PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[thehumantorch]

[font:Book Antiqua]My vote is to remove him for the probation list,

he make a mistake and then do the right thing to the offended costumers.[/font]

 

(thumbs u

 

Seems to me that it's pretty cut and dry. If someone on the probation list repairs the problem they come off the list.

[Pirate]

My reason for wanting the list, was so that the remaining people who have not posted, could be emailed to ask what they want to do (not everyone reads this thread every week).

 

But I had another idea that would require less work... wait 30 days and see if there are no other posts by then, Brent could post again, and he could be removed.

I might not be the only one without power right now...(I'm SURE I'm not) ...and since there didn't seem to be a rush to fix the problem, I think 30 days would be reasonable...especially since Brent says he has no urgent need to list a sales thread..

 

These are just my suggestions, so if someone else has an idea, they should speak up, too.

 

I like puppies, too...and foals and Unicorns and dolphins...but we need to be fair both ways here.

 

 

He should stay on IMO. I was the one who listed him to begin with. I for one turned down his offer to get the books for the shipping cost. I don't do business like that and I call BS on the PQ thing.

 

He came on here earlier to defend himself and basically told us all to F off. He obviously wants to list again or what's the point? He doesn't frequent the boards to do anything but solicit business.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Pirate

[JazzMan]

I don't think this is subject to third party opinions. The rules are clear:

 

4) Removal From The PL

a) If the accuser requests the accused be removed form the PL, the accused will be removed.

 

b) If the accused makes full restitution to the satisfaction of the accuser, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

c) If multiple accusers are involved, and full restitution is satisfactorily made to all accusers, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

I like Brent and will do business with him regardless of the outcome, but the removal from the PL is pretty simple. If Logan510, who was one of the accusers and he is not satisfied with his results, then there is no current recourse - no waiting period, no voting. Very similar to how another on these boards has not let one individual be removed from PL.

 

[Speedy-D]

I don't think this is subject to third party opinions. The rules are clear:

 

4) Removal From The PL

a) If the accuser requests the accused be removed form the PL, the accused will be removed.

 

b) If the accused makes full restitution to the satisfaction of the accuser, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

c) If multiple accusers are involved, and full restitution is satisfactorily made to all accusers, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

I like Brent and will do business with him regardless of the outcome, but the removal from the PL is pretty simple. If Logan510, who was one of the accusers and he is not satisfied with his results, then there is no current recourse - no waiting period, no voting. Very similar to how another on these boards has not let one individual be removed from PL.

IMO, this is a gap in the way it works. If you get on the PL, you should be able to get off the PL. Otherwise what's the difference between the PL and the HoS?

 

EDIT: looking at 2d: "d) If reasonable additional expenses are incurred the accuser may include them as part of the resolution. The validity of "reasonable additional expenses" may be subject to discussion."

 

This assumes that there's a resolution. If someone can just refuse to accept anything, no matter how reasonable, how is it supposed to get resolved?

Edited November 9, 2012 by Speedy-D

[mrwoogieman]

I don't think this is subject to third party opinions. The rules are clear:

 

4) Removal From The PL

a) If the accuser requests the accused be removed form the PL, the accused will be removed.

 

b) If the accused makes full restitution to the satisfaction of the accuser, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

c) If multiple accusers are involved, and full restitution is satisfactorily made to all accusers, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

I like Brent and will do business with him regardless of the outcome, but the removal from the PL is pretty simple. If Logan510, who was one of the accusers and he is not satisfied with his results, then there is no current recourse - no waiting period, no voting. Very similar to how another on these boards has not let one individual be removed from PL.

IMO, this is a gap in the way it works. If you get on the PL, you should be able to get off the PL. Otherwise what's the difference between the PL and the HoS?

 

EDIT: looking at 2d: "d) If reasonable additional expenses are incurred the accuser may include them as part of the resolution. The validity of "reasonable additional expenses" may be subject to discussion."

 

This assumes that there's a resolution. If someone can just refuse to accept anything, no matter how reasonable, how is it supposed to get resolved?

