PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[InvstmntComcSuply]

My point is that shipping costs are the costs to move an item from point A to point B. If shipping costs are agreed upon with no mention of insurance, then insurance is on the seller.

 

Insurance is always at the sellers risk/repsonsibility unless specifically agreed upon otherwise. A deal can not be struck, then followed up with a "Oh and insurance adds another $10 to your bill".

[H0RR0RSH0W]

 

Oh Man that was intense...huff huff huff

[Shark]

 

 

Buyers going to blow a deal over shipping?

 

 

 

Not really so funny Oak. There is the matter of $500 liability here.

 

Pardon my saying so but I have noticed before that you seem to be quite un-moving and not terribly understanding of the difficulties involved when it comes to international shipping.It is exactly the point that can break a deal.

 

 

 

No it's not because I'm not understanding of the difficulties. I would however have honored a deal regardless of cost of shipping,because 1) I know shipping is expensive for international shipping 2) I have morals and ethics and would complete my purchase.So breaking a deal would not have happened with me regardless if shipping was 25 dollars or 75 dollars,because I made a deal and my word is my bond.

 

[InvstmntComcSuply]

I think the buyer was under the impression that he'd be on the hook for no more than $10 for shipping costs with the book being insured. When presented with a much grater cost, he made it clear that he was out. There was never truly a "meeting of the minds" and a completed deal.

 

The buyer was given an estimate and agreed to take it.

Estimate was accurate.

The contract is good.

 

[Shark]

I also wanted to mention - this was a response to a WTB thread. NOT an in a sales thread.

 

If it was a response to a sales thread, I'd be more inclined to say this could be a valid PL nomination. But it's a PM response to a WTB thread. The guy wasted your time and that sucks - but I don't see it as a completed deal and not PL worthy. Again, just my

 

It really doesn't matter where and how the deal was done. A deal is a deal - period. We can argue about symantics all day long, but deals get done in the sales thread itself, in PMs and on eBay. People have been added to the PL or HOS in all 3 situations listed above. As soon as the buyer says "OK, I'll take them" then that constitutes a sale and both buyer and seller need to fulfill their obligation to complete the deal.

[H0RR0RSH0W]

I also wanted to mention - this was a response to a WTB thread. NOT an in a sales thread.

 

If it was a response to a sales thread, I'd be more inclined to say this could be a valid PL nomination. But it's a PM response to a WTB thread. The guy wasted your time and that sucks - but I don't see it as a completed deal and not PL worthy. Again, just my

 

It really doesn't matter where and how the deal was done. A deal is a deal - period. We can argue about symantics all day long, but deals get done in the sales thread itself, in PMs and on eBay. People have been added to the PL or HOS in all 3 situations listed above. As soon as the buyer says "OK, I'll take them" then that constitutes a sale and both buyer and seller need to fulfill their obligation to complete the deal.

 

I am afraid it is a valid point simply because there is no list of rules posted for a WTB thread in the way there are in a selling thread.

 

Customs are customs and posted rules are posted rules.

 

Compromise is a two way street.

[HarveySwick]

I replied I would do $450 but wouldn't pay postage to the UK as it could be $50-$60. I'd pay the 1st $20 and he would have to pay the rest.

He replied that's OK and he would take them and sent his address.

I replied back that after packing the books and checking on usps.com that shipping was $63 for Priority Express International insured for $400; so his total would be $493

He replied back that he wasn't sure how it came to $63 since another boardie had just sent him a slab and several raw books for $25.

I sent him package dimensions and weight and said to check usps.com and LMK if I made a mistake and that I'd check again when I got home.

I checked again and sent him the 3 quotes from usps: Priority Express Int w/insurance for $63; Priority Int w/certificate of mailing for $53; and 1st class w/certificate of mailing for $31. I said I can't be responsible for the latter 2 as they can only be insured for up to $70. It was his choice on shipping.

 

He then replied that he would pass. No other explaination.

 

I'd have to see the PMs. What if the seller admitted he doesn't have much experience in shipping books to the UK but was concerned it COULD be $50 - $60, but he'd cover the first $20 and the would-be buyer has experience that shipping is $25 so he figured he'd be on the hook for $5.

