Flipping, a mortal sin?

[MCMiles]

I know how to grade, and I've got some nice raw books to sell. I'll give you any freaking guarantee you want, including full return privelages. Wanna buy them at GPA?

 

 

I do it all the time. I spent a lot of money on comic books at Heroes. I based all of my purchases on GPA. Most were raw books, but I value my grade as much as I do CGC's, so it's easy. If I valued your grade as much as CGC's then I would have no problem paying GPA for your books if I wanted them.

 

I agree with this.

 

Agree all you like. See what you think when you try to sell that book down the road.

 

Valuing your grade as much as CGC??? Paying GPA? This is a fine recipe for losing money.

 

I susbscribe to the same philosophy as Mike, so far that recipe has funded my collecting habit, the funds I need for 3 major conventions every year and some additional money to start up a business with. Even with the drop in GPA averages for most books the formula is still paying off.

 

That's just crazy talk. there is no way you can pick a 9.4 that isn't already in a 9.4 holder.

[THE_BEYONDER]

I know how to grade, and I've got some nice raw books to sell. I'll give you any freaking guarantee you want, including full return privelages. Wanna buy them at GPA?

 

 

I do it all the time. I spent a lot of money on comic books at Heroes. I based all of my purchases on GPA. Most were raw books, but I value my grade as much as I do CGC's, so it's easy. If I valued your grade as much as CGC's then I would have no problem paying GPA for your books if I wanted them.

 

I agree with this.

 

Agree all you like. See what you think when you try to sell that book down the road.

 

Valuing your grade as much as CGC??? Paying GPA? This is a fine recipe for losing money.

 

I susbscribe to the same philosophy as Mike, so far that recipe has funded my collecting habit, the funds I need for 3 major conventions every year and some additional money to start up a business with. Even with the drop in GPA averages for most books the formula is still paying off.

 

Kinda leaving out part of the formula...aren't you? You may be willing to pay 9.4 GPA value for a NM raw book, but that book is coming back from CGC as a 9.6 or better....right?

 

 

Otherwise....how does paying GPA for raw books FUND anything?

[MCMiles]

The point is GPA is used to buy raw books by a lot of people.

[THE_BEYONDER]

The point is GPA is used to buy raw books by a lot of people.

 

I understand that. I also understand that there's no FUNDS to be made by buying a raw NM book for 9.4 GPA if the book slabs out at 9.4

 

 

[MCMiles]

The point is GPA is used to buy raw books by a lot of people.

 

I understand that. I also understand that there's no FUNDS to be made by buying a raw NM book for 9.4 GPA if the book slabs out at 9.4

 

 

Don't make that mistake. If you're incapable of making the distinction, or absorbing the risk, then don't do it.

[DrWatson]

I think the point is they are using GPA as a guide when purchasing raw books. If they know book X sells for $50 slabbed according to GPA, then they would be willing to pay $15 for it raw where someone else would only pay $8 or $10.

[THE_BEYONDER]

The point is GPA is used to buy raw books by a lot of people.

 

I understand that. I also understand that there's no FUNDS to be made by buying a raw NM book for 9.4 GPA if the book slabs out at 9.4

 

 

Don't make that mistake. If you're incapable of making the distinction, or absorbing the risk, then don't do it.

 

 

You stated that you're willing to pay GPA prices for raw books. The reality is that your willing to pay 9.4 GPA prices for books that will slab out higher than 9.4

 

That's all I saying.

[THE_BEYONDER]

I think the point is they are using GPA as a guide when purchasing raw books. If they know book X sells for $50 slabbed according to GPA, then they would be willing to pay $15 for it raw where someone else would only pay $8 or $10.

 

I get that. I don't see the disconnect between GPA & raw books that some here do. If I'm looking to purchase a raw NM copy of ASM 136 for example.....it would be foolish not to know what slabbed 9.4s are selling for before I buy one.

[MCMiles]

The point is GPA is used to buy raw books by a lot of people.

 

I understand that. I also understand that there's no FUNDS to be made by buying a raw NM book for 9.4 GPA if the book slabs out at 9.4

 

 

Don't make that mistake. If you're incapable of making the distinction, or absorbing the risk, then don't do it.

 

 

You stated that you're willing to pay GPA prices for raw books. The reality is that your willing to pay 9.4 GPA prices for books that will slab out higher than 9.4

 

That's all I saying.

Who wouldn't.

 

But not entirely true, not all books I buy are bought for re-sale. I can be a flipper/dealer and collector at the same time. Believe it or not.