 

Being on the PL isn't an absolute bar to selling, it's only there to give others a head's up regarding past -hattery by the listed member. They could explain in their sales thread that they are unable to get off the list because the complainant refused to agree to removal after reasonable efforts were made by the offending party, and it would be up to the prospective buyers to decide whether to buy or not to buy.

 

Although in practical terms, a sales thread from a PL member would be thread-krapped rather than just ignored.

 

 

 

 

[Speedy-D]

I don't think this is subject to third party opinions. The rules are clear:

 

4) Removal From The PL

a) If the accuser requests the accused be removed form the PL, the accused will be removed.

 

b) If the accused makes full restitution to the satisfaction of the accuser, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

c) If multiple accusers are involved, and full restitution is satisfactorily made to all accusers, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

I like Brent and will do business with him regardless of the outcome, but the removal from the PL is pretty simple. If Logan510, who was one of the accusers and he is not satisfied with his results, then there is no current recourse - no waiting period, no voting. Very similar to how another on these boards has not let one individual be removed from PL.

IMO, this is a gap in the way it works. If you get on the PL, you should be able to get off the PL. Otherwise what's the difference between the PL and the HoS?

 

EDIT: looking at 2d: "d) If reasonable additional expenses are incurred the accuser may include them as part of the resolution. The validity of "reasonable additional expenses" may be subject to discussion."

 

This assumes that there's a resolution. If someone can just refuse to accept anything, no matter how reasonable, how is it supposed to get resolved?

 

Being on the PL isn't an absolute bar to selling, it's only there to give others a head's up regarding past -hattery by the listed member. They could explain in their sales thread that they are unable to get off the list because the complainant refused to agree to removal after reasonable efforts were made by the offending party, and it would be up to the prospective buyers to decide whether to buy or not to buy.

 

Although in practical terms, a sales thread from a PL member would be thread-krapped rather than just ignored.

Yeah, I guess I'm just not feeling the permanence option. If everyone else is good with it, I'll just try extra hard not to get myself on the list.

[Green]

I don't think this is subject to third party opinions. The rules are clear:

 

4) Removal From The PL

a) If the accuser requests the accused be removed form the PL, the accused will be removed.

 

b) If the accused makes full restitution to the satisfaction of the accuser, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

c) If multiple accusers are involved, and full restitution is satisfactorily made to all accusers, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

I like Brent and will do business with him regardless of the outcome, but the removal from the PL is pretty simple. If Logan510, who was one of the accusers and he is not satisfied with his results, then there is no current recourse - no waiting period, no voting. Very similar to how another on these boards has not let one individual be removed from PL.

This is exactly how i feel.

[Green]

I don't think this is subject to third party opinions. The rules are clear:

 

4) Removal From The PL

a) If the accuser requests the accused be removed form the PL, the accused will be removed.

 

b) If the accused makes full restitution to the satisfaction of the accuser, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

c) If multiple accusers are involved, and full restitution is satisfactorily made to all accusers, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

I like Brent and will do business with him regardless of the outcome, but the removal from the PL is pretty simple. If Logan510, who was one of the accusers and he is not satisfied with his results, then there is no current recourse - no waiting period, no voting. Very similar to how another on these boards has not let one individual be removed from PL.

IMO, this is a gap in the way it works. If you get on the PL, you should be able to get off the PL. Otherwise what's the difference between the PL and the HoS?

 

EDIT: looking at 2d: "d) If reasonable additional expenses are incurred the accuser may include them as part of the resolution. The validity of "reasonable additional expenses" may be subject to discussion."

 

This assumes that there's a resolution. If someone can just refuse to accept anything, no matter how reasonable, how is it supposed to get resolved?

 

Being on the PL isn't an absolute bar to selling, it's only there to give others a head's up regarding past -hattery by the listed member. They could explain in their sales thread that they are unable to get off the list because the complainant refused to agree to removal after reasonable efforts were made by the offending party, and it would be up to the prospective buyers to decide whether to buy or not to buy.

 

Although in practical terms, a sales thread from a PL member would be thread-krapped rather than just ignored.

Yeah, I guess I'm just not feeling the permanence option. If everyone else is good with it, I'll just try extra hard not to get myself on the list.

For perspective, there is at least one person on the HOS list for a lesser offense.

