PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[Kitsune]

1. kitsune agreed to buy something from RMA

2. kitsune threw conditions onto the purchase after the fact (end of June payment) which RMA (begrudgingly) agreed to.

3. after date passed, RMA asked kitsune if he was still interested in the book, to which kitsune threw additional conditions onto the transaction after not fulfilling the conditions in #2, which RMA didnt appear to agree to (payment after SDCC).

 

Facts I think...

A. Agreement was for payment by end of June (based on conditions in #2)

B. Both parties have 30 days to complete the transaction by the agreed upon terms (even those begrudgingly agreed to) before either party can make a PL nomination.

 

So I think technically that means that kitsune has until the end of this month to complete the transaction and meet his agreed to obligation.

 

RMA Im on your side that this guy is a poor buyer. Throwing up terms after the "I'll take it" is a sketchy way to start a transaction, much less his demeanor after that point. Dont think Im siding with him on this, please.

 

I know there's been an outstanding question in the past that when other terms are agreed to (specific payment dates) when does the 30 day clock start ticking? I think it was decided its when the payment date hits, so basedon that kitsune is not PL eligible yet (at least not for another 7 days).

 

Yes this is my understanding also (quoting the rules) "the 30 day clock begins from the time the agreed upon conditions were violated." So if he had until "the end of the month" of June, then the 30 day expires "end of July". Let us hope perhaps this can be resolved before then.

 

I accepted him altering the terms of the sale. I did not "agree" to it, because agreements are made PRIOR TO the deal, not after the fact. I simply had no choice if I wanted the transaction to be completed.

 

I was trying to graciously accomodate a customer, and that grace was taken advantage of.

 

The clock starts ticking with the unqualified unless arrangements are made PRIOR to that.

 

You don't get to make your own terms after the fact, and then that's "where the clock starts."

 

Did you not agree to letting me pay at end of June? I'm sure you did type, "Sure, that's fine." That too me doesn't show that you disagree or was upset about me asking you to pay at the end of the month.

 

No choice? Everybody has a choice. You had the choice to not agreed to letting me pay at the end of June. Am I right?

 

You could have stuck to your terms but when I asked "I don't get paid until the end of the month so is that okay?" That isn't a term, it was purely asking if you willing to accept in which you did.

 

Anyways, enough of these issues.

 

If you want to complete this transaction as I stated in my pm to you yesterday that I would pay that night or today, what is it going to be?

 

Me pay you and get this done with or you don't want to accept my payment and the transaction and continue your crying to the board?

 

I'm trying to make an amends here.

[miraclemet]

1. kitsune agreed to buy something from RMA

2. kitsune threw conditions onto the purchase after the fact (end of June payment) which RMA (begrudgingly) agreed to.

3. after date passed, RMA asked kitsune if he was still interested in the book, to which kitsune threw additional conditions onto the transaction after not fulfilling the conditions in #2, which RMA didnt appear to agree to (payment after SDCC).

 

Facts I think...

A. Agreement was for payment by end of June (based on conditions in #2)

B. Both parties have 30 days to complete the transaction by the agreed upon terms (even those begrudgingly agreed to) before either party can make a PL nomination.

 

So I think technically that means that kitsune has until the end of this month to complete the transaction and meet his agreed to obligation.

 

RMA Im on your side that this guy is a poor buyer. Throwing up terms after the "I'll take it" is a sketchy way to start a transaction, much less his demeanor after that point. Dont think Im siding with him on this, please.

 

I know there's been an outstanding question in the past that when other terms are agreed to (specific payment dates) when does the 30 day clock start ticking? I think it was decided its when the payment date hits, so basedon that kitsune is not PL eligible yet (at least not for another 7 days).

 

Yes this is my understanding also (quoting the rules) "the 30 day clock begins from the time the agreed upon conditions were violated." So if he had until "the end of the month" of June, then the 30 day expires "end of July". Let us hope perhaps this can be resolved before then.

 

I accepted him altering the terms of the sale. I did not "agree" to it, because agreements are made PRIOR TO the deal, not after the fact. I simply had no choice if I wanted the transaction to be completed.

 

The clock starts ticking with the unqualified unless arrangements are made PRIOR to that.

 

You don't get to make your own terms after the fact, and then state that's "where the clock starts."

 

Respectfully, and I generally sympathize with your dislike of how this went down, you cannot so easily separate what you "accepted" from what you "agreed" to. You could have said "No" to any post-sale conditions.

 

I could have, but I do like to be accomodating if I can. I can easily differentiate between agreements (which are arranged prior to inking the deal) and acceptance of terms after the fact ("oh, by the way, would you mind...") because I really don't have much choice if I'm being a good businessman.