 

I need to see what was specifically as far as shipping, but it's clear the buyer was not really expecting a $50 - $60. (one tiny piece: shipping was $63 - higher than seller's own estimate). Maybe the discussion regarding insurance and with the additional $3, the buyer felt that the seller was nickel and dimming him and didn't want to deal with it anymore.

 

Bottom line: there is no clear "your total WILL be $450 + $55 shipping" and an

 

At the very first point the buyer was given the total cost, he passed. I don't see it as a done deal. Again, just my opinion for whatever that is worth. Everyone can feel free to add Xela to their list and he probably won't get many response to his WTB threads, but I don't see it as worthy of aaddition to the PL.

[The-Collector]

I also wanted to mention - this was a response to a WTB thread. NOT an in a sales thread.

 

If it was a response to a sales thread, I'd be more inclined to say this could be a valid PL nomination. But it's a PM response to a WTB thread. The guy wasted your time and that sucks - but I don't see it as a completed deal and not PL worthy. Again, just my

 

I do not think that is relevant. Whether the deal was instigated by sales thread or by a WTB does not change whether an agreement was reached.

[The-Collector]

I replied I would do $450 but wouldn't pay postage to the UK as it could be $50-$60. I'd pay the 1st $20 and he would have to pay the rest.

He replied that's OK and he would take them and sent his address.

I replied back that after packing the books and checking on usps.com that shipping was $63 for Priority Express International insured for $400; so his total would be $493

He replied back that he wasn't sure how it came to $63 since another boardie had just sent him a slab and several raw books for $25.

I sent him package dimensions and weight and said to check usps.com and LMK if I made a mistake and that I'd check again when I got home.

I checked again and sent him the 3 quotes from usps: Priority Express Int w/insurance for $63; Priority Int w/certificate of mailing for $53; and 1st class w/certificate of mailing for $31. I said I can't be responsible for the latter 2 as they can only be insured for up to $70. It was his choice on shipping.

 

He then replied that he would pass. No other explaination.

 

I'd have to see the PMs. What if the seller admitted he doesn't have much experience in shipping books to the UK but was concerned it COULD be $50 - $60, but he'd cover the first $20 and the would-be buyer has experience that shipping is $25 so he figured he'd be on the hook for $5.

 

I need to see what was specifically as far as shipping, but it's clear the buyer was not really expecting a $50 - $60. (one tiny piece: shipping was $63 - higher than seller's own estimate). Maybe the discussion regarding insurance and with the additional $3, the buyer felt that the seller was nickel and dimming him and didn't want to deal with it anymore.

 

Bottom line: there is no clear "your total WILL be $450 + $55 shipping" and an

 

At the very first point the buyer was given the total cost, he passed. I don't see it as a done deal. Again, just my opinion for whatever that is worth. Everyone can feel free to add Xela to their list and he probably won't get many response to his WTB threads, but I don't see it as worthy of aaddition to the PL.

 

I think this is a much more persuasive argument. I am inclined to think that no deal has been reached.

[HarveySwick]

I also wanted to mention - this was a response to a WTB thread. NOT an in a sales thread.

 

If it was a response to a sales thread, I'd be more inclined to say this could be a valid PL nomination. But it's a PM response to a WTB thread. The guy wasted your time and that sucks - but I don't see it as a completed deal and not PL worthy. Again, just my

 

I do not think that is relevant. Whether the deal was instigated by sales thread or by a WTB does not change whether an agreement was reached.

 

My only reasoning for the difference in a sales thread vs a WTB thread is the "damage" to a seller. If a seller had a sales thread with rules spelled out and clear shipping policies, the onus is on the buyer to ask questions BEFORE throwing out an because the seller would obviously mark his sales thread that the book was sold and could miss out on a sale of the book to another with the time wasted.

 

Because the book wasn't actively for sale in a thread, what damages does a seller have when a would be buyer says "nah, I'll pass" when given actual shipping costs that weren't clear from the start?

 

That's my reasoning for a WTB thread vs. a sales thread.

[Bio-Rupp]

I also wanted to mention - this was a response to a WTB thread. NOT an in a sales thread.

