PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[PovertyRow]

I totally though it was new!

 

Sticklinger!

[thehumantorch]

If you dont want the books I will refund your damed money, I am not so hard up that it makes a world of difference. Its ridiculous to em just as much as you. I have never had any issues on these boards, and hopefully never do again. If you really dont want the books don't take them.

 

But do NOT make me sound some whiny little girl, I contacted you NUMEROUS times and got no response. It is frikkin rude, and a waste of my time. I will have you removed, but honestly I feel like not doing it out of spite. You really pizzed me off now, do not ever act like I have been anything other then nice to you. I have had the books sitting here for months, and I just finally saw you post again.

 

Resurection - . You said to chunky "I will have you removed, but honestly I feel like not doing it out of spite ".

 

Does that still hold?

 

To be honest the conversations on both sides have been near unintelligble. Too much anger and too wordy. No one has just laid out a simple timeline and responded to it. The "resurrection removed himself from the PM" is odd and I still am not sure to how that fits in the chain.

 

From what I have seen Chunky paid you the $50. You even offered to refund it. You said if he paid that would be the end of it. So how does this sit with you?

 

Hang on here. It appears that chunky has fullfilled his side of the transaction.

A person who has done so should be removed from the list even if the person

who nominated him is still steamed. The point of the list is to identify people

who have not completed their side of the deal and correct their behaviour, not

to keep them on the list until both sides are kissing up.

[bababooey]

babaooey - just to clarify on your quoting me: "I am glad to read this but I am confused because we already HAVE agreed on both a PM and a "reasonable" waiting period for reply to a PM." and your reply in red This is very old news but some folks are acting like it is all a new concept.

 

When I said we have already agreed - I was not saying this situation created the PM/reasonable time thing. I was saying that this is in fact old news that hearkens to the past history of the Probation Discussions.

 

If you were just reinforcing my words great and appreciated, but I did not want folks to think I was in agreement that this PM/time to respond rule was a newly minted one! (thumbs u

No sorry my message was directed at JazzMan's insistence that CB go back on the PL and could only be removed by Pat when the addition seemed a bit premature based on comments read here and my own opinion.

[JazzMan]

OK, so I've been going off the original post from Divad

 

I'm thinking we should start a Forum Sales "Probation" Thread where forum members can post notices of non-paying members, i.e., those that have posted the little guy in response to sales threads, and suddenly developed amnesia when it comes time to pay.

 

 

You can also post, "I paid for it, now where is it" messages here as well. Probation is probation.

 

 

I suggest a 1-month waiting period on any transaction before outing the scoundrel here. If the issue hasn't been resolved in a month, chances are, it's gone to the dogs!

 

 

Updates will be provided on a daily basis, when possible. Names will be removed from the Probation List upon notification of resolution between the buyer and seller. Let's try to be responsible here, and have the thread serve a purpose to the community.

 

What does everyone think? Perhaps it will work better than the "witch hunt" threads we've seen in the past. Comments welcome.

 

I agree that we may need to tweak the verbiage and maybe just sticky the basis in which we place someone on probation rather than having an ever growing discussion of what we should do in this or that particular case.

 

With that spirit in mind should we agree on a few points?

 

To get on the Probation list you must:

1- Enter into an agreement to either buy or sell a comic that initiated on these boards

2- Not consummated the agreement within 30 days or within the time that both buyer and seller agreed to

3- Accuser (either buyer or seller) has incontrovertible proof that they have, in good faith, made attempts to contact the other party either via PM, email, phone or other means that leaves an audit trail

4- Grievances must be brought to the Probation Discussions thread and be discussed for a period of 48 hours, which time the accused party will be notified of the ongoing discussion via PM

5- If after 48 hours the grievance is still unresolved to the accuser's satisfaction or the original terms have not been met then the accused will be placed on the Probation List

 

To be removed from the Probation list you must:

1- Get approval from the original accuser to be removed from the Probation thread

2- In absence of the accuser chiming in to remove the accused, provide proof that the original terms and conditions have now been met and have them discussed by community in the Probation Discussions thread where a consensus will determine the outcome. (NOTE: This is currently not the case but I see that there may be some instances where this will and has been true)

 

What do you think?

[TheWatcher]

From what we can piece together it probably went something like this: they thought they could get more than what John had offered. The truth was very different, so they reached out to the highest offer they'd received. What John paid was what he had intially offered them.

