RockMyAmadeus Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 ...and it's Jon Sable, Freelance, not Silver Sable. For the record. I don't think RockMyAmadeus was talking about Mike Grell's excellent Jon Sable Freelance in his previous post. I'm sure the Silver Sable reference was about something else. At least, I hope so. You are correct! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 ...and it's Jon Sable, Freelance, not Silver Sable. For the record. I don't think RockMyAmadeus was talking about Mike Grell's excellent Jon Sable Freelance in his previous post. I'm sure the Silver Sable reference was about something else. At least, I hope so. Since his parenthetical immediately followed a reference to 90's drek, it definitely was a reference to the hideous 90's Marvel, Silver Sable, and not the decent 80's Grell book. I didn't need to say anything....you guys did it for me. You rock! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 (see, if I read the whole thread BEFORE responding, I wouldn't have needed to post....but what good does that do my post count, I ask you? NOTHING! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 (Now I'm just shamelessly bumping my post count....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sckao Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 And #20 was continued from #19, which was continued from #18, etc. It was a long story arc that was essentially wrapped up in #21. In fact, I imagine quite a few readers didn't even notice the difference in writers because it was fairly seamless, wespecially with Bissette & Totleben continuing as artists... And, of course, Alan Moore being Alan Moore, there continued to be elements from Pasko's run prior all the way up to American Gothic. He didn't just ditch what had come before. Well, if the idea that Swamp Thing #21 is the start of the Copper Age, it doesn't really make sense to start it with Moore's SECOND issue. (They didn't reprint Swamp Thing #20 until this last TPB.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiverbones Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 I think it does make sense, because #21 is absolutely the breakthrough issue. #20 is more of a wrap up, with #21 he drops the bombshell and really comes into the series with everything that would reverberate in the industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sckao Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 I think it does make sense, because #21 is absolutely the breakthrough issue. #20 is more of a wrap up, with #21 he drops the bombshell and really comes into the series with everything that would reverberate in the industry. I disagree. I just reread #20 and #21 (and even #19). Even in #20, the classic Moore'isms are there. The fearful symmetry. The cadence of his writing. The irony of the final sentence of a symmetrical two-page spread punctuated by the staccato rhythm of the first line on the following page. It's not so much the PLOT of Swamp Thing as it is the WRITING in my opinion. With Swamp Thing #20, the world was put on notice that something special was happening. Dan Day drew #20 but he was inked by Totleben. Bissette drew #21 with a co-credit to Totleben on #22. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Hmmmm...yes, you're right, I'd forgotten that Day pencilled the issue....but Totleben's inks are so distinctive and strong, it wasn't that much of a change. Issue #20 was much more of a wrap-up to several Pasko threads. #21 was the issue that did it. #21 was revolutionary. Even if #20 was classic Moore, #21 was...something totally different. It's like Hulk #180 and #181. The first gives you a taste...a great taste, no doubt....but the second was really what started it all. I have no problem marking #21 as the beginning, rather than #20. DC apparently didn't either, with the first trade starting at #21. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogami Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 (how's that analysis of the B&W explosion, noljoner...?) and I completely agree. I just cannot understate that for a time, it was possible for two guys drawing and writing comic books in their garage/living room/dining room to create a book to rival the big two. (and don't forget about Destroyer Duck!) There were so many great independent Comic book publishers that were able to enter the market at that time, (B&W AND color). It was, for me, a very exciting time in comic books. The cross-pollenization, the influx of new, deserving talent, the influx of startup money, etc. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogami Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 A well written post, but I am not arguing any of that. I am simply saying, in determining an age ending or a new one beginning, I think the massive change that comics went through after 50 years is more important. Another important example is Disney comics also ceased during 1984 with Donald Duck being it's last hold out. It's not that each genre was so important to comic collectors, it's that they were to the public, and that is when that changed, and that is why to me, Bronze ends in 1984. the sole reason. I don't say that copper starts in 1984 because of the B&W explosion, but I do say it's one of the many changes that happened to start Copper. there have been underground & alternative comics for 2 decades by that point, they gained in popularity because of the direct shop. I would say that Alan Moore Starting Swamp thing is a more important start of Copper then the B&W explosion because that changed comics to the core in a larger degree then the B&W explosion. As a side note, I read all of those B&Ws growing up, and some of my favorite comics of all time are things like Love & rockets, Flaming Carrot & Yummy Fur. I am not looking at these with prejudice against them. Matt, I'm not deriding your