Copper age key issues 3 3

[sakaridis]

Oh and Born Again is definitely the best Daredevil story ever! Mazzucchelli

[Monstro]

Can you imagine if they we're somehow able to get Wrightson back on Swamp Thing when Moore started writing it. That would have been sweet. I wonder what the would be selling for today.

[Bosco685]

But on the initial point, I'm 100% with you! (thumbs u Alan Moore was in no way influenced by Frank Miller's writing in absolutely no point in his career. Hell, I could probably argue that the reverse (Miller taking a hint from Moore) might have been true in the years after Swamp Thing and Marvelman.

(thumbs u

 

Oddly enough, both started coming into their own as major comic influences around 1981-1983.

 

Miller's defining moment of being seen as a major writing force is Daredevil 168 (January, 1981). He'd already received his warmup co-writing on the title, but now it was his show after convincing Shooter he could turn the character around from a dog to a major force.

 

Alan Moore had been writing and drawing sideline characters before getting involved in Doctor Who, Judge Dredd, and Captain Britain stories in the early 80's. Then, stories with Marvelman and V For Vendetta through Warrior Magazine.

 

So not sure if they influenced each other, but they really started taking off in that 1981-1983 period in their own markets, and would later grow into much more recognized creative powerhouses from there on out. Not sure if they were aware of each other at that point, but I doubt they influenced each other.

 

By the way, here is a very interesting interview with Alan Moore about his influences over the years. He mentions Flash, Action Comics, Detective Comics as major influences, though his concern was it was fantasy land where they lived. I wonder if this is why he wanted to create more realistic stories to bring characters into the world we all live in versus happy-peppy environments all the time.

 

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=511

[sakaridis]

But on the initial point, I'm 100% with you! (thumbs u Alan Moore was in no way influenced by Frank Miller's writing in absolutely no point in his career. Hell, I could probably argue that the reverse (Miller taking a hint from Moore) might have been true in the years after Swamp Thing and Marvelman.

(thumbs u

 

Oddly enough, both started coming into their own as major comic influences around 1981-1983.

 

Miller's defining moment of being seen as a major writing force is Daredevil 168 (January, 1981). He'd already received his warmup co-writing on the title, but now it was his show after convincing Shooter he could turn the character around from a dog to a major force.

 

Alan Moore had been writing and drawing sideline characters before getting involved in Doctor Who, Judge Dredd, and Captain Britain stories in the early 80's. Then, stories with Marvelman and V For Vendetta through Warrior Magazine.

 

So not sure if they influenced each other, but they really started taking off in that 1981-1983 period in their own markets, and would later grow into much more recognized creative powerhouses from there on out. Not sure if they were aware of each other at that point, but I doubt they influenced each other.

 

By the way, here is a very interesting interview with Alan Moore about his influences over the years. He mentions Flash, Action Comics, Detective Comics as major influences, though his concern was it was fantasy land where they lived. I wonder if this is why he wanted to create more realistic stories to bring characters into the world we all live in versus happy-peppy environments all the time.

 

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=511

 

Thanks for the link, dude! (thumbs u

[Bosco685]

Thanks for the link, dude! (thumbs u

My two favorite collecting focuses are Alan Moore Swamp Things and Frank Miller Daredevils. Love 'em both!

[RockMyAmadeus]

Um.

 

How can Frank Miller have opened the doors for Alan Moore, when Alan Moore was writing comics long before Frank Miller? Sure, Moore's first US comic came out in late 1983, while Miller's first written book came out in late 1980, but Miller worked for Marvel, Moore for DC, and Miller's writing wasn't recognized as anything amazing (aside from killing off Elektra) until at the earliest, Ronin (1983) and at latest, Dark Knight Returns (1986...to which I am leaning.)

 

As well, DD remained bi-monthly for several months after Miller took over. What was particularly "new style" about DD #168-191? It's typical superhero fare, with the introduction of Ninja as major story element.

 

And Moore coming to DC was almost exclusively the result of efforts by editors Karen Berger and Len Wein.

 

I really don't think Miller influenced Moore or his career in any possible way.

While I totally agree that Alan Moore was in no way influenced by Frank Miller in any case (and yes, this is an absolute statement!), I think you're underestimating Miller's work in his initial Daredevil run. The writing, in terms of plot and subject matter was definitely more than standard superhero fare (though I'll grant you, the dialogues still weren't nothing to write home about) and the overall storytelling (pacing, layouts, composition) were miles ahead of anything being done in mainstream comics at that time.

