PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[CAHokie]

Uh oh, you said lifetime guarantees!

[crassus]

A board exclusive... Lifetime Color Touch Guarantees!

 

 

Was color touch at the center of this particular kerfuffle?

 

I thought there was a list of issues with that book.

 

True, I think there was something about the staple as well, but not to beat a dead donkey but how many years does a buyer have to notice or discover these issues? I truly have yet to see an answer and that is why I keep asking. Is it truly case by case no matter how many years pass?

 

I think its hard to propose a cut off that would universally cover all cases. In this case the seller had guaranteed no resto, and if you make that guarantee don't be so surprised if someone calls you on it.

 

There is one easy way around this and that is to adopt the following fail safe blanket rule to post at the start of your sales thread:

 

"Ok look these are my books, they are what they appear to be, I'm not a professional grader so don't cry about it.."

 

Post that first and you will never need to worry about returns.

[wombat]

Every seller has their own rules for their individual sales thread. You're advocating for a hardline rule for every seller.

 

What if one seller says "I don't know much about color touch or other restoration techniques. If you would like to return the book, please inspect it yourself and I'll accept returns within 30 days."

 

Or if an experienced seller says "You buy from me, you can buy with the confidence that the book will be thoroughly reviewed for restoration and I'll gladly accept returns if any are discovered at a later date any time."

 

Who are we to decide the hardline statute of limitations for individual sellers' threads? That's why everyone adamantly argues against a "Standard Rules." People want freedom to set their own rules.

 

The guy didn't state a deadline for returns. He DID however expressly state - no restoration.

 

Quite simply, he sold a book that he didn't have and now is unable to complete the sale within 30 days.

 

Maybe I'm not understanding, but a seller can certainly give a return whenever they want. If they want to give one ten years later it doesn't matter what rules are in place.

[HarveySwick]

Every seller has their own rules for their individual sales thread. You're advocating for a hardline rule for every seller.

 

why not? you can comply with those rules or don't sell here. should we offer lifetime guarantee's next? I think a short period after the book is recieved for a return is reasonable.

 

Personally, I've advocated for a "Standard Rules" template that CAN be used when sellers don't clearly state what their rules are and post the "Standard Rules Apply", but it has been shot down every time it's discussed.

[N/A]

A board exclusive... Lifetime Color Touch Guarantees!

 

 

Was color touch at the center of this particular kerfuffle?

 

I thought there was a list of issues with that book.

 

True, I think there was something about the staple as well, but not to beat a dead donkey but how many years does a buyer have to notice or discover these issues? I truly have yet to see an answer and that is why I keep asking. Is it truly case by case no matter how many years pass?

 

 

 

I think everyone would have been in agreement that it's Way WAY WAYYYYY too long if the buyer asked for a full refund, but when he came to the table with a very reasonable request for grading and shipping costs. It was hard to deny that the seller should stand behind his claim of "no resto" when the buyer sold the book at a loss and what he's asking for as compensation leaves him still at a loss on the book.

 

Honestly, the request for less than 20% of the sales price as compensation for a book with MAJOR restoration issues, was so reasonable that it's hard to simply slam the door because it was discovered a year later. The buyer's taken a ton of the blame and financial burden on himself as he should have.

 

Given how equitable the request is and how blanket the original no resto claim was it's hard to answer an equitable request with inequity.

 

This is the same as not listening to a PL nomination for anything less than $x for me. The amount, however reasonable, is not the point. At some point the transaction is complete.

 

Rupp's request is VERY reasonable but it is way overdue.

[N/A]

Every seller has their own rules for their individual sales thread. You're advocating for a hardline rule for every seller.

 

What if one seller says "I don't know much about color touch or other restoration techniques. If you would like to return the book, please inspect it yourself and I'll accept returns within 30 days."

 

Or if an experienced seller says "You buy from me, you can buy with the confidence that the book will be thoroughly reviewed for restoration and I'll gladly accept returns if any are discovered at a later date any time."

