When did Wolverine really become popular?? 2 2

[delekkerste]

RMA, are you pushing the notion that Wolverine was not a big star in the Marvel universe by the time the mini came out and Marvel did not think that it would sell a ton of copies? Yes, I agree, Frank Miller helped it sell even more (in particular, helped it sell those extra speculation copies as the Wolverine fan base was probably more interested in reading than making a buck on it), and, sure, minis were pretty new then and that was exciting (yes, I bought the Hercules mini, the falcon mini...I lost my excitement a couple of issues into the Vision/scarlet Witch mini though), but if Dave Cockrum had done the mini it would have still sold a boatload...just likely not as many folks salting away a spare 20 copies to sell later thinking they had then next DD 158. There was eager anticipation among my 9-11 year old cohort...heck even my old brother's 14-16 year old cohort...for that mini, and not just because of Frank Miller.

 

What I can't figure out is after the mini did so well why Marvel didn't do its usual try to make a quick buck and pump out a Wolvie regular series right away. From here I've read about internal political fighting at Marvel about some not liking what a violent anti-hero the character is and what not, something i was obviously not privy to as a kiddie. Seriously, the utterly horrible titles that got a series in 1983-1984 are shocking.

 

Again, spot-on. If Al Milgrom had drawn Wolverine and Frank Miller had drawn Hercules, Wolverine would still have been the runaway hit out of the two. It is bordering on absurd to try and chalk up the Wolverine mini's success to being mostly due to Miller. Wolverine vs. ninjas in Japan? That would have been a best seller in 1982 no matter who drew it. Fast forward a couple years and KP & W is one of the most wretched mini-series of the era and people still bought it because they couldn't get enough Wolverine.

 

I don't know exactly why Marvel waited until 1988 to give him his own series (I'm guessing that it's because Claremont had other plans for the character), but it's well known that people were clamoring for a solo series for years leading up to it. Anyone who thinks that the solo series marked the beginning of his superstardom is confusing effect with cause - he was, by all accounts, data, polls and other evidence, a superstar long, long before then.

 

 

 

[JazzMan]

Hulk 181 came out around October 1974. Giant Size X-Men 1 came out around May 1975. I came to know about him shortly after X-Men 94. He was a popular character already by the end of 1975 in my neck of the woods.

 

You people in the NW are always strange.

 

 

Dude, this was in the Northeast - in NYC.

 

My friend Richard and I who collected comics were big Wolverine fans by the time X-Men 100 hit the stands. I remember him lending me his Hulk 181 and X-Men 94 and me lending him my Giant Size X-Men 1.

[Logan510]

RMA, are you pushing the notion that Wolverine was not a big star in the Marvel universe by the time the mini came out and Marvel did not think that it would sell a ton of copies? Yes, I agree, Frank Miller helped it sell even more (in particular, helped it sell those extra speculation copies as the Wolverine fan base was probably more interested in reading than making a buck on it), and, sure, minis were pretty new then and that was exciting (yes, I bought the Hercules mini, the falcon mini...I lost my excitement a couple of issues into the Vision/scarlet Witch mini though), but if Dave Cockrum had done the mini it would have still sold a boatload...just likely not as many folks salting away a spare 20 copies to sell later thinking they had then next DD 158. There was eager anticipation among my 9-11 year old cohort...heck even my old brother's 14-16 year old cohort...for that mini, and not just because of Frank Miller.

 

What I can't figure out is after the mini did so well why Marvel didn't do its usual try to make a quick buck and pump out a Wolvie regular series right away. From here I've read about internal political fighting at Marvel about some not liking what a violent anti-hero the character is and what not, something i was obviously not privy to as a kiddie. Seriously, the utterly horrible titles that got a series in 1983-1984 are shocking.

 

Again, spot-on. If Al Milgrom had drawn Wolverine and Frank Miller had drawn Hercules, Wolverine would still have been the runaway hit out of the two. It is bordering on absurd to try and chalk up the Wolverine mini's success to being mostly due to Miller. Wolverine vs. ninjas in Japan? That would have been a best seller in 1982 no matter who drew it. Fast forward a couple years and KP & W is one of the most wretched mini-series of the era and people still bought it because they couldn't get enough Wolverine.

 

I don't know exactly why Marvel waited until 1988 to give him his own series (I'm guessing that it's because Claremont had other plans for the character), but it's well known that people were clamoring for a solo series for years leading up to it. Anyone who thinks that the solo series marked the beginning of his superstardom is confusing effect with cause - he was, by all accounts, data, polls and other evidence, a superstar long, long before then.

 

 

 

 

Do you remember when Incredible Hulk and Wolverine #1 was first solicited? I recall that they made it seem as if the origin of Wolverine would finally be told ( as opposed to being a reprint ) and I also remember the disappointment I felt when I finally saw it. Looking back through the lens of time I could see how someone who wasn't there might say my memory is faulty. But that feeling was so visceral, I still feel the same level of disappointment when I see that book....aside from the pretty John Byrne cover.