position, but I think if you simply look at influence (what the other generational markers hinge on. Superman, Flash, don't know the bronze aged marker), it becomes clear that TMNT 1 is the clear frontrunner. (and I think your idea that Moore's Swamp Thing run has real legs) 4 movies 3 or more cartoon series dozens of toy lines 6+ comic book lines, and still printing currently trades that have almost never gone out of print large cultural influence (adjective, adjective, adjective, noun comics!!!) It's clear as day to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogami Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 It's cool to post without reading the rest of the thread and realise you aren't far off the mark in general consensus with guys you respect. I am a huge Alan Moore fan, and am just recently reading thru ST for the first time, and am able to automatically realise it's brilliance. Seeing RMA put Moore and FM in order ( ) and knowing Matt's love for the swampy, I'm glad to know I gave it credit before reading the rest of the thread- I stand by my comments though. Literarilly, yes, I can see how Swamp Thing beggatting (is that a word?) the likes of Gaiman, Vaughn and Morrison are more important, but culturally as significant? nah. To quote Harlan Ellison, "What Have Turtles Wrought?" hehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cujobyte Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 After this thread, I'm running out to buy the TPB of Swamp Thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sakaridis Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 After this thread, I'm running out to buy the TPB of Swamp Thing! You're in for a real treat! (thumbs u Man, what I'd give to be able to read those for the first time again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisco37 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 yup, I think memory fades, but it is really hard to underestimate the importance of the B&W explosion, the second great wave of independent comic books and a huge boon to LCS (until it busted em. ). And of course, TMNT 1 was the landmark comic, (not the first, but the greatest) of the B&WE. Did you read my analysis of that in "What modern will be worth the most in 20 years"...? In my most humble opinion, I think it's dead on balls. Me too, brother. I just got word that a couple of my Copper Age semi-keys from my last submission were as sweet as I thought they were: Dark Horse Presents 24 11/88 Dark Horse Comics 9.8 WHITE Dark Horse Presents 10 9/87 Dark Horse Comics 9.8 WHITE Legend of Zelda 1 1990 Valiant 9.4 WHITE I know only you fellow Copper goofballs would appreciate them. Fantastic! I have TWO copies of DHP #24 in for pre-screen @ 9.8 as we speak! There were only 6 on the last census update, so we'll see.... I love DHP #24...one of the coolest books of the 80's...wildly underrated, for what it is. If there's an Aliens 5....whoa nelly! It was hot for awhile back in the day. Cooled off considerably since then. Still, I agree with you. Great book. Hope you get both back as 9.8, and congrats to the other poster with the 9.8. Hard to find really nice DHP's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisco37 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Hmmmm...yes, you're right, I'd forgotten that Day pencilled the issue....but Totleben's inks are so distinctive and strong, it wasn't that much of a change. Isn't Totlebon one of the most underated artists of the past 30 years? All of his stuff on the "Moore books" (Swamp Thing, MM) is just fantastic. So detailed and precise. Just beautiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comicopolis Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Hmmmm...yes, you're right, I'd forgotten that Day pencilled the issue....but Totleben's inks are so distinctive and strong, it wasn't that much of a change. Isn't Totlebon one of the most underated artists of the past 30 years? All of his stuff on the "Moore books" (Swamp Thing, MM) is just fantastic. So detailed and precise. Just beautiful. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogami Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 I actually haaaaaaaaaaaaaateeeeee his work. so irregular. no consistency, and the man simply has trouble drawing two eyes that match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisco37 Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 I actually haaaaaaaaaaaaaateeeeee his work. so irregular. no consistency, and the man simply has trouble drawing two eyes that match. For Real? "Different Strokes" I suppose. But, you've got to be in the minority.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogami Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 I must be, because he got work, but ugh. blech. yuk. And I respect your opinion on many things, comic book related! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockMyAmadeus Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Hmmmm...yes, you're right, I'd forgotten that Day pencilled the issue....but Totleben's inks are so distinctive and strong, it wasn't that much of a change. Isn't Totlebon one of the most underated artists of the past 30 years? All of his stuff on the "Moore books" (Swamp Thing, MM) is just fantastic. So detailed and precise. Just beautiful. John Totleben is one of the greatest artists since Barry Windsor Smith and Bernie Wrightson. WILDLY, WILDLY underrated. You want brilliance? Swamp Thing #53. Every page a visual feast. And seriously, if some of you out there reading this have NOT read Alan moore's Swamp Thing, come on....what the hell are you waiting for? I've convinced people who have NEVER...IN THEIR LIVES...read a DC book to read Swamp Thing and they LOVED it. Committed Marvel guys? Doesn't matter. Go read it, people. #20-#64. You won't be disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