[PovertyRow]

I don't think this is subject to third party opinions. The rules are clear:

 

4) Removal From The PL

a) If the accuser requests the accused be removed form the PL, the accused will be removed.

 

b) If the accused makes full restitution to the satisfaction of the accuser, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

c) If multiple accusers are involved, and full restitution is satisfactorily made to all accusers, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

I like Brent and will do business with him regardless of the outcome, but the removal from the PL is pretty simple. If Logan510, who was one of the accusers and he is not satisfied with his results, then there is no current recourse - no waiting period, no voting. Very similar to how another on these boards has not let one individual be removed from PL.

IMO, this is a gap in the way it works. If you get on the PL, you should be able to get off the PL. Otherwise what's the difference between the PL and the HoS?

EDIT: looking at 2d: "d) If reasonable additional expenses are incurred the accuser may include them as part of the resolution. The validity of "reasonable additional expenses" may be subject to discussion."

 

This assumes that there's a resolution. If someone can just refuse to accept anything, no matter how reasonable, how is it supposed to get resolved?

 

I agree it is a huge gap in the way things work. When the PL Rules were being compiled and worked out "my" assumption when phrasing this that people would not try to use this in the way it is being used, to refuse any recourse just to keep someone on the list. It definitely needs revisiting.

 

NO member should be able to wield that kind of power over the PL list.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Povertyrow

[Pirate]

There are two people wielding that power for this seller or was my post completely missed.

[qualitycomix]

The probation list should also be an incentive for those who are on the list to get off the list. If there is no way to get off, then why bother going thru the motions?

 

In my case, I would have sent the invoices regardless but to many if they get on the list, then there is no reason to make things right if there is a good possibility they will stay on the list.

 

Also, it is very arbitrary as to who stays on the list and who doesn't. The rules are there, but they don't get followed in certain cases?

 

Finally, I think my sales history on the boards should be taken into account. I have sold here for 7 years to hundreds of boardies without incident.

 

I have said my peace and when I do decide to have a sales thread on the boards down the road, it will most likely turn into a huge cluster if I'm still on the list. There will be threadcrapping and trolling which supposedly is not allowed. And I'm sure I will sell books because I'm honest, I grade tightly and except for a very few incidents over the years, I'm responsive to inquiries and ship books promptly. My ebay feedback backs this up as well.

[PovertyRow]

There are two people wielding that power for this seller or was my post completely missed.

 

It wasn't missed. There are two INDIVIDUALS separately wielding that power. Same difference. Unless you have formed some kind of alliance with each other.

 

Regardless, my point should be clear enough.

[PovertyRow]

The probation list should also be an incentive for those who are on the list to get off the list. If there is no way to get off, then why bother going thru the motions?

 

In my case, I would have sent the invoices regardless but to many if they get on the list, then there is no reason to make things right if there is a good possibility they will stay on the list.

 

Also, it is very arbitrary as to who stays on the list and who doesn't. The rules are there, but they don't get followed in certain cases?

 

Finally, I think my sales history on the boards should be taken into account. I have sold here for 7 years to hundreds of boardies without incident.

 

I have said my peace and when I do decide to have a sales thread on the boards down the road, it will most likely turn into a huge cluster if I'm still on the list. There will be threadcrapping and trolling which supposedly is not allowed. And I'm sure I will sell books because I'm honest, I grade tightly and except for a very few incidents over the years, I'm responsive to inquiries and ship books promptly. My ebay feedback backs this up as well.

 

Be proactive. Should you still be on the PL List I would suggest prefacing your sales thread with a BRIEF but bold statement that you are on the PL list, did your best to make restitution, but the refusal of one or more members to accept the restitution is keeping you on the PL list.

 

Then begin the sales thread.

[Speedy-D]

I don't think this is subject to third party opinions. The rules are clear:

 

4) Removal From The PL

a) If the accuser requests the accused be removed form the PL, the accused will be removed.

 

b) If the accused makes full restitution to the satisfaction of the accuser, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

c) If multiple accusers are involved, and full restitution is satisfactorily made to all accusers, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

I like Brent and will do business with him regardless of the outcome, but the removal from the PL is pretty simple. If Logan510, who was one of the accusers and he is not satisfied with his results, then there is no current recourse - no waiting period, no voting. Very similar to how another on these boards has not let one individual be removed from PL.