 

Who are we to decide the hardline statute of limitations for individual sellers' threads? That's why everyone adamantly argues against a "Standard Rules." People want freedom to set their own rules.

 

The guy didn't state a deadline for returns. He DID however expressly state - no restoration.

 

Quite simply, he sold a book that he didn't have and now is unable to complete the sale within 30 days.

 

Maybe I'm not understanding, but a seller can certainly give a return whenever they want. If they want to give one ten years later it doesn't matter what rules are in place.

 

Exactly.

[HarveySwick]

Every seller has their own rules for their individual sales thread. You're advocating for a hardline rule for every seller.

 

What if one seller says "I don't know much about color touch or other restoration techniques. If you would like to return the book, please inspect it yourself and I'll accept returns within 30 days."

 

Or if an experienced seller says "You buy from me, you can buy with the confidence that the book will be thoroughly reviewed for restoration and I'll gladly accept returns if any are discovered at a later date any time."

 

Who are we to decide the hardline statute of limitations for individual sellers' threads? That's why everyone adamantly argues against a "Standard Rules." People want freedom to set their own rules.

 

The guy didn't state a deadline for returns. He DID however expressly state - no restoration.

 

Quite simply, he sold a book that he didn't have and now is unable to complete the sale within 30 days.

 

Maybe I'm not understanding, but a seller can certainly give a return whenever they want. If they want to give one ten years later it doesn't matter what rules are in place.

 

I was using the two examples to illustrate how someone might want a short return period and someone else might have a longer return period in response to the idea that we need a hardline "statute of limitations".

[Shark]

Benjamin Grimm charity thread

 

Looks like bcphillips119 and jump_ace also made purchases. I wonder if anyone got their books?

 

I can tell you in the case of both Brandon (bcphillips119) and Jerome (jump_ace) they DID receive their books from me that they bought in the charity thread. But I do know that Brandon never received his Batman: Hush book. That's 1.

 

I bought the Amazing Spider-Man #1 CGC 9.8 Hastings Variant that hasn't been received. That's 2.

 

Sharon bought 2 Spawn TPBs and an ASM TPB that still aren't received. That's 3.

 

Sean purchased a Buffy #9 CGC 9.8 SS slab from the thread. No receipt of the book. That's 4.

 

Benjamin Grimm's posting history does show gaps as long as 3-4 weeks between posts so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt right now. Maybe Bill passed away and Benjamin is busy dealing with that. I don't know. But with 4 people missing purchased books and not receiving any communication at all, this has the possibility of having scam written all over it. I hope I'm wrong and that we'll hear from "Benjamin" soon.

 

If anyone on these boards knows "Benjamin Grimm" personally, please contact him and let him know he has some disgruntled buyers on his hands right now.

[N/A]

A board exclusive... Lifetime Color Touch Guarantees!

 

 

Was color touch at the center of this particular kerfuffle?

 

I thought there was a list of issues with that book.

 

True, I think there was something about the staple as well, but not to beat a dead donkey but how many years does a buyer have to notice or discover these issues? I truly have yet to see an answer and that is why I keep asking. Is it truly case by case no matter how many years pass?

 

I think its hard to propose a cut off that would universally cover all cases. In this case the seller had guaranteed no resto, and if you make that guarantee don't be so surprised if someone calls you on it.

 

There is one easy way around this and that is to adopt the following fail safe blanket rule to post at the start of your sales thread:

 

"Ok look these are my books, they are what they appear to be, I'm not a professional grader so don't cry about it.."

 

Post that first and you will never need to worry about returns.

 

"books are as-is. Please check scans."

 

I think a universal cutoff is easy. If a book were not getting graded then how long is reasonable? 30 days? 60?

 

Then just add CGC's longest TAT.

[HarveySwick]

 

Didn't notice the books they picked up had been listed by you.

[N/A]

Every seller has their own rules for their individual sales thread. You're advocating for a hardline rule for every seller.

 

What if one seller says "I don't know much about color touch or other restoration techniques. If you would like to return the book, please inspect it yourself and I'll accept returns within 30 days."

