burn)...?

 

There are multiple ads from the era which show Spidey #129 unbroken, the same price essentially as #125-140, all the way up to 1986. One ad I can understand, but MULTIPLE ads, over years, at the same general price point...?

 

There's a double page Mile High ad in Hulk #271, centerfold, price: $2. Mile High had them, Crestohl/Ross had them, Moondance (I think it was Moondance) had them, I even think J&S had them at one point...all around $1.50-$3, and not broken out at all.

 

Come on!

 

 

OK, maybe they were $3-$5 each. I do remember pulling out several from a box at one of the LCS's I frequented at the time, looking for the best one. I'm sure I spent the money on X-MEN stuff instead, which was normal for me at the time.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Information from the Statement of Ownership of X-Men #156 (which covers most of 1981)

 

The average number of copies of each issue sold per month in the previous year is reported as being 259,607, with the single issue nearest to the filing date selling 289,525.

 

Dazzler #1, on the other hand, sold over 400,000 copies...making it the best selling book of 1981.

 

Research isn't that hard. That info was two Google clicks away.

 

I'm gonna kvetch for a bit: those who are disagreeing have failed to produce virtually any hard data of any kind, magazine articles, fanzine articles, polls, anything, and have instead relied on nothing but their memories and a single in-house ad from 1983.

 

I have provided the CBG fan award data (which HELPED the other side of the argument), crunched the numbers on cover appearances, while Jae provided the OPG numbers, and Chuck provided the SOO numbers (copies printed.)

 

Research isn't based on memories, regardless of how many people "remember things the same way." Memory is valuable....but should never be the final word on any subject.

 

Show me the charts, show me the awards, show me the polls, show me the interviews with Editors, Writers, Artists, show me anything concrete that demonstrates anywhere that Wolverine not only was *the* fan favorite X-Man at the time, but was the "biggest character in comics"....??

 

 

Again...layered memories from different time periods, with childhood memories exaggerated.

 

Hey, when I was 8 or 9, I saw the Poseidon Adventure (1972.) I thought it was the greatest movie ever made. It was awesome.

 

Fast forward to the mid-90s, and I see it for sale on VHS at Costco. I watched it, as a college adult...and it was hideous.

 

Don't tell my childhood that. It doesn't want to remember it that way.

 

 

[Prince Namor]

It's never a wasted experience when it involves Ernest Borgnine's thespian oeuvre.

[RockMyAmadeus]

It's never a wasted experience when it involves Ernest Borgnine's thespian oeuvre.

 

Don't forget this masterpiece of motion picture music:

 

 

(PS. It WON the Academy Award for Best Original Song.)

[MediumLover]

It's never a wasted experience when it involves Ernest Borgnine's thespian oeuvre.

 

Or Shelley Winters swimming underwater.

[Randall Dowling]

I also remember holding about a dozen copies of ASM #129 that I pulled from a box at one of my regular shops a couple years before that, marked at around $10-$15 each. Unfortunately, I never purchased either of the books back then

 

You guys and your memories....

 

 

Why on earth would Spidey #129 be $10-$15 each in 1982-1983, when you could buy them from Mile High for $2, and nobody cared about Punisher until the mini-series came out in 1985 (and even then it was a slow, steady burn)...?

 

There are multiple ads from the era which show Spidey #129 unbroken, the same price essentially as #125-140, all the way up to 1986. One ad I can understand, but MULTIPLE ads, over years, at the same general price point...?

 

There's a double page Mile High ad in Hulk #271, centerfold, price: $2. Mile High had them, Crestohl/Ross had them, Moondance (I think it was Moondance) had them, I even think J&S had them at one point...all around $1.50-$3, and not broken out at all.

 

Come on!

 

 

Dude, there's something incredibly funny about quoting the prices in the Mile High ads from that time period. Unless you were a total chump, everybody that collected comics knew that those prices were for "VG or better copies". And that Mile High Comics was a rip off (actually, still is).

 

But you wouldn't know that if you weren't collecting comics then. You preach about using data but you seem to fail to understand that data is only as good as the interpretation. In this case, you insist that your interpretation is superior to the actual recollections of everyone that was there at the time. Fine. Stick to that. It doesn't make you right. But, stick to that.

 

The rest of us were there and remember how things went down.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Randall Dowling

[slym2none]

I say Wolverine became popular when 2 separate threads discussing his popularity appeared on CG main page.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[slym2none]

It's never a wasted experience when it involves Ernest Borgnine's thespian oeuvre.

 

Or Shelley Winters swimming underwater.

 

You call that swimming?

 

 

 

 

-slym

[Mephisto]

. Basing Wolverine popularity with readers by cover appearances that were mostly done by an artist that didn't particularly like the character is weak at best.

 

That would be a good argument...if Claremont and Cockrum were in charge of the editorial decisions at Marvel.

 

They were not.

 

It doesn't matter what the writer and artist(s) want, if the editor says "Public wants more Wolverine. Draw more Wolverine. Put Wolverine on the covers more", then the writer and artist(s) do that, or they get fired, ESPECIALLY in the Jim Shooter era.