[VintageComics]

Hulk 181 came out around October 1974. Giant Size X-Men 1 came out around May 1975. I came to know about him shortly after X-Men 94. He was a popular character already by the end of 1975 in my neck of the woods.

 

You people in the NW are always strange.

 

 

Dude, this was in the Northeast - in NYC.

 

My friend Richard and I who collected comics were big Wolverine fans by the time X-Men 100 hit the stands. I remember him lending me his Hulk 181 and X-Men 94 and me lending him my Giant Size X-Men 1.

 

I'm just razzin' you.

 

And time to buy the wife some more shoes.

[VintageComics]

I have a question...

 

Was there another character that was exploited before the mid 1980's the way Wolverine and Punisher were (and Deadpool, Venom and Carnage later) by putting them in nearly every comic in existence at the time?

 

If there were I'm not sure I remember them being pre mid 1980's.

 

Is it something about the direct market or the way they received feedback that changed the way they marketed characters and supersaturated the market in the 1980's and 1990's that didn't happen pre 1985?

 

 

[Logan510]

I have a question...

 

Was there another character that was exploited before the mid 1980's the way Wolverine and Punisher were (and Deadpool, Venom and Carnage later) by putting them in nearly every comic in existence at the time?

 

If there were I'm not sure I remember them being pre mid 1980's.

 

Is it something about the direct market or the way they received feedback that changed the way they marketed characters and supersaturated the market in the 1980's and 1990's that didn't happen pre 1985?

 

 

Spider-Man is the only one that comes even close as far as Marvel goes.

[delekkerste]

Do you remember when Incredible Hulk and Wolverine #1 was first solicited? I recall that they made it seem as if the origin of Wolverine would finally be told ( as opposed to being a reprint ) and I also remember the disappointment I felt when I finally saw it. Looking back through the lens of time I could see how someone who wasn't there might say my memory is faulty. But that feeling was so visceral, I still feel the same level of disappointment when I see that book....aside from the pretty John Byrne cover.

 

I don't remember how I felt about the solicitation for that issue (I'm not even sure I had heard about it beforehand), but I was very excited to pick it up as it was the first time I had a chance to read Hulk #180-182.

 

And, yes, it was a pretty cover by Byrne and Abel.

[JazzMan]

Hulk 181 came out around October 1974. Giant Size X-Men 1 came out around May 1975. I came to know about him shortly after X-Men 94. He was a popular character already by the end of 1975 in my neck of the woods.

 

You people in the NW are always strange.

 

 

Dude, this was in the Northeast - in NYC.

 

My friend Richard and I who collected comics were big Wolverine fans by the time X-Men 100 hit the stands. I remember him lending me his Hulk 181 and X-Men 94 and me lending him my Giant Size X-Men 1.

 

I'm just razzin' you.

 

And time to buy the wife some more shoes.

 

I'm going to send you a picture of her shoe racks in the closet. I think it's time to start raffling some off!

[RockMyAmadeus]

I have a question...

 

Was there another character that was exploited before the mid 1980's the way Wolverine and Punisher were (and Deadpool, Venom and Carnage later) by putting them in nearly every comic in existence at the time?

 

If there were I'm not sure I remember them being pre mid 1980's.

 

Is it something about the direct market or the way they received feedback that changed the way they marketed characters and supersaturated the market in the 1980's and 1990's that didn't happen pre 1985?

 

 

You're on to something.

 

But see, that's the thing...these characters didn't improve sales so much that Marvel clearly got the message until the late 80's.

 

You had, essentially, Spiderman. Spiderman appears in Strange Tales Annual #2, FF Annual #1, Strange Tales #115, #119, X-Men #35, DD #16, 17, TTA #57, FF #73, on and on.

 

Marvel had also realized that crossovers in general sold more copies, so all the other folks crossed over, too...but none as much as Spidey.

 

Marvel didn't exploit...and maybe it's because buyers didn't make it worthwhile...Wolverine crossovers until the late 80's (1986 and up.) Did Wolvie's appearance in DD #196 improve sales over #195 and #197? If so, how much?

[VintageComics]

Hulk 181 came out around October 1974. Giant Size X-Men 1 came out around May 1975. I came to know about him shortly after X-Men 94. He was a popular character already by the end of 1975 in my neck of the woods.

 

You people in the NW are always strange.

 

 

Dude, this was in the Northeast - in NYC.

 

My friend Richard and I who collected comics were big Wolverine fans by the time X-Men 100 hit the stands. I remember him lending me his Hulk 181 and X-Men 94 and me lending him my Giant Size X-Men 1.

 

I'm just razzin' you.

 

And time to buy the wife some more shoes.

 

I'm going to send you a picture of her shoe racks in the closet. I think it's time to start raffling some off!

 

I think we can have a garage sale with just the shoes mine has never worn.