 

If it was a response to a sales thread, I'd be more inclined to say this could be a valid PL nomination. But it's a PM response to a WTB thread. The guy wasted your time and that sucks - but I don't see it as a completed deal and not PL worthy. Again, just my

 

I do not think that is relevant. Whether the deal was instigated by sales thread or by a WTB does not change whether an agreement was reached.

 

My only reasoning for the difference in a sales thread vs a WTB thread is the "damage" to a seller. If a seller had a sales thread with rules spelled out and clear shipping policies, the onus is on the buyer to ask questions BEFORE throwing out an because the seller would obviously mark his sales thread that the book was sold and could miss out on a sale of the book to another with the time wasted.

 

Because the book wasn't actively for sale in a thread, what damages does a seller have when a would be buyer says "nah, I'll pass" when given actual shipping costs that weren't clear from the start?

 

That's my reasoning for a WTB thread vs. a sales thread.

 

 

Wouldn't a automatically turn a WTB thread into a "sales" thread... since a "sale" was made ?

 

 

xxx ooo

 

Rupp

[Dano]

Ugh. Make a deal, follow through. That's your reputation. Another one on the personal list.

 

Dan

[thehumantorch]

I replied I would do $450 but wouldn't pay postage to the UK as it could be $50-$60. I'd pay the 1st $20 and he would have to pay the rest.

He replied that's OK and he would take them and sent his address.

I replied back that after packing the books and checking on usps.com that shipping was $63 for Priority Express International insured for $400; so his total would be $493

He replied back that he wasn't sure how it came to $63 since another boardie had just sent him a slab and several raw books for $25.

I sent him package dimensions and weight and said to check usps.com and LMK if I made a mistake and that I'd check again when I got home.

I checked again and sent him the 3 quotes from usps: Priority Express Int w/insurance for $63; Priority Int w/certificate of mailing for $53; and 1st class w/certificate of mailing for $31. I said I can't be responsible for the latter 2 as they can only be insured for up to $70. It was his choice on shipping.

 

He then replied that he would pass. No other explaination.

 

I'd have to see the PMs. What if the seller admitted he doesn't have much experience in shipping books to the UK but was concerned it COULD be $50 - $60, but he'd cover the first $20 and the would-be buyer has experience that shipping is $25 so he figured he'd be on the hook for $5.

 

I need to see what was specifically as far as shipping, but it's clear the buyer was not really expecting a $50 - $60. (one tiny piece: shipping was $63 - higher than seller's own estimate). Maybe the discussion regarding insurance and with the additional $3, the buyer felt that the seller was nickel and dimming him and didn't want to deal with it anymore.

 

Bottom line: there is no clear "your total WILL be $450 + $55 shipping" and an

 

At the very first point the buyer was given the total cost, he passed. I don't see it as a done deal. Again, just my opinion for whatever that is worth. Everyone can feel free to add Xela to their list and he probably won't get many response to his WTB threads, but I don't see it as worthy of aaddition to the PL.

 

I think this is a much more persuasive argument. I am inclined to think that no deal has been reached.

 

Seller states that he quoted $50 to $60 shipping and buyer said ok. The buyer has made a commitment and is obligated to complete the transaction unless seller changes the terms. Technically the $63 quote does change the terms and releases the buyer from the contract but it seems silly to have a deal fall apart over $3.

[Xela]

Hi everyone,

 

Firstly I don't think I was obstructing a sales thread of bcc.

 

I said I'd pass on the books because I feel the shipping was extortionate. I've had multiple books (slabbed and raw) sent from the USA and it was only $20. So I don't feel giving him an extra $40 on shipping + giving him way over GPA on the slabbed book is fair..

 

I think bcc is trying to get me on the probation list for the sake of it.

 

Cheers

[HarveySwick]

Did the "seller" respond to the WTB thread with a set of rules and CLEAR shipping costs? Or did he said it COULD be $x- $x with no mention of added insurance costs?

 

When presented with the options and first mention of insurance costs, it was clear that there was a misunderstanding of what the buyer was paying. His first reply is that in his experience with other sellers, the cost was $25 and no mention of him having to pay the insurance cost.

 

He seller never informed the buyer that he'd be responsible for the insurance. Every sales thread is required to have shipping methods and costs laid out. Good sellers list the cost and state up front if insurance is required or will be covered.