 

I won't argue that Miller was a great innovator (he was basically "borrowing" elements from the works of Steranko and -mostly- Eisner, while applying a Kurtzmanic sense of timing in the way the story flowed through the panels), but he did stuff that were definitely "different" compared to the average Marvel and DC comic book.

 

And even though the sales of Daredevil took a while to increase, once they did, the title became a mega hit, surpassing even the X-men for a little while IIRC.

 

 

Wellll......hmmm.

 

Ok, I come from this from the perspective of reading these as an adult, and after I read books like Sandman, Watchmen, AM's Swamp Thing, Animal Man, etc. I also grew up reading no comics whatsoever, but actual books. I cut my teeth on the Oz series (highly recommended) and had read LOTR by the time I was 13. I had also read Dune by that point, and was a fond reader of James Herriot. I even read Clive Cussler.

 

So that's where I come from as a reader. Most of the comics up until the mid-80's I wouldn't have tolerated in any way, because they were so radically inferior to the best novels that had been published.

 

I read the original Miller DD run after all of this, and....it's ok. I don't think it's great, and it suffers from the same problem that Dark Phoenix Saga suffers from: the dialogue is so painful at times, it's difficult to read.

 

(as an aside, I also think that Dark Phoenix is wildly overrated...while a stellar run THEMATICALLY, and well plotted [Claremont's strength to that point] there are moments of sheer groan inducing dialogue worthy of the absolute worst Telenovellas. Most of the rabid fans I meet of Dark Phoenix are men who read the story as children/young adults, and really had nothing better with which to compare.)

 

Miller fixed this problem by DKR, but there's still painful and awkward dialogue even in Ronin. Ok, I'll grant that it was better than almost everything out there at the time (aside from X-Men and New Teen Titans), being the best of "pretty low brow" isn't saying much.

 

Artistically, absolutely beautiful, no question. Brilliant, groundbreaking, innovative, some of the best material published.

 

As a writer...? , not so much.

[sakaridis]

(as an aside, I also think that Dark Phoenix is wildly overrated...while a stellar run THEMATICALLY, and well plotted [Claremont's strength to that point] there are moments of sheer groan inducing dialogue worthy of the absolute worst Telenovellas.

I totally agree with this. Actually, my views on the Dark Phoenix (and Claremont's run in general) have hurt my popularity many times.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like it in a "superheroes meet teen drama meet daily soap opera" way, and I think there are some pretty interesting characters in there, but from a purely technical standpoint, the writing leaves a lot to be desired...

 

And as far as Miller's writing, I don't think we really disagree there. I just wanted to point out (emphasize, if you will) his achievements (and influence) in the storytelling/visual narrative department. (thumbs u

[RockMyAmadeus]

For the record, I think what Byrne, Perez, and Miller were doing in the late 70's/early 80's was absolutely mind blowing, and set the stage for the A. Adams, the Sienkewicz', and even the McFarlanes to come along later. If you're a fan of art for art's sake, it was truly an amazing time period in the artform.

 

[sakaridis]

For the record, I think what Byrne, Perez, and Miller were doing in the late 70's/early 80's was absolutely mind blowing, and set the stage for the A. Adams, the Sienkewicz', and even the McFarlanes to come along later. If you're a fan of art for art's sake, it was truly an amazing time period in the artform.

 

Agreed! (thumbs u

 

I'd also add Walt Simonson to the bunch. He may not have been that successful commercially (at least not initially), but his work did influence many artists from the generation that followed.

[Comicopolis]

For the record, I think what Byrne, Perez, and Miller were doing in the late 70's/early 80's was absolutely mind blowing, and set the stage for the A. Adams, the Sienkewicz', and even the McFarlanes to come along later. If you're a fan of art for art's sake, it was truly an amazing time period in the artform.

 

Agreed! (thumbs u

 

I'd also add Walt Simonson to the bunch. He may not have been that successful commercially (at least not initially), but his work did influence many artists from the generation that followed.

 

I concur with you both (thumbs u

[Bosco685]

I'd also add Walt Simonson to the bunch. He may not have been that successful commercially (at least not initially), but his work did influence many artists from the generation that followed.

And he did marry the model for House of Secrets 92, so that notches him way up above other creators.