 

 

 

 

Fast forward to Wed. I get a call from John in the afternoon asking me if I was still interested in looking at the collection he had told me about. It seems that the sellers (Andrew aka holyghost & the owner of the books, James) had changed their mind and accepted the offer that he had made weeks ago. After many calls back and forth between the three of us (myself, John, seller), we had run into a hitch as the sellers wanted me to view the collection the next day (Thurs) but I couldn't swing that. Temporary plans were made to talk about viewing the collection some time the next week. In the early evening I got a call from John asking if I would be okay meeting with the sellers on Friday at a bank, looking over the books, paying them if everything was in order, and take possession of said books. I agreed and I set up a meeting point with the sellers on Thurs.

 

Fast forward to Friday. That morning I came across Brad's thread in CG about a deal gone bad. Once I read the Probation thread and saw who it was, I immediately called John and left him a voicemail and followed that with a call to Brad (and left him a voicemail). Neither one of us had any idea Brad had been in negotiations for this collection or that a deal had been reached between the two parties until reading the thread. Andrew (holyghost) had said that other people had been by to look at the books, but never was it mentioned that they had agreed to a price with someone else. So with much trepidation, I met with the sellers, looked over the books, paid them, and took possession of them.

 

I talked to Brad that afternoon and explained what I knew of the situation, offered up some options for restitution, and told him we would find some way to square things away with him

 

I just reread Brad's original statement and he said the deal was finalized on Wednesday, the same day you said John got a call that the Seller accepted his standing offer from weeks before.

Brad also said the seller sold the books to John for more than 2X Brad's offer.

It doesn't make sense that the seller would accept an offer from Brad for less than half of John's original offer. I suspect John's original offer was lowball, the seller struck a deal with Brad, called John whereupon he doubled Brad's offer.

Brad was obviousy used for leverage in all of this.

[PovertyRow]

OK, so I've been going off the original post from Divad

 

I'm thinking we should start a Forum Sales "Probation" Thread where forum members can post notices of non-paying members, i.e., those that have posted the little guy in response to sales threads, and suddenly developed amnesia when it comes time to pay.

 

 

You can also post, "I paid for it, now where is it" messages here as well. Probation is probation.

 

 

I suggest a 1-month waiting period on any transaction before outing the scoundrel here. If the issue hasn't been resolved in a month, chances are, it's gone to the dogs!

 

 

Updates will be provided on a daily basis, when possible. Names will be removed from the Probation List upon notification of resolution between the buyer and seller. Let's try to be responsible here, and have the thread serve a purpose to the community.

 

What does everyone think? Perhaps it will work better than the "witch hunt" threads we've seen in the past. Comments welcome.

 

I agree that we may need to tweak the verbiage and maybe just sticky the basis in which we place someone on probation rather than having an ever growing discussion of what we should do in this or that particular case.

 

With that spirit in mind should we agree on a few points?

 

To get on the Probation list you must:

1- Enter into an agreement to either buy or sell a comic that initiated on these boards

2- Not consummated the agreement within 30 days or within the time that both buyer and seller agreed to

3- Accuser (either buyer or seller) has incontrovertible proof that they have, in good faith, made attempts to contact the other party either via PM, email, phone or other means that leaves an audit trail

4- Grievances must be brought to the Probation Discussions thread and be discussed for a period of 48 hours, which time the accused party will be notified of the ongoing discussion via PM

5- If after 48 hours the grievance is still unresolved to the accuser's satisfaction or the original terms have not been met then the accused will be placed on the Probation List

 

To be removed from the Probation list you must:

1- Get approval from the original accuser to be removed from the Probation thread

2- In absence of the accuser chiming in to remove the accused, provide proof that the original terms and conditions have now been met and have them discussed by community in the Probation Discussions thread where a consensus will determine the outcome. (NOTE: This is currently not the case but I see that there may be some instances where this will and has been true)

 

What do you think?

 

Jazz - I am doing the same thing. Nice to see we be on the same page. But Number 1 is incorrect. The HOS/PL is now for ANY transaction regardless of the venue between board members. It has been this way for a couple of months or so.

 

I will be publishing what I came up with as well. Hopefully between us we can get a sticky posted wit the rules being outlined so there will be no more miscommunication.

[JazzMan]

I can dig it, Pov. (thumbs u

[PovertyRow]

I can dig it, Pov. (thumbs u

 

Cool, Daddy-o! Time for some Bix and some Jelly Roll!

[PovertyRow]

This is my first pass at the Probation List Rules. It is a little long but it really needs to be to cover everything that has been brought up over the years.

 

PLEASE feel free to clarify points, suggest changes, additions, subtractions etc. We do not need to rush through this in a day.

 

Once we get a finalized version I suggest we ask Arch or Gemma to post this in the the Guidelines Stickies in the Want To Buy and Forum Only Selling. I don't see a sticky in the Sales Advertising - eBay thread but there should be a guidlines sticky made for that and this included.