 

If the seller had said, shipping WILL BE $40 - $60 and you will need to cover the cost of insurance if you'd want the books to be insured, I'd say he has a case. But he wasn't clear in the actual shipping costs and what was included. When he finally was specific, the buyer said "pass." It's clear that the buyer expected something that the seller wasn't providing so there was no deal reached.

[HarveySwick]

I replied I would do $450 but wouldn't pay postage to the UK as it could be $50-$60. I'd pay the 1st $20 and he would have to pay the rest.

He replied that's OK and he would take them and sent his address.

I replied back that after packing the books and checking on usps.com that shipping was $63 for Priority Express International insured for $400; so his total would be $493

He replied back that he wasn't sure how it came to $63 since another boardie had just sent him a slab and several raw books for $25.

I sent him package dimensions and weight and said to check usps.com and LMK if I made a mistake and that I'd check again when I got home.

I checked again and sent him the 3 quotes from usps: Priority Express Int w/insurance for $63; Priority Int w/certificate of mailing for $53; and 1st class w/certificate of mailing for $31. I said I can't be responsible for the latter 2 as they can only be insured for up to $70. It was his choice on shipping.

 

He then replied that he would pass. No other explaination.

 

I'd have to see the PMs. What if the seller admitted he doesn't have much experience in shipping books to the UK but was concerned it COULD be $50 - $60, but he'd cover the first $20 and the would-be buyer has experience that shipping is $25 so he figured he'd be on the hook for $5.

 

I need to see what was specifically as far as shipping, but it's clear the buyer was not really expecting a $50 - $60. (one tiny piece: shipping was $63 - higher than seller's own estimate). Maybe the discussion regarding insurance and with the additional $3, the buyer felt that the seller was nickel and dimming him and didn't want to deal with it anymore.

 

Bottom line: there is no clear "your total WILL be $450 + $55 shipping" and an

 

At the very first point the buyer was given the total cost, he passed. I don't see it as a done deal. Again, just my opinion for whatever that is worth. Everyone can feel free to add Xela to their list and he probably won't get many response to his WTB threads, but I don't see it as worthy of aaddition to the PL.

 

I think this is a much more persuasive argument. I am inclined to think that no deal has been reached.

 

Seller states that he quoted $50 to $60 shipping and buyer said ok. The buyer has made a commitment and is obligated to complete the transaction unless seller changes the terms. Technically the $63 quote does change the terms and releases the buyer from the contract but it seems silly to have a deal fall apart over $3.

 

COULD be and WILL be are two different statements, no? The buyer obviously has previous experiences with shipping being $25 and presumably incl. insurance costs. The seller never initially quoted him shipping costs. Just a "could be" and that he'd cover the first $20. As soon as he posted definitive shipping costs, the buyer was obviously surprised by the cost and said "pass". There is obvious ambiguity in the actual shipping cost.

[Number 6]

Hi everyone,

 

Firstly I don't think I was obstructing a sales thread of bcc.

 

I said I'd pass on the books because I feel the shipping was extortionate. I've had multiple books (slabbed and raw) sent from the USA and it was only $20. So I don't feel giving him an extra $40 on shipping + giving him way over GPA on the slabbed book is fair..

 

I think bcc is trying to get me on the probation list for the sake of it.

 

Cheers

 

Then you need to clearly state what your expectations are regarding shipping cost in your WTB thread.

 

And if you're absolutely convinced that it costs no more than $20 to ship from the U.S. to the U.K. then you shouldn't agree to a sale where a seller is estimating a higher rate.

 

And no, you're not being nominated for "payback".

[Bio-Rupp]

Went to usps.com and a package less than 20 lbs sent via Flat Rate Box to Great Britain and Northern Ireland costs this...

 

http://ircalc.usps.com/MailServices.aspx?country=10143&m=13&dpb=0&mdt=2015/05/18%2008:00&mt=12&dok=XX&dvi=450.00

 

... which is close to what the seller quoted. I didn't type in anything for insurance etc other than value of package.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2015 by Bio-Rupp

[Number 6]

I replied I would do $450 but wouldn't pay postage to the UK as it could be $50-$60. I'd pay the 1st $20 and he would have to pay the rest.