 

[sakaridis]

I'd also add Walt Simonson to the bunch. He may not have been that successful commercially (at least not initially), but his work did influence many artists from the generation that followed.

And he did marry the model for House of Secrets 92, so that notches him way up above other creators.

Excellent point! (thumbs u Weezie was obviously a hottie in her younger days.

[Bosco685]

I'd also add Walt Simonson to the bunch. He may not have been that successful commercially (at least not initially), but his work did influence many artists from the generation that followed.

And he did marry the model for House of Secrets 92, so that notches him way up above other creators.

Excellent point! (thumbs u Weezie was obviously a hottie in her younger days.

It would appear so.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Excellent point! (thumbs u Weezie was obviously a hottie in her younger days.

 

She's a hottie NOW! I saw her in NY in Feb, RAAWWWRRRRR!

 

 

[MR.COMICBOOK]

(as an aside, I also think that Dark Phoenix is wildly overrated...while a stellar run THEMATICALLY, and well plotted [Claremont's strength to that point] there are moments of sheer groan inducing dialogue worthy of the absolute worst Telenovellas.

I totally agree with this. Actually, my views on the Dark Phoenix (and Claremont's run in general) have hurt my popularity many times.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like it in a "superheroes meet teen drama meet daily soap opera" way, and I think there are some pretty interesting characters in there, but from a purely technical standpoint, the writing leaves a lot to be desired...

 

And as far as Miller's writing, I don't think we really disagree there. I just wanted to point out (emphasize, if you will) his achievements (and influence) in the storytelling/visual narrative department. (thumbs u

 

Re-reading the Claremont X-men essentials are brutal and I mean brutal. I am now glad that I am not the only one who thinks that, I loved the Uncanny X-men stuff when I young but trying to re-read it now is a chore.Byrne,Cockrum and Smith had a lot to do with his success.

Edited June 29, 2009 by MR.COMICBOOK

[sckao]

(as an aside, I also think that Dark Phoenix is wildly overrated...while a stellar run THEMATICALLY, and well plotted [Claremont's strength to that point] there are moments of sheer groan inducing dialogue worthy of the absolute worst Telenovellas.

I totally agree with this. Actually, my views on the Dark Phoenix (and Claremont's run in general) have hurt my popularity many times.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like it in a "superheroes meet teen drama meet daily soap opera" way, and I think there are some pretty interesting characters in there, but from a purely technical standpoint, the writing leaves a lot to be desired...

 

And as far as Miller's writing, I don't think we really disagree there. I just wanted to point out (emphasize, if you will) his achievements (and influence) in the storytelling/visual narrative department. (thumbs u

 

Re-reading the Claremont X-men essentials are brutal and I mean brutal. I am now glad that I am not the only one who thinks that, I loved the Uncanny X-men stuff when I young but trying to re-read it now is a chore.Byrne,Cockrum and Smith had a lot to do with his success.

 

What.. you got sick of reading about the "nigh-invulnerable, organic metal" of Colossus... or the phrase "And I you... with all my heart?"

 

 

 

[sakaridis]

(as an aside, I also think that Dark Phoenix is wildly overrated...while a stellar run THEMATICALLY, and well plotted [Claremont's strength to that point] there are moments of sheer groan inducing dialogue worthy of the absolute worst Telenovellas.

I totally agree with this. Actually, my views on the Dark Phoenix (and Claremont's run in general) have hurt my popularity many times.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like it in a "superheroes meet teen drama meet daily soap opera" way, and I think there are some pretty interesting characters in there, but from a purely technical standpoint, the writing leaves a lot to be desired...

 

And as far as Miller's writing, I don't think we really disagree there. I just wanted to point out (emphasize, if you will) his achievements (and influence) in the storytelling/visual narrative department. (thumbs u

 

Re-reading the Claremont X-men essentials are brutal and I mean brutal. I am now glad that I am not the only one who thinks that, I loved the Uncanny X-men stuff when I young but trying to re-read it now is a chore.Byrne,Cockrum and Smith had a lot to do with his success.

 

What.. you got sick of reading about the "nigh-invulnerable, organic metal" of Colossus... or the phrase "And I you... with all my heart?"

 

 

Prose rarely gets more purple than "vintage Claremont". (thumbs u

[RockMyAmadeus]

This was a good thread. We should do this more often...

[RockMyAmadeus]

[seanfingh]

 

Bump for the n00b.