IMO, this is a gap in the way it works. If you get on the PL, you should be able to get off the PL. Otherwise what's the difference between the PL and the HoS?

EDIT: looking at 2d: "d) If reasonable additional expenses are incurred the accuser may include them as part of the resolution. The validity of "reasonable additional expenses" may be subject to discussion."

 

This assumes that there's a resolution. If someone can just refuse to accept anything, no matter how reasonable, how is it supposed to get resolved?

 

I agree it is a huge gap in the way things work. When the PL Rules were being compiled and worked out "my" assumption when phrasing this that people would not try to use this in the way it is being used, to refuse any recourse just to keep someone on the list. It definitely needs revisiting.

 

NO member should be able to wield that kind of power over the PL list.

If it were up to me, I'd say that once someone on the PL makes a completely reasonable offer to his/her wronged party, and that offer is refused outright with no alternative suggested, he's done what he can and should come off the list.

 

Again, if people think someone deserves to be permanently listed, make the HoS move.

[PovertyRow]

If it were up to me, I'd say that once someone on the PL makes a completely reasonable offer to his/her wronged party, and that offer is refused outright with no alternative suggested, he's done what he can and should come off the list.

 

Again, if people think someone deserves to be permanently listed, make the HoS move.

 

I would back that 100%.

[qualitycomix]

I made a suggestion to Sharon via PM that maybe offenders could be put on a 3 or 6 month waiting time after resolution/resolution offered before being taken off the list or they could voluntarily agree to not put on any sales threads for 3 or 6 months after resolution/resolution offered.

 

I don't think boardies should be able to keep other boardies on the probation list. I'm not saying it's the case in this case, but if one boardie bears a grudge, it can be leveraged on the probation list forever. That is not just.

[Logan510]

I am not a cold hearted person. But I saw no remorse or reasonable explanation for the lack of communication. There is a history of this kind of behavior, where does it end? Should an example be made that this type of repeated behavior should not be tolerated? I think so. He might be the nicest guy in the world, but that doesn't mean he's a good businessman.

[seanfingh]

I am not a cold hearted person. But I saw no remorse or reasonable explanation for the lack of communication. There is a history of this kind of behavior, where does it end? Should an example be made that this type of repeated behavior should not be tolerated? I think so. He might be the nicest guy in the world, but that doesn't mean he's a good businessman.

 

How much remorse is necessary? How repentant must the offender be? Where should the power of the aggrieved party end? If a reasonable attempt to make amends is made, what more can be asked of that person? Obviously the offending party f-ed up. Unless it is HOS time, there has to be a way to get off the PL. It is not fair to say, "I don't want your restitution, you must continue to wear the Scarlet Letter."

[qualitycomix]

I am not a cold hearted person. But I saw no remorse or reasonable explanation for the lack of communication. There is a history of this kind of behavior, where does it end? Should an example be made that this type of repeated behavior should not be tolerated? I think so. He might be the nicest guy in the world, but that doesn't mean he's a good businessman.

 

I have apologized in this thread and expressed remorse. Please re-read what I have written. I will send you a PM directly to discuss if you're open to that.

[Logan510]

I am not a cold hearted person. But I saw no remorse or reasonable explanation for the lack of communication. There is a history of this kind of behavior, where does it end? Should an example be made that this type of repeated behavior should not be tolerated? I think so. He might be the nicest guy in the world, but that doesn't mean he's a good businessman.

 

How much remorse is necessary? How repentant must the offender be? Where should the power of the aggrieved party end? If a reasonable attempt to make amends is made, what more can be asked of that person? Obviously the offending party f-ed up. Unless it is HOS time, there has to be a way to get off the PL. It is not fair to say, "I don't want your restitution, you must continue to wear the Scarlet Letter."

 

I don't care if he's taken off the list. But what's the limit for acting like a doosh if all that happens is a little slap on the wrists? There were no life altering circumstances at play here, just some dude who couldn't be bothered taking care of his responsibilities..and not the first time it's happened.