 

Remember: Neither Claremont nor Byrne wanted to kill Phoenix. Regardless of why, the fact is, Jim Shooter stepped in and said she had to go.

 

And just how DOES a character become popular...?

 

Exposure.

 

It does not help a character's popularity if the artist doing the covers doesn't like him, and doesn't draw him on the cover, which everyone acknowledges is what draws a person in in the first place.

 

It just doesn't wash with what exists.

 

Your argument would be good but you keep going back and pointing to covers earlier in the run pre Wolverine vs. Hellfire club where most others are pointing he begins his climb. Aside from that why wasn't Storm give her own mini series first then since she appears on so many covers this obviously making her the most popular X-Men all the way past the Byrne era and into the PMS run. They could have had her take over the Morlocks in her own mini series since she was so huge based soley on her cover appearances.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I also remember holding about a dozen copies of ASM #129 that I pulled from a box at one of my regular shops a couple years before that, marked at around $10-$15 each. Unfortunately, I never purchased either of the books back then

 

You guys and your memories....

 

 

Why on earth would Spidey #129 be $10-$15 each in 1982-1983, when you could buy them from Mile High for $2, and nobody cared about Punisher until the mini-series came out in 1985 (and even then it was a slow, steady burn)...?

 

There are multiple ads from the era which show Spidey #129 unbroken, the same price essentially as #125-140, all the way up to 1986. One ad I can understand, but MULTIPLE ads, over years, at the same general price point...?

 

There's a double page Mile High ad in Hulk #271, centerfold, price: $2. Mile High had them, Crestohl/Ross had them, Moondance (I think it was Moondance) had them, I even think J&S had them at one point...all around $1.50-$3, and not broken out at all.

 

Come on!

 

 

Dude, there's something incredibly funny about quoting the prices in the Mile High ads from that time period. Unless you were a total chump, everybody that collected comics knew that those prices were for "VG or better copies". And that Mile High Comics was a rip off (actually, still is).

 

But you wouldn't know that if you weren't collecting comics then. You preach about using data but you seem to fail to understand that data is only as good as the interpretation. In this case, you insist that your interpretation is superior to the actual recollections of everyone that was there at the time. Fine. Stick to that. It doesn't make you right. But, stick to that.

 

The rest of us were there and remember how things went down.

 

Couple of things...

 

1. Do you have any printed data that contradicts anything I've posted? Anything at all, besides "what you remember"? I remember a lot of things, but have discovered that relying on memories is a very bad move, because memories are often quite wrong. Who should I believe? You, because you say so? Or the OPG, ads covering several years, published market reports written at the time, etc etc etc?

 

2. I did not only quote Mile High ads. And I did not only quote Mile High from one ad, but over a period of years. And while Mile High may have been a "ripoff", the fact is, the books were priced at OPG (Spidey #125-140, for example), from a time when OPG was pretty much dead on accurate. Was OPG a "ripoff"...?

 

3. As those who have done the research know, grade sensitivity was absolutely nothing like it is now. For 10 years, the price splits in the OPG were 33% for Good, 66% for Fine, and 100% for Mint. After that, the split widened, but Fine throughout the period was still 50% of Mint.

 

4. "You wouldn't know that if you weren't collecting then." That, of course, isn't true at all. I am well aware of that fact, for several reasons: because of my own experience with Mile High later; understanding the reality that grade sensitivity was much lower, and that it didn't matter all that much; an ability to read (Mile High, Moondance, and others explicitly stated that books were "VG" (Mile High) or "Fine to Mint" (Moondance), and others; and...the memories of those who WERE there, when it squares with the rest of the data.

 

Considering just the specific example of Spidey #129...so you got a VG copy for $2. So? The collecting public as a whole did not care (at least all that much.) If you didn't like the condition of the copy you bought, you could simply buy another one.

 

The collecting public, with the *possible* exception of those buying the Mile Highs, simply did not care about grading differences, especially for common, ordinary, non-key books like Spidey #129.

 

Imagine being at San Diego in 1983, grabbing a $2 book, and rejecting it because it had a spine tic. If you dared to explain that to a dealer, he would probably have fallen on the floor, he laughed so hard...then he'd take a magic marker and fix it....and sell it to someone else who didn't care a bit.

 

And do you know how I know all of that, without having been there myself....?

 

I read. I read many different sources, and I read as much as I can possibly get my hands on. I don't just stick to one source, and imagine that's 100% accurate, because nothing ever is. But multiple sources...? Now you start to get a real picture of what really was. It's truly amazing how much we know about history, when none of us were there.

 

 

PS..."everyone that was there at the time"...? Really? The 8-10 people who have posted is "everyone that was there at the time"...?

 

Hyperbole doesn't suit the discussion.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

. Basing Wolverine popularity with readers by cover appearances that were mostly done by an artist that didn't particularly like the character is weak at best.