 

Regardless of the quibble over "agree" and "accept", the point remains that the clock started ticking at the unqualified , not after-the-fact acceptance of additional terms.

 

 

 

And I appreciate your efforts to be accommodating.

 

again, your internal rules may differ, but as I said previously, this thread has discussed the "when does the 30 day clock start ticking when extensions are requested" and the concensus was that the clock started at the time of the most recent deadline. The seller does not have to accept a payment deadline extension past the agreement, but you did.

[Park]

This is complete BS. Not surprising that you can't separate your feelings from fact but this is embarrassing.

 

RMA brought the situation before the boards via the discussion thread and asked what he could do. I would tell you to go read it again and see where you have made a Grand Canyon size leap in logic but you have already entered the "answer the question" phase.

 

Using your same logic, every buyer from one of your sales thread could do the same thing and you would be fine with it right? No?

 

Gimme a break.

 

So let me ask.

 

I accept the fact that he cannot be put on the PL if he offers to pay. I was hoping he would ignore that, so that he could be put on the probation list.

 

If this statement Bio-Rupp peeled out is misinterpretted, and RMA is just looking to resolve an outstanding transaction, then doesn't the official part of the transaction concern go away when kitsune offered to pay? Or did all that happen beyond the normal 30 day waiting period and the resolution period allowed?

 

There is still an awareness concern that if people are seeing a trend with kitsune's behavior, they should take this into consideration for the future. Then they can take the approach Bababooey recommended to post a personal tracking note for themselves.

 

What does any of that (although reasonable) have to do with anything I posted?

 

Bio Rupp is making hypocritical statements because he doesn't like RMA. He can't separate that from the facts of what is going on in this discussion thread.

 

He said coercion for Pete's sake. What do you think this discussion thread is most of the time? Coercing people into doing what they promised they would do.

 

Now being that it is RMA, the people that do not like him can't separate that fact from the situation. That includes Rupp and Mikey. RMA wants to tell Kitsune at this point to suck an egg. I don't blame him and I agree with him. He should be able to based on what has been presented at this point without fear of this knucklehead trying to put him on the PL. If you or others want to tote the "rules" of the PL as black and white then you are missing the point of what the PL should be about.

 

Tons and tons of discussion goes back and forth about the angst of calling out crappy sellers and crappy buyers but when presented with a case perfect for this Rupp wants to black and white? Please. If you can't see through that charade, then nothing I am saying is going to get through to you or others.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Park

[miraclemet]

And all of this is academic.

 

true, but its sooo much better than work!

 

 

I will not sell him this book, and so kitsune does not go on the PL, because he now has no way of "making it right." I accept that. He had 30 days to pay, and he chose not to. Nothing was stopping him from sending payment. Had I listed and sold the book elsewhere (I did not), I could have simply refunded his money.

 

 

I'd say in the future you could modify your sales thread rules from the "I reserve the right to not sell to anyone" to something more akin to "I reserve the right to not sell to anyone, and to cancel any transaction at any time should I deem it necessary, by posting the potential buyers agree to this condition."

 

then potential buyers can decide if they want to play by your rules and you are 100% covered for any future action!

[bababooey]

The PL timing isn't relevant to any rights to the book that kitsune has - claiming a book a week before the end of June and saying you're going to pay in a week doesn't move any clocks, he's just paying within the standard 30 days.

 

All of the timing is irrelevant if RMA does not want to sell the book for whatever reason because he specified:

I reserve the right to sell to whomever I choose, just like everyone else.

 

If a seller posting this wants to back away from an he can.

 

True, a seller can state his terms.

And I've always agreed to that approach (as long as its stated)

 

But can a seller back out at any point even after they've agreed/accepted someone's ?

Can they back out 10 days later? 29 days later?

It looked like RMA accepted kitsune as a buyer at the time of the and even after the request for payment terms beyond the unconditional

In my opinion, he can but I don't know if the community would agree with that.

 

I think sales thread rules trump probation rules when it comes to how the buyer/seller interact - someone says "payment in 3 days" - 30 days is no longer relevant as it relates to the sale but I don't know if those failures qualify for PL list.

 

When someone says "usual rules apply" - they are basically saying that the PL guidelines are in place for their thread.

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

1. kitsune agreed to buy something from RMA

2. kitsune threw conditions onto the purchase after the fact (end of June payment) which RMA (begrudgingly) agreed to.

3. after date passed, RMA asked kitsune if he was still interested in the book, to which kitsune threw additional conditions onto the transaction after not fulfilling the conditions in #2, which RMA didnt appear to agree to (payment after SDCC).

 

Facts I think...