 

Or if an experienced seller says "You buy from me, you can buy with the confidence that the book will be thoroughly reviewed for restoration and I'll gladly accept returns if any are discovered at a later date any time."

 

Who are we to decide the hardline statute of limitations for individual sellers' threads? That's why everyone adamantly argues against a "Standard Rules." People want freedom to set their own rules.

 

The guy didn't state a deadline for returns. He DID however expressly state - no restoration.

 

Quite simply, he sold a book that he didn't have and now is unable to complete the sale within 30 days.

 

Maybe I'm not understanding, but a seller can certainly give a return whenever they want. If they want to give one ten years later it doesn't matter what rules are in place.

 

I was using the two examples to illustrate how someone might want a short return period and someone else might have a longer return period in response to the idea that we need a hardline "statute of limitations".

 

The statute is simply for PL additions/nominations. It would not affect your examples.

[HarveySwick]

So it would only be for those that choose NOT to list a period for returns?

[wombat]

So it would only be for those that choose NOT to list a period for returns?

 

Wouldn't it just simply be saying PL nominations have to take place within xx period of time?

[comix4fun]

A board exclusive... Lifetime Color Touch Guarantees!

 

 

Was color touch at the center of this particular kerfuffle?

 

I thought there was a list of issues with that book.

 

True, I think there was something about the staple as well, but not to beat a dead donkey but how many years does a buyer have to notice or discover these issues? I truly have yet to see an answer and that is why I keep asking. Is it truly case by case no matter how many years pass?

 

 

 

I think everyone would have been in agreement that it's Way WAY WAYYYYY too long if the buyer asked for a full refund, but when he came to the table with a very reasonable request for grading and shipping costs. It was hard to deny that the seller should stand behind his claim of "no resto" when the buyer sold the book at a loss and what he's asking for as compensation leaves him still at a loss on the book.

 

Honestly, the request for less than 20% of the sales price as compensation for a book with MAJOR restoration issues, was so reasonable that it's hard to simply slam the door because it was discovered a year later. The buyer's taken a ton of the blame and financial burden on himself as he should have.

 

Given how equitable the request is and how blanket the original no resto claim was it's hard to answer an equitable request with inequity.

 

This is the same as not listening to a PL nomination for anything less than $x for me. The amount, however reasonable, is not the point. At some point the transaction is complete.

 

Rupp's request is VERY reasonable but it is way overdue.

 

 

Maybe it's like a defective car battery. 100% refund in the first 180 days, dropping to 20% by year 4.

 

I see what you mean, but It's hard for me to not hold someone to their word when they are so explicit. In many areas of business the standard time period to stand behind a product is reset or expanded by statements expanding the warranty or claim of condition.

 

I guess in the balance of things, the seller's wrong in using such clear terms to get someone to seal a purchase. The buyer is wrong for waiting so long to discover the false statement about the book. If we assign no blame to the seller we are, in the balance, shifting all that blame to the buyer.

 

Like I said it's tough to make such an inequitable decision. This is the one time where there's no right answer that does the right thing for everyone.

[crassus]

A board exclusive... Lifetime Color Touch Guarantees!

 

 

Was color touch at the center of this particular kerfuffle?

 

I thought there was a list of issues with that book.

 

True, I think there was something about the staple as well, but not to beat a dead donkey but how many years does a buyer have to notice or discover these issues? I truly have yet to see an answer and that is why I keep asking. Is it truly case by case no matter how many years pass?

 

I think its hard to propose a cut off that would universally cover all cases. In this case the seller had guaranteed no resto, and if you make that guarantee don't be so surprised if someone calls you on it.

 

There is one easy way around this and that is to adopt the following fail safe blanket rule to post at the start of your sales thread:

 

"Ok look these are my books, they are what they appear to be, I'm not a professional grader so don't cry about it.."

 

Post that first and you will never need to worry about returns.

 

"books are as-is. Please check scans."