[joe_collector]

And, what kind of evidence do you have that Rogue was the most popular X-Man of 1983? This claim is totally unbelievable - she only really featured in 4 issues (UXM #171-173 and 175) that year, and she played second-fiddle in one of the best Wolverine stories ever in #172-173.

 

Rogue was popular acc. to my memory but not most popular.

 

 

That's how I remember it as well.

 

Yes, Rogue was just another reason why the 1983 X-Men spiked in sales, not the only reason.

[VintageComics]

And, what kind of evidence do you have that Rogue was the most popular X-Man of 1983? This claim is totally unbelievable - she only really featured in 4 issues (UXM #171-173 and 175) that year, and she played second-fiddle in one of the best Wolverine stories ever in #172-173.

 

Rogue was popular acc. to my memory but not most popular.

 

 

That's how I remember it as well.

 

Yes, Rogue was just another reason why the 1983 X-Men spiked in sales, not the only reason.

 

She was hot tough. Avengers Ann. #10 became a key really quickly if I remember.

 

 

[joe_collector]

I read the new X-men off the stands and Wolverine seemed to break out pretty early on, for sure with Byrne but maybe also with the Cockrum issues?

 

I posted a little series of Wolverine panels that showed the character high points, and to me, the first time I noticed him was in X-Men 98, where the retcon'ed his claws as being part of his body, rather than inside his gloves as originally intended.

 

X-Men 111 gave him some exposure when he broke his "conditioning" and escaped the circus and X-men 115 was also a big issue, as it showed had several major Wolverine panels in the Savage Land.

 

Here's some faves:

[joe_collector]

More:

[joe_collector]

And here are the two aforementioned panels that first got me to take notice of Wolverine:

[Logan510]

I read the new X-men off the stands and Wolverine seemed to break out pretty early on, for sure with Byrne but maybe also with the Cockrum issues?

 

I posted a little series of Wolverine panels that showed the character high points, and to me, the first time I noticed him was in X-Men 98, where the retcon'ed his claws as being part of his body, rather than inside his gloves as originally intended.

 

X-Men 111 gave him some exposure when he broke his "conditioning" and escaped the circus and X-men 115 was also a big issue, as it showed had several major Wolverine panels in the Savage Land.

 

Here's some faves:

 

 

I don't know if that's technically a retcon. 1) we as fans were not privy to that knowledge and 2) I don't believe Claremont was privy to Wein's intention either. Or you could say that making him older than 19 was a retcon, right?

[kav]

That's a lot of Bub action right there.

[Prince Namor]

Mark me down for another with X-Men 133 and the Mini series.

 

Maybe one could argue the last panel in 132 would be that pivotal moment where Wolverine's was destined for much greater fame.

 

That's not what's in question. What's in question is when did it actually have the impact.

 

Memory can tell us when it happened for each of us individually, but not collectively.

 

In March 1980, having Bryne on the book for 2 years, it was still lagging behind the sales of Marvel Team Up by 60,000 copies a month!

 

The print numbers show that 13 months after #132, the book was selling about 30,000 more copies a month (a minor bump up), which was still 40,000 less than the Avengers and 100,000 less than Marvel's top character in Amazing Spider-man.

 

From April 1981 to April of 1982 it's average sales went up about 68,000 to 84,000 copies a month.

This was BEFORE the mini-series. So more people were coming to the book.

 

From April 1982 to May of 1983 it's average sales went up about 37,000 to 54,000 copies a month.

So the mini-series, based on the publication numbers of Marvel, didn't make as much a difference in the X-Men sales, as they'd had BEFORE the mini-series.

 

From May of 1983 to June 1984 it's average sales went up about 20,000 copies.

Less than six months after the mini-series was complete, sales for the X-Men's book looked like it might be on the back end of a gradual climb.

 

It wasn't. It continued it's slow climb.

It just doesn't look like, based on these publication numbers, that it happened overnight.

 

It was a gradual climb.

[Prince Namor]

Personally, I think Secret Wars probably helped his mainstream visibility more than anything up to that point.

[Prince Namor]

I have a question...

 

Was there another character that was exploited before the mid 1980's the way Wolverine and Punisher were (and Deadpool, Venom and Carnage later) by putting them in nearly every comic in existence at the time?

 

If there were I'm not sure I remember them being pre mid 1980's.

 

Is it something about the direct market or the way they received feedback that changed the way they marketed characters and supersaturated the market in the 1980's and 1990's that didn't happen pre 1985?

 

 

Well Spider-man obviously.... had three new story monthly titles... wait, four if you count MTU... plus Marvel Tales reprints...

 

Then... they had a SECOND Avengers monthly book (West Coast) before they ever took a chance on a Wolvie monthly series.

 

They had a Punisher monthly book a year BEFORE Wolvie had a monthly book (and even started a SECOND Punisher book that coincided with Wolvie's monthly #1)

 

Marvel had begun the process of milking it's characters.

Wolverine just wasn't one of it's first choices.