A. Agreement was for payment by end of June (based on conditions in #2)

B. Both parties have 30 days to complete the transaction by the agreed upon terms (even those begrudgingly agreed to) before either party can make a PL nomination.

 

So I think technically that means that kitsune has until the end of this month to complete the transaction and meet his agreed to obligation.

 

RMA Im on your side that this guy is a poor buyer. Throwing up terms after the "I'll take it" is a sketchy way to start a transaction, much less his demeanor after that point. Dont think Im siding with him on this, please.

 

I know there's been an outstanding question in the past that when other terms are agreed to (specific payment dates) when does the 30 day clock start ticking? I think it was decided its when the payment date hits, so basedon that kitsune is not PL eligible yet (at least not for another 7 days).

 

Yes this is my understanding also (quoting the rules) "the 30 day clock begins from the time the agreed upon conditions were violated." So if he had until "the end of the month" of June, then the 30 day expires "end of July". Let us hope perhaps this can be resolved before then.

 

I accepted him altering the terms of the sale. I did not "agree" to it, because agreements are made PRIOR TO the deal, not after the fact. I simply had no choice if I wanted the transaction to be completed.

 

The clock starts ticking with the unqualified unless arrangements are made PRIOR to that.

 

You don't get to make your own terms after the fact, and then state that's "where the clock starts."

 

Respectfully, and I generally sympathize with your dislike of how this went down, you cannot so easily separate what you "accepted" from what you "agreed" to. You could have said "No" to any post-sale conditions.

 

I could have, but I do like to be accomodating if I can. I can easily differentiate between agreements (which are arranged prior to inking the deal) and acceptance of terms after the fact ("oh, by the way, would you mind...") because I really don't have much choice if I'm being a good businessman.

 

Regardless of the quibble over "agree" and "accept", the point remains that the clock started ticking at the unqualified , not after-the-fact acceptance of additional terms.

 

 

 

And I appreciate your efforts to be accommodating.

 

again, your internal rules may differ, but as I said previously, this thread has discussed the "when does the 30 day clock start ticking when extensions are requested" and the concensus was that the clock started at the time of the most recent deadline. The seller does not have to accept a payment deadline extension past the agreement, but you did.

 

If we're going to be contractually precise, then "the end of June" is nebulous, and has no meaning, and therefore cannot be considered "part of the clock." What does "end of June" mean? June 30? June 28? June 25?

 

Again, if we're going to be contractually precise, rather than behaving under "gentlemen's agreements" conditions.

 

I much rather prefer to behave like gentlemen, rather than trying to apply contractual precision after the fact where there is none.

 

The clock does not get placed where there is nothing precise to fix it to. This was NOT a "can I pay you on June 29th?" situation.

[miraclemet]

If we're going to be contractually precise, then "the end of June" is nebulous, and has no meaning, and therefore cannot be considered "part of the clock." What does "end of June" mean? June 30? June 28? June 25?

 

Again, if we're going to be contractually precise, rather than behaving under "gentlemen's agreements" conditions.

 

I much rather prefer to behave like gentlemen, rather than trying to apply contractual precision after the fact where there is none.

 

The clock does not get placed where there is nothing precise to fix it to. This was NOT a "can I pay you on June 29th?" situation.

 

 

[Kitsune]

And all of this is academic. I accept the conditions of the PL that if a buyer makes an offer to pay...even though multiple offers to pay had already been made, and then not honored...he cannot be placed on the PL.

 

I will not sell him this book, and so kitsune does not go on the PL, because he now has no way of "making it right." I accept that. He had 30 days to pay, and he chose not to. Nothing was stopping him from sending payment. Had I listed and sold the book elsewhere (I did not), I could have simply refunded his money.

 

He made no good faith effort to honor his word.

 

Please explain to me the PL time line to add or post about adding people to PL.

 

72hrs from first notice of pm or 72hrs from the dealine of 30 days to pay?

[RockMyAmadeus]

continue your crying to the board?

 

I'm trying to make an amends here.

 

Yes, these two sentences really did proceed one after the other, with nothing in between.

[RockMyAmadeus]

If we're going to be contractually precise, then "the end of June" is nebulous, and has no meaning, and therefore cannot be considered "part of the clock." What does "end of June" mean? June 30? June 28? June 25?

 

Again, if we're going to be contractually precise, rather than behaving under "gentlemen's agreements" conditions.

 

I much rather prefer to behave like gentlemen, rather than trying to apply contractual precision after the fact where there is none.

 

The clock does not get placed where there is nothing precise to fix it to. This was NOT a "can I pay you on June 29th?" situation.

 

 

 

Senor Chang.

 

[Kitsune]

continue your crying to the board?

 

I'm trying to make an amends here.