 

I think a universal cutoff is easy. If a book were not getting graded then how long is reasonable? 30 days? 60?

 

Then just add CGC's longest TAT.

 

I am fine with the idea of a cut off, and yes as with any limitation it can be laid down based on a consensus of what is reasonable, but it will not remove disputes.

 

What it could usefully do is define the burden of proof. If you are coming here to make a claim beyond the time limit than the burden is on you to demonstrate why you are an exception, etc. Practically that is reasonable.

 

The reason it will not remove disputes entirely is the case in point. If a seller gives blanket guarantees in their sales thread, a disgruntled buyer will always dismiss any time limits, and that brings it back to the case by case details of the seller's rules.

[N/A]

So it would only be for those that choose NOT to list a period for returns?

 

Wouldn't it just simply be saying PL nominations have to take place within xx period of time?

 

 

Whether a seller lists a return policy or not there would be a discussion on a "case by case" just as there always has been IF the transaction took place within the last X days,weeks,months.

[HarveySwick]

What if the Board decides 90 days, but a seller expressly states in his sales thread rules that returns are not accepted under any circumstances after 30 days? He could still be nominated to the Probation List of a buyer wanted a return at Day 89?

 

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for anything to help sellers rip off buyers, I'm just trying to play this out and hash out possible scenarios.

[N/A]

A board exclusive... Lifetime Color Touch Guarantees!

 

 

Was color touch at the center of this particular kerfuffle?

 

I thought there was a list of issues with that book.

 

True, I think there was something about the staple as well, but not to beat a dead donkey but how many years does a buyer have to notice or discover these issues? I truly have yet to see an answer and that is why I keep asking. Is it truly case by case no matter how many years pass?

 

I think its hard to propose a cut off that would universally cover all cases. In this case the seller had guaranteed no resto, and if you make that guarantee don't be so surprised if someone calls you on it.

 

There is one easy way around this and that is to adopt the following fail safe blanket rule to post at the start of your sales thread:

 

"Ok look these are my books, they are what they appear to be, I'm not a professional grader so don't cry about it.."

 

Post that first and you will never need to worry about returns.

 

"books are as-is. Please check scans."

 

I think a universal cutoff is easy. If a book were not getting graded then how long is reasonable? 30 days? 60?

 

Then just add CGC's longest TAT.

 

I am fine with the idea of a cut off, and yes as with any limitation it can be laid down based on a consensus of what is reasonable, but it will not remove disputes.

 

What it could usefully do is define the burden of proof. If you are coming here to make a claim beyond the time limit than the burden is on you to demonstrate why you are an exception, etc. Practically that is reasonable.

 

The reason it will not remove disputes entirely is the case in point. If a seller gives blanket guarantees in their sales thread, a disgruntled buyer will always dismiss any time limits, and that brings it back to the case by case details of the seller's rules.

 

In which case the buyer would discuss it here, personal lists would be updated, there would be a documented discussion of how the seller responded but there would be no PL addition.

 

I bought a CGC 9.9 a year or so a go from a boardie. It's Chew and part of my personal collection. It arrived cracked. Because it's a 9.9 I chose not to resubmit. At some point I should not be able, via the PL, to force a return or get money to reslab.

[N/A]

What if the Board decides 90 days, but a seller expressly states in his sales thread rules that returns are not accepted under any circumstances after 30 days? He could still be nominated to the Probation List of a buyer wanted a return at Day 89?

 

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for anything to help sellers rip off buyers, I'm just trying to play this out and hash out possible scenarios.

 

No.

 

If the buyer buys under those terms then those are the terms. They may come here and discuss and personally I would point them back at their terms of purchase.

[wombat]

What if the Board decides 90 days, but a seller expressly states in his sales thread rules that returns are not accepted under any circumstances after 30 days? He could still be nominated to the Probation List of a buyer wanted a return at Day 89?

 

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for anything to help sellers rip off buyers, I'm just trying to play this out and hash out possible scenarios.

 

Is that even permissible now? Can I say I take no returns under any circumstances and then send something not as advertised?