 

That would be a good argument...if Claremont and Cockrum were in charge of the editorial decisions at Marvel.

 

They were not.

 

It doesn't matter what the writer and artist(s) want, if the editor says "Public wants more Wolverine. Draw more Wolverine. Put Wolverine on the covers more", then the writer and artist(s) do that, or they get fired, ESPECIALLY in the Jim Shooter era.

 

Remember: Neither Claremont nor Byrne wanted to kill Phoenix. Regardless of why, the fact is, Jim Shooter stepped in and said she had to go.

 

And just how DOES a character become popular...?

 

Exposure.

 

It does not help a character's popularity if the artist doing the covers doesn't like him, and doesn't draw him on the cover, which everyone acknowledges is what draws a person in in the first place.

 

It just doesn't wash with what exists.

 

Your argument would be good but you keep going back and pointing to covers earlier in the run pre Wolverine vs. Hellfire club

 

GS #1 to #200 is "pre Wolverine vs. Hellfire club"...?

[Mephisto]

. Basing Wolverine popularity with readers by cover appearances that were mostly done by an artist that didn't particularly like the character is weak at best.

 

That would be a good argument...if Claremont and Cockrum were in charge of the editorial decisions at Marvel.

 

They were not.

 

It doesn't matter what the writer and artist(s) want, if the editor says "Public wants more Wolverine. Draw more Wolverine. Put Wolverine on the covers more", then the writer and artist(s) do that, or they get fired, ESPECIALLY in the Jim Shooter era.

 

Remember: Neither Claremont nor Byrne wanted to kill Phoenix. Regardless of why, the fact is, Jim Shooter stepped in and said she had to go.

 

And just how DOES a character become popular...?

 

Exposure.

 

It does not help a character's popularity if the artist doing the covers doesn't like him, and doesn't draw him on the cover, which everyone acknowledges is what draws a person in in the first place.

 

It just doesn't wash with what exists.

 

Your argument would be good but you keep going back and pointing to covers earlier in the run pre Wolverine vs. Hellfire club

 

GS #1 to #200 is "pre Wolverine vs. Hellfire club"...?

 

About 40 issues worth which is a huge chunk and in another post after my intial post you again went back to compare cover appearances up until issue 115 so nice try. Of course my opinion means little in this debate since I didn't live this time period and wasn't born until after the limited series. Although you didn't answer why Storm didn't have her own Limited Series. I mean clearly an editor would have stepped in and said oh no we are in it to sell as many books as possible. Storm is clearly the most popular X-Man so she gets her own series first Woverine can wait.

[RockMyAmadeus]

. Basing Wolverine popularity with readers by cover appearances that were mostly done by an artist that didn't particularly like the character is weak at best.

 

That would be a good argument...if Claremont and Cockrum were in charge of the editorial decisions at Marvel.

 

They were not.

 

It doesn't matter what the writer and artist(s) want, if the editor says "Public wants more Wolverine. Draw more Wolverine. Put Wolverine on the covers more", then the writer and artist(s) do that, or they get fired, ESPECIALLY in the Jim Shooter era.

 

Remember: Neither Claremont nor Byrne wanted to kill Phoenix. Regardless of why, the fact is, Jim Shooter stepped in and said she had to go.

 

And just how DOES a character become popular...?

 

Exposure.

 

It does not help a character's popularity if the artist doing the covers doesn't like him, and doesn't draw him on the cover, which everyone acknowledges is what draws a person in in the first place.

 

It just doesn't wash with what exists.

 

Your argument would be good but you keep going back and pointing to covers earlier in the run pre Wolverine vs. Hellfire club

 

GS #1 to #200 is "pre Wolverine vs. Hellfire club"...?

 

About 40 issues worth which is a huge chunk and in another post after my intial post you again went back to compare cover appearances up until issue 115 so nice try. Of course my opinion means little in this debate since I didn't live this time period and wasn't born until after the limited series. Although you didn't answer why Storm didn't have her own Limited Series. I mean clearly an editor would have stepped in and said oh no we are in it to sell as many books as possible. Storm is clearly the most popular X-Man so she gets her own series first Woverine can wait.

 

I'm not really interested in confrontation-style discussion anymore ("nice try", "clearly an editor would have stepped in") If you'd like to have a discussion without the confrontational comments, I'd really be interested. I apologize if any of my comments appeared confrontational, that isn't my intent.

 

For the record, while yes, I mentioned that Storm appeared on every single cover from GS #1 to #115, I immediately, in the very next breath, stated that the comparison with Wolverine was from GS #1 to #200.

 

Here's the quote:

 

No one appeared more than she did from GS #1 to #200, a whopping 71% of the time.

 

By contrast, Wolverine only appears 49% of the time.

 

There was no comparison to Wolverine regarding the early issues.

 

(PS...my numbers are slightly off; Storm appeared on 71 COVERS, or 65% of the time.)

 

And why does your opinion mean little, simply because you weren't alive? Nobody here was alive during the US Civil War, but we know quite a lot about that.