 

Here we go:

 

HOS and Probation List Rules

 

1) The 30-Day Rule

a) If a transaction between board members is not completed within 30 days, the offended party may submit the offender's name for inclusion to the HOS/Probation List (hereafter called the PL)

 

b) If the transaction is agreed on by both parties to take longer than 30 days - for example, a transaction involving time payments over a longer time, the 30 day clock begins from the time the agreed upon conditions were violated.

 

c) The 30-day rule is suspended if the accused refuses to complete the transaction or if the transaction cannot be completed due to, for example, the item being sold to someone else.

 

d) A Transaction between board members is not confined to the CGC Message Boards. Any transaction between forum members, regardless of the venue, is eligible for inclusion in the PL.

 

2) Notification on the Probation Discussion Thread

a) After the 30 Day Rule is fulfilled, the accuser will send a PM to the accused informing them the issue is being submitted to the Probation Discussion Thread for their inclusion in the PL.

 

b) After the PM is sent the accuser may submit the accused for inclusion in the PL via the Probation Discussion Thread.

 

3) Being Placed On The PL

a) After a 72-hour waiting period, if the accused does not respond they will be placed on the PL.

 

b) If the accused responds in the Probation Discussion Thread and it is determined the conditions of the transaction was not met, they will be added to the PL.

 

d) If the accused is not available during that 72-hour period and is placed on the PL, they are free to later respond in the Probation Discussion Thread and present their side.

 

e) If the accused has not responded in the Probation Discussion Thread but continues to post on the boards, a reply can be made that says, "Forum Member XYZ (fill in name of forum member) has submitted your name for the Probation List. Please go to the Probation Discussion Thread and address this."

This reply can be made by any forum member and in as many threads as the accused has posted in.

 

4) Removal From The PL

a) If the accuser requests the accused be removed form the PL, they will be removed.

 

b) If the accused makes full restitution, they will be removed from the PL. This is not subject to the wishes of the accuser.

 

5) Probation List versus Hall Of Shame

a) The Probation List is for transactions that have not been fulfilled as promised.

 

b) The Hall Of Shame is for serious transgressions. For example, selling a book/books and sending nothing of value in the package. Interfering with someone's business. Being a multiple offender.

 

c) The Hall Of Shame candidate is subject to all of the above rules.

 

d) Inclusion in the Hall Of Shame must be decided by a poll.

 

[bababooey]

Awesome, I have a possible suggestion

 

2 c) Nomination in Probation Discussion Thread

Outline as completely as possible the circumstances surrounding the transaction in dispute, include hyperlinks to board transactions when possible.

Please list all contact/attempted contact along with dates. If a sellers grievance cannot be completed (ie-book sold elsewhere for less) please outline proposed path to resolution.

Note: Seller may re-list any book sold when a post-invoice follow up PM regarding payment has not been responded to for 10 days.

 

Not sure if any of that has been covered here specifically, I've seen discussions about this since sellers are stuck holding books even when they smell a turd.

 

 

 

[divad]

I say we just lynch 'em and move along . . .

 

 

[PovertyRow]

I say we just lynch 'em and move along . . .

 

 

 

[PovertyRow]

Awesome, I have a possible suggestion

 

2 c) Nomination in Probation Discussion Thread

Outline as completely as possible the circumstances surrounding the transaction in dispute, include hyperlinks to board transactions when possible.

Please list all contact/attempted contact along with dates. If a sellers grievance cannot be completed (ie-book sold elsewhere for less) please outline proposed path to resolution.

Note: Seller may re-list any book sold when a post-invoice follow up PM regarding payment has not been responded to for 10 days.

 

Not sure if any of that has been covered here specifically, I've seen discussions about this since sellers are stuck holding books even when they smell a turd.

 

 

 

Cool baba! Good idea. It deserrves a separate heading such as "Content of PL Accusation" or some such.

 

I will be modifying the original list. I don't want to keep reposting with modifications so will await more suggestions and make a second pass including them.

[dopy02]

how did something that use to be so simple evolve into this quagmire?

 

"bust a deal, face the wheel."

[PovertyRow]

how did something that use to be so simple evolve into this quagmire?

 

"bust a deal, face the wheel."

 

It never WAS simple. It only LOOKED simple until it started to be implemented. With people's reputations here on the line and money/product at stake, there dang well better be some explicit rules in place.

 

As it stands now it IS a quagmire, I give you that. Because so many proposals for PL candidates end up in the same discussions or someone brings up a different twist or interpretation. Part of the reason the Probation Discussions is sitting at over 1000 posts.