He replied that's OK and he would take them and sent his address.

I replied back that after packing the books and checking on usps.com that shipping was $63 for Priority Express International insured for $400; so his total would be $493

He replied back that he wasn't sure how it came to $63 since another boardie had just sent him a slab and several raw books for $25.

I sent him package dimensions and weight and said to check usps.com and LMK if I made a mistake and that I'd check again when I got home.

I checked again and sent him the 3 quotes from usps: Priority Express Int w/insurance for $63; Priority Int w/certificate of mailing for $53; and 1st class w/certificate of mailing for $31. I said I can't be responsible for the latter 2 as they can only be insured for up to $70. It was his choice on shipping.

 

He then replied that he would pass. No other explaination.

 

I'd have to see the PMs. What if the seller admitted he doesn't have much experience in shipping books to the UK but was concerned it COULD be $50 - $60, but he'd cover the first $20 and the would-be buyer has experience that shipping is $25 so he figured he'd be on the hook for $5.

 

I need to see what was specifically as far as shipping, but it's clear the buyer was not really expecting a $50 - $60. (one tiny piece: shipping was $63 - higher than seller's own estimate). Maybe the discussion regarding insurance and with the additional $3, the buyer felt that the seller was nickel and dimming him and didn't want to deal with it anymore.

 

Bottom line: there is no clear "your total WILL be $450 + $55 shipping" and an

 

At the very first point the buyer was given the total cost, he passed. I don't see it as a done deal. Again, just my opinion for whatever that is worth. Everyone can feel free to add Xela to their list and he probably won't get many response to his WTB threads, but I don't see it as worthy of aaddition to the PL.

 

I think this is a much more persuasive argument. I am inclined to think that no deal has been reached.

 

Seller states that he quoted $50 to $60 shipping and buyer said ok. The buyer has made a commitment and is obligated to complete the transaction unless seller changes the terms. Technically the $63 quote does change the terms and releases the buyer from the contract but it seems silly to have a deal fall apart over $3.

 

COULD be and WILL be are two different statements, no? The buyer obviously has previous experiences with shipping being $25 and presumably incl. insurance costs. The seller never initially quoted him shipping costs. Just a "could be" and that he'd cover the first $20. As soon as he posted definitive shipping costs, the buyer was obviously surprised by the cost and said "pass". There is obvious ambiguity in the actual shipping cost.

 

Look at the line 3 lines above what you have in red.

 

If the buyer is supremely confident that it's going to cost no more than $25, doesn't he have an obligation to clearly state that before he says he'll take it? Especially when the estimate is so much more and is clearly going to be a deal breaker for him?

[The-Collector]

I also wanted to mention - this was a response to a WTB thread. NOT an in a sales thread.

 

If it was a response to a sales thread, I'd be more inclined to say this could be a valid PL nomination. But it's a PM response to a WTB thread. The guy wasted your time and that sucks - but I don't see it as a completed deal and not PL worthy. Again, just my

 

I do not think that is relevant. Whether the deal was instigated by sales thread or by a WTB does not change whether an agreement was reached.

 

My only reasoning for the difference in a sales thread vs a WTB thread is the "damage" to a seller. If a seller had a sales thread with rules spelled out and clear shipping policies, the onus is on the buyer to ask questions BEFORE throwing out an because the seller would obviously mark his sales thread that the book was sold and could miss out on a sale of the book to another with the time wasted.

 

Because the book wasn't actively for sale in a thread, what damages does a seller have when a would be buyer says "nah, I'll pass" when given actual shipping costs that weren't clear from the start?

 

That's my reasoning for a WTB thread vs. a sales thread.

 

 

Wouldn't a automatically turn a WTB thread into a "sales" thread... since a "sale" was made ?

 

 

xxx ooo

 

Rupp

 

That is essentially my point. The reason I do not think it is relevant is because if a deal is reached then the problem is that an agreement is being breached regardless of whether the seller is inconvenienced or not.

 

But I do see your point Harvey, there is something qualitatively worse about doing it in a sales thread. But overall I think in both situations the buyer is in the wrong and is in breach of an agreement.