 

Yes, these two sentences really did proceed one after the other, with nothing in between.

 

that doesn't matter, making amends to your crying means me paying for your book.

[miraclemet]

Please explain to me the PL time line to add or post about adding people to PL.

 

72hrs from first notice of pm or 72hrs from the dealine of 30 days to pay?

 

Probation List/Transaction Timeline.

Read all the rules HERE!

 

1) The 30-Day Rule

a) If a transaction between board members is not completed within 30 days, the offended party may submit the offender's name for inclusion to the HOS/Probation List (hereafter called the PL)

 

b) If the transaction is agreed on by both parties to take longer than 30 days - for example, a transaction involving time payments over a longer time, the 30 day clock begins from the time the agreed upon conditions were violated.

 

c) The 30-day rule is suspended if the accused refuses to complete the transaction or if the transaction cannot be completed due to, for example, the item being sold to someone else.

 

d) A Transaction between board members is not confined to the CGC Message Boards. Any transaction between forum members, regardless of the venue, is eligible for inclusion in the PL.

 

 

then...

2) Notification on the Probation Discussion Thread

a) After the 30 Day Rule is fulfilled, the accuser will send a PM to the accused informing them the issue is being submitted to the Probation Discussion Thread for their inclusion in the PL. This should be a new PM and not part of an existing PM chain.

 

then

 

3) Being Placed On The PL

a) After a 72-hour waiting period, if the accused does not respond they will be placed on the PL.

 

SO in summary

 

30 days to complete transaction (or 30 days post term violation)

then ofendee sends PM stating that the issues is being submitted to PL discussion.

the offender has 72 hrs to respond before being placed on the PL

[Kitsune]

okay, noted!

[Dr. Balls]

I think sales thread rules trump probation rules when it comes to how the buyer/seller interact - someone says "payment in 3 days" - 30 days is no longer relevant as it relates to the sale but I don't know if those failures qualify for PL list.

 

That is how I have always seen it. The 30 day rule for my threads does not apply because if there is non-payment by the end of three days, I cut ties and move on - and I have always assumed that that doesn't allow me to utilize the PL.

[RockMyAmadeus]

amends

 

via Imgflip Meme Maker

[Sqeggs]

Knowing RMA's pleasantness here on the boards, I'm sure his notification of PL discussion and 72 hour time frame was probably the most sweet and sincere thing the guy had ever read as well.

 

Again the guy was wrong in dragging out the sale... but the PL discussion board and 72 hour notification rule did what it was supposed to do if the guy offered to pay for the item... which is complete the sale.

 

I was wondering about that part, as well. Kitsune's response was bad but we don't know what the tone of the PM he received was.

[Sqeggs]

 

That's exactly the problem though. A member that does something like this shouldn't just walk away unscathed. There's a lot of board members that don't keep up with or in some cases even know about the PL or PL Discussion threads. As a community those that do, from my point of view, have a certain responsibility to watch out for the rest of the boards.

 

Your points are very well taken. As it is, for both buyers and sellers, we have the PL or nothin'. Any behavior -- such as in this case -- that is short of PL-worthy has no real consequence. And even PL-worthy behavior is brushed aside once the offender has "made good" -- which can take months.

[zuckuss2003]

Knowing RMA's pleasantness here on the boards, I'm sure his notification of PL discussion and 72 hour time frame was probably the most sweet and sincere thing the guy had ever read as well.

 

Again the guy was wrong in dragging out the sale... but the PL discussion board and 72 hour notification rule did what it was supposed to do if the guy offered to pay for the item... which is complete the sale.

 

I was wondering about that part, as well. Kitsune's response was bad but we don't know what the tone of the PM he received was.

We do, it was posted earlier.

 

 

[Bosco685]

That doesn't sound like "resolve this or this may end badly".

 

It may have been better to let the buyer know they had clearly exceeding the timeline agreed to, and their options were to either address the purchase or there would be no choice but to put them on the PL.

 

But then again, like stated earlier, what is the use of the PL if someone is then actively selling to people on the PL?

[Sqeggs]

Knowing RMA's pleasantness here on the boards, I'm sure his notification of PL discussion and 72 hour time frame was probably the most sweet and sincere thing the guy had ever read as well.

 

Again the guy was wrong in dragging out the sale... but the PL discussion board and 72 hour notification rule did what it was supposed to do if the guy offered to pay for the item... which is complete the sale.

 

I was wondering about that part, as well. Kitsune's response was bad but we don't know what the tone of the PM he received was.

We do, it was posted earlier.

 

 

 

Yep. My post came several pages before I read the page that was on. Somehow, I assumed all the following pages wouldn't be about this same darn case!