 

 

 

 

[Snake Eyes]

tried to stay away from the discussion earlier...we definitely did not need another cook in the kitchen so to speak. I have a couple of thoughts on the direction the discussion is headed, now that things have cooled down a bit.

 

First, I think there should be some sort of mechanism to determine if the majority of buyers and sellers are in favor of the proposed rule modifications before we ask for them to be implemented and stickied...perhaps a vote over the course of a week with simple majority deciding on ratifying the proposal or tabling it for further discussion.

 

Secondly, I have some concerns about the proposed rule set...in order to avoid what I would see as some potential serious complications, it probably needs to be made clear that these new rules only apply to transactions first implemented after they are accepted.

 

Finally, I have a pretty significant problem with this proposal...

4) Removal From The PL

a) If the accuser requests the accused be removed form the PL, they will be removed.

b) If the accused makes full restitution, they will be removed from the PL. This is not subject to the wishes of the accuser

 

For sake of argument here is where I see it breaking down. Joe Bob on my X-Men 94. He fails to pay...following the above rules I have him placed on the probation list after multiple attempts to contact, discussion in the PL thread etc., etc.

 

Example 1: I need the cash for the book, so I then sell it to someone else or auction it off. Restitution in my mind, at that point, may not be possible. What if I sell the book for more, he simply apologizes and gets removed since I have cash in pocket?

 

Example 1b: I again sell the book. This time it goes for $95 when I agreed to $100 with Joe Bob. He simply sends me $5 and gets off the list? :shrug: Again, this would be an unacceptable resolution in my mind. I would not feel that this is sufficient for a lesson to be learned and would wish for future boardies to continue to be warned of this individual.

 

Example 2: I retain the book, but have no further desire to sell it to or communicate with this individual. Some transactions get quite ugly, and after Joe Bob defaults, I should not be forced back into a transaction with what I consider a high risk for further shenanigans

 

Example 3: Who gets to decide what restitution is. What if I purchased another book intending to use the proceeds from the PL sale to pay for the item? Now I no longer have the money I anticipated. If I back out, how can I be recompensed for the damaged relationship. Or what if I use my credit card, can I then include the interest I accrue? What about my time, effort, and emotional investment in dealing with the PL situation? Do I get to decide on appropriate recompense for that

 

 

 

 

I guess to be blunt, I am not a fan of others deciding for me when a personal transaction is resolved or not. There is opportunity for them to voice concern prior to inclusion of the offending party on the PL. I do, however, see the concern of the complaining party no longer being an active boardie and someone on the PL wanting another shot. In a limited circumstance like that I would be in favor of the rule above. However, I strongly believe that it should remain solely the right of the person placing the offending party on the list to remove said person (again if they remain an active boardie).

[PovertyRow]

Hey, SnakeEyes. At this stage the more cooks the better! Those are all good, valid points you bring up. It is why I posted a first draft. I knew that particular area you brought up (restitution) would be noticed. How else to get input for it. .

 

I also agree we need a consensus. I have no desire to create the whole thing and push it as real. Nor should I or any one person.

 

A good part of what is there is just a consolidation of the previsouly agreed upon rules with a few twists and modifications to address the too frequent "but what about this" that get brought up.

 

All of this has never been just plunked down in one place. Funny thing is it looks complex, but if a finalized list were put in one thread and all of the other posts debating what is and is not the PL process is put in another, that final formal list would be miniscule in comparison.

[Bosco685]

I really like where the clear rules are going here. Must be the Six Sigma Black Belt coming out again.

 

[Speedy-D]

tried to stay away from the discussion earlier...we definitely did not need another cook in the kitchen so to speak. I have a couple of thoughts on the direction the discussion is headed, now that things have cooled down a bit.

 

First, I think there should be some sort of mechanism to determine if the majority of buyers and sellers are in favor of the proposed rule modifications before we ask for them to be implemented and stickied...perhaps a vote over the course of a week with simple majority deciding on ratifying the proposal or tabling it for further discussion.

 

Secondly, I have some concerns about the proposed rule set...in order to avoid what I would see as some potential serious complications, it probably needs to be made clear that these new rules only apply to transactions first implemented after they are accepted.

 

Finally, I have a pretty significant problem with this proposal...

4) Removal From The PL

a) If the accuser requests the accused be removed form the PL, they will be removed.

b) If the accused makes full restitution, they will be removed from the PL. This is not subject to the wishes of the accuser

 

For sake of argument here is where I see it breaking down. Joe Bob on my X-Men 94. He fails to pay...following the above rules I have him placed on the probation list after multiple attempts to contact, discussion in the PL thread etc., etc.