 

Again, the point is GPA information is used to buy raw books by people that are confident in their ability to grade, or at least predict the CGC grade.

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

The point is GPA is used to buy raw books by a lot of people.

 

I understand that. I also understand that there's no FUNDS to be made by buying a raw NM book for 9.4 GPA if the book slabs out at 9.4

 

 

Don't make that mistake. If you're incapable of making the distinction, or absorbing the risk, then don't do it.

 

 

You stated that you're willing to pay GPA prices for raw books. The reality is that your willing to pay 9.4 GPA prices for books that will slab out higher than 9.4

 

That's all I saying.

Who wouldn't.

 

But not entirely true, not all books I buy are bought for re-sale. I can be a flipper/dealer and collector at the same time. Believe it or not.

 

Again, the point is GPA information is used to buy raw books by people that are confident in their ability to grade, or at least predict the CGC grade.

 

I agree.

[joeypost]

I think the point is they are using GPA as a guide when purchasing raw books. If they know book X sells for $50 slabbed according to GPA, then they would be willing to pay $15 for it raw where someone else would only pay $8 or $10.

 

Thanks jim, and yes that is how I use GPA when determining what I would be willing to pay for a book. I still use the guide to balance out what the GPA average is.

 

If I am keeping it for my collection, or it is a book I have been looking for for quite some time I will pay true GPA for the raw copy. Call me crazy but I have filled holes in my collection that way. Otherwise I have to wait for someone else to come up with that book in a slab.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

But not entirely true, not all books I buy are bought for re-sale. I can be a flipper/dealer and collector at the same time. Believe it or not.

 

Again, the point is GPA information is used to buy raw books by people that are confident in their ability to grade, or at least predict the CGC grade.

 

The original point was about ASKING GPA prices as a seller...not as a buyer.

 

I would never pay, say, $1200 for, let's throw a random book out there, an Amazing Spiderman #129...that I THINK may grade out at 9.4 (which is right around current GPA for a 9.4) even if I am positive the book will grade out a 9.4.

 

The only way I'm paying "GPA" for anything is if it's A. already slabbed, or B. I think the potential grade is SOLIDLY above the "GPA level" that I'm buying it (which, of course, now renders that particular GPA discussion moot.)

 

I'm a very good grader. But that doesn't mean CGC is going to agree with my grade.

 

The only way it works...as Beyonder pointed out...is if you're sure the book will grade out higher than you expect, or the seller is "quoting" a lower "GPA grade" than you think it is (ie, quoting a GPA 9.0 price because he/she thinks it's 9.0, rather than the 9.4 you think it is.)

 

Let's be perfectly frank: the prices achieved on slabbed books are solely and only because they are slabbed. Remove the slab, and the prices disappear. There are many reasons for this, which I won't go into now, but suffice it to say, that's the way it is.

 

An FF #112 would not have sold for $24,000...in any incarnation...had it not been for the slab. Even if it was pronounced the "mintiest copy in existence" by the most respected names in the hobby, it would NEVER have sold for $24K without the slab (or at least until inflation caught up to it.)

 

And yet, even now, I'll bet there are some dealers who have heard about this, and jacked up the prices of their raw copies of FF #112 because of that sale.

 

Therefore, opportunists who quote slabbed prices for unslabbed books are just that: opportunists. Until and if those people start a grading company that has the same level of market support and trust as CGC, that won't change.

 

 

[MCMiles]

 

But not entirely true, not all books I buy are bought for re-sale. I can be a flipper/dealer and collector at the same time. Believe it or not.

 

Again, the point is GPA information is used to buy raw books by people that are confident in their ability to grade, or at least predict the CGC grade.

 

The original point was about ASKING GPA prices as a seller...not as a buyer.

 

I would never pay, say, $1200 for, let's throw a random book out there, an Amazing Spiderman #129...that I THINK may grade out at 9.4 (which is right around current GPA for a 9.4) even if I am positive the book will grade out a 9.4.

 

The only way I'm paying "GPA" for anything is if it's A. already slabbed, or B. I think the potential grade is SOLIDLY above the "GPA level" that I'm buying it (which, of course, now renders that particular GPA discussion moot.)

 

I'm a very good grader. But that doesn't mean CGC is going to agree with my grade.

 

The only way it works...as Beyonder pointed out...is if you're sure the book will grade out higher than you expect, or the seller is "quoting" a lower "GPA grade" than you think it is (ie, quoting a GPA 9.0 price because he/she thinks it's 9.0, rather than the 9.4 you think it is.)

 

Let's be perfectly frank: the prices achieved on slabbed books are solely and only because they are slabbed. Remove the slab, and the prices disappear. There are many reasons for this, which I won't go into now, but suffice it to say, that's the way it is.

 

An FF #112 would not have sold for $24,000...in any incarnation...had it not been for the slab. Even if it was pronounced the "mintiest copy in existence" by the most respected names in the hobby, it would NEVER have sold for $24K without the slab (or at least until inflation caught up to it.)

 

And yet, even now, I'll bet there are some dealers who have heard about this, and jacked up the prices of their raw copies of FF #112 because of that sale.

 

Therefore, opportunists who quote slabbed prices for unslabbed books are just that: opportunists. Until and if those people start a grading company that has the same level of market support and trust as CGC, that won't change.

 

 

Yeah, I know. I read all of the posts.

 

COI, asked if I would pay GPA for his unslabbed books. I am pretty sure he asked that in order to back up his stance that GPA should not be used to sell raw books. The answer is "I do it every day"

 

It only makes sense that if I am willing to buy raw books based on GPA information, then I don't have a problem with people quoting GPA when they sell books. If I believe in their grading, I don't have a problem paying a price based on GPA information. The concept is the same.

 

Some of us can buy the comic books for what grade they are wether they are inside or outside of the slab. Some of us don't need some one to hold our hand every step of the way. Beyond that, some of us know how to use common sense and caution when dealing with certain books or certain people.

 

Oppurtunists? Seriously. I really don't need to defend myself here, because, as I've already stated, I don't quote GPA when selling raw books, but people that don't use GPA when buying high grade books wether raw or slabbed are just denying themselves oppurtunity. They could probably gain a lot if they would gain some skills, some confidence, do some research and make some decisions for themselves.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

But not entirely true, not all books I buy are bought for re-sale. I can be a flipper/dealer and collector at the same time. Believe it or not.

 

Again, the point is GPA information is used to buy raw books by people that are confident in their ability to grade, or at least predict the CGC grade.

 

The original point was about ASKING GPA prices as a seller...not as a buyer.

 

I would never pay, say, $1200 for, let's throw a random book out there, an Amazing Spiderman #129...that I THINK may grade out at 9.4 (which is right around current GPA for a 9.4) even if I am positive the book will grade out a 9.4.

 

The only way I'm paying "GPA" for anything is if it's A. already slabbed, or B. I think the potential grade is SOLIDLY above the "GPA level" that I'm buying it (which, of course, now renders that particular GPA discussion moot.)

 

I'm a very good grader. But that doesn't mean CGC is going to agree with my grade.

 

The only way it works...as Beyonder pointed out...is if you're sure the book will grade out higher than you expect, or the seller is "quoting" a lower "GPA grade" than you think it is (ie, quoting a GPA 9.0 price because he/she thinks it's 9.0, rather than the 9.4 you think it is.)

 

Let's be perfectly frank: the prices achieved on slabbed books are solely and only because they are slabbed. Remove the slab, and the prices disappear. There are many reasons for this, which I won't go into now, but suffice it to say, that's the way it is.

 

An FF #112 would not have sold for $24,000...in any incarnation...had it not been for the slab. Even if it was pronounced the "mintiest copy in existence" by the most respected names in the hobby, it would NEVER have sold for $24K without the slab (or at least until inflation caught up to it.)

 

And yet, even now, I'll bet there are some dealers who have heard about this, and jacked up the prices of their raw copies of FF #112 because of that sale.

 

Therefore, opportunists who quote slabbed prices for unslabbed books are just that: opportunists. Until and if those people start a grading company that has the same level of market support and trust as CGC, that won't change.

 

 

Yeah, I know. I read all of the posts.

 

COI, asked if I would pay GPA for his unslabbed books. I am pretty sure he asked that in order to back up his stance that GPA should not be used to sell raw books. The answer is "I do it every day"

 

It only makes sense that if I am willing to buy raw books based on GPA information, then I don't have a problem with people quoting GPA when they sell books. If I believe in their grading, I don't have a problem paying a price based on GPA information. The concept is the same.

 

Some of us can buy the comic books for what grade they are wether they are inside or outside of the slab. Some of us don't need some one to hold our hand every step of the way. Beyond that, some of us know how to use common sense and caution when dealing with certain books or certain people.

 

And some of us understand the realities of a market that is so razor thin when it comes to quarter grade differences that we don't make the mistake of buying raw items at "GPA" that we intend to have slabbed and sell. If that raw book that you just bought at the 9.6 GPA turns out to be a 9.0 because of a flaw BOTH you AND the seller missed (quite easy), or even slight resto, or even just CGC not agreeing with either of your grades, then you've potentially lost a ton of money.

 

I go to Vegas to gamble, not local comic cons. Call it "hand holding" if you wish.

 

Buying for yourself? Whole different ball of wax. You can use whatever you want, even Chuckles' prices, because it's then a matter of personal taste.

 

Oppurtunists? Seriously. I really don't need to defend myself here, because, as I've already stated, I don't quote GPA when selling raw books,

 

So then my comment had nothing to do with you. (thumbs u

 

[october]

Let's be perfectly frank: the prices achieved on slabbed books are solely and only because they are slabbed. Remove the slab, and the prices disappear.

 

Nonsense. The amount of slabs that garner a significant premium over a raw copy is actually fairly small. Virtually any non key bronze, copper or modern in 9.2 or under brings the same prices as their raw counterparts. Likewise, for many gold and atom age books, the slab is completely incidental. GPA is a useful tool in determining the true market value of these books, as buyers don't recognize the slab as adding much, if anything, to the deal.

 

Now, 9.4 silver age books are a different story altogether, but that's hardly all slabs, is it?

[KingOfRulers]

 

But not entirely true, not all books I buy are bought for re-sale. I can be a flipper/dealer and collector at the same time. Believe it or not.

 

Again, the point is GPA information is used to buy raw books by people that are confident in their ability to grade, or at least predict the CGC grade.

 

The original point was about ASKING GPA prices as a seller...not as a buyer.

 

I would never pay, say, $1200 for, let's throw a random book out there, an Amazing Spiderman #129...that I THINK may grade out at 9.4 (which is right around current GPA for a 9.4) even if I am positive the book will grade out a 9.4.

 

The only way I'm paying "GPA" for anything is if it's A. already slabbed, or B. I think the potential grade is SOLIDLY above the "GPA level" that I'm buying it (which, of course, now renders that particular GPA discussion moot.)

 

I'm a very good grader. But that doesn't mean CGC is going to agree with my grade.

 

The only way it works...as Beyonder pointed out...is if you're sure the book will grade out higher than you expect, or the seller is "quoting" a lower "GPA grade" than you think it is (ie, quoting a GPA 9.0 price because he/she thinks it's 9.0, rather than the 9.4 you think it is.)

 

Let's be perfectly frank: the prices achieved on slabbed books are solely and only because they are slabbed. Remove the slab, and the prices disappear. There are many reasons for this, which I won't go into now, but suffice it to say, that's the way it is.

 

An FF #112 would not have sold for $24,000...in any incarnation...had it not been for the slab. Even if it was pronounced the "mintiest copy in existence" by the most respected names in the hobby, it would NEVER have sold for $24K without the slab (or at least until inflation caught up to it.)

 

And yet, even now, I'll bet there are some dealers who have heard about this, and jacked up the prices of their raw copies of FF #112 because of that sale.

 

Therefore, opportunists who quote slabbed prices for unslabbed books are just that: opportunists. Until and if those people start a grading company that has the same level of market support and trust as CGC, that won't change.

 

 

Yeah, I know. I read all of the posts.

 

COI, asked if I would pay GPA for his unslabbed books. I am pretty sure he asked that in order to back up his stance that GPA should not be used to sell raw books. The answer is "I do it every day"

 

It only makes sense that if I am willing to buy raw books based on GPA information, then I don't have a problem with people quoting GPA when they sell books. If I believe in their grading, I don't have a problem paying a price based on GPA information. The concept is the same.

 

Some of us can buy the comic books for what grade they are wether they are inside or outside of the slab. Some of us don't need some one to hold our hand every step of the way. Beyond that, some of us know how to use common sense and caution when dealing with certain books or certain people.

 

And some of us understand the realities of a market that is so razor thin when it comes to quarter grade differences that we don't make the mistake of buying raw items at "GPA" that we intend to have slabbed and sell. If that raw book that you just bought at the 9.6 GPA turns out to be a 9.0 because of a flaw BOTH you AND the seller missed (quite easy), or even slight resto, or even just CGC not agreeing with either of your grades, then you've potentially lost a ton of money.

 

I go to Vegas to gamble, not local comic cons. Call it "hand holding" if you wish.

 

Buying for yourself? Whole different ball of wax. You can use whatever you want, even Chuckles' prices, because it's