 

Example 1: I need the cash for the book, so I then sell it to someone else or auction it off. Restitution in my mind, at that point, may not be possible. What if I sell the book for more, he simply apologizes and gets removed since I have cash in pocket?

I don't get this one. You sold the comic to someone else, why would that be considered restitution from Joe Bob? It'd still be up to the two of you to work out your own definition of restitution.

 

Example 1b: I again sell the book. This time it goes for $95 when I agreed to $100 with Joe Bob. He simply sends me $5 and gets off the list? :shrug: Again, this would be an unacceptable resolution in my mind. I would not feel that this is sufficient for a lesson to be learned and would wish for future boardies to continue to be warned of this individual.

I don't get this one either. Again, you sold the comic to someone else, that has nothing to do with a resolution between you and Joe Bob, right? As before, it'd still be up to the two of you to work out your own definition of restitution.

 

Example 2: I retain the book, but have no further desire to sell it to or communicate with this individual. Some transactions get quite ugly, and after Joe Bob defaults, I should not be forced back into a transaction with what I consider a high risk for further shenanigans

Yep, I can see that happening (see below)....

 

Example 3: Who gets to decide what restitution is. What if I purchased another book intending to use the proceeds from the PL sale to pay for the item? Now I no longer have the money I anticipated. If I back out, how can I be recompensed for the damaged relationship. Or what if I use my credit card, can I then include the interest I accrue? What about my time, effort, and emotional investment in dealing with the PL situation? Do I get to decide on appropriate recompense for that

You and Joe Bob have to agree on what "restitution" is, with the emphasis on you.

 

I guess to be blunt, I am not a fan of others deciding for me when a personal transaction is resolved or not. There is opportunity for them to voice concern prior to inclusion of the offending party on the PL. I do, however, see the concern of the complaining party no longer being an active boardie and someone on the PL wanting another shot. In a limited circumstance like that I would be in favor of the rule above. However, I strongly believe that it should remain solely the right of the person placing the offending party on the list to remove said person (again if they remain an active boardie).

So, about restitution. I'd say that usually, it'll come down to paying for the comics one agrees to buy, or shipping the comics one agrees to sell. In the cases where that's not possible, it gets a little tough. If other comics, or another form of payment is possible, that sounds great to me. If the offending buyer can find another buyer for the seller, that sounds pretty good too.

 

But in those cases where restitution just can't be made, there's gotta be some way to get off the list. If I slack off for whatever reason, and fail to pay someone for some comics, then I find myself on the list. Maybe the seller is really freakin' pizzed, and has no intention of letting me off the hook. Or just doesn't want to deal with me any more. I shouldn't be stuck on the list forever, right? I mean, I've been here for years, I've paid everyone within minutes except for this one time (at band camp), I should get another chance, no? So how about a probationary period, length to be determined (three months?). If I'm a good little boy or girl for that time, I get a pass, even if the bitter seller still hates my guts. In those cases where a pass seems inappropriate, I'd suggest that we might be talking about an HOS candidate.

[chunkybutt]

First of all, didn't chunkybutt (shudder) pay the 50 bucks? That should get him off the list, right? And second, do you see a problem with adding a 48 hour grace period for the issue to be discussed? Everyone always agrees that it's best when these things are worked out, right?

 

I am glad to read this but I am confused because we already HAVE agreed on both a PM and a "reasonable" waiting period for reply to a PM. This is very old news but some folks are acting like it is all a new concept.

 

From the original accusation, the deal went off in February and it was presented to all that multiple attempts were made for contact, therefore the reasonable waiting period had expired long ago. I agree, this is not a new concept.

 

And to recall the original post...

 

Could we add Chunkybutt to the list. I have been holding a stack of books for him since february. I have made contact with him recently, sent a total and he has not responded. I am tired of chasing the guy for the money. I will notify him of this post and allow him to chime in as per the rules. The guy is really nice, I do like him. But leaving me with little to no responses for so long brings me to this.

 

If he completes the sale, I will return and ask him to be removed.

 

I don't believe this last part has been resolved, yet, therefore no removal.

 

well I did complete the transaction, however Resurrection said in his PM to me that he would like to remove me from probation list if I stop slinging Mud. So I guess it is a case of, "You better be quiet and stop proving me wrong or I will make your life miserable" type of situation.

 

secondly I only fell under the criteria of the list (at the time you put me on it) because you believed him and did not hear my side.

 

granted I did owe him money for something I forgot I did.

But maybe I should have put him on the list for not totalling me up in a timely manner like I asked him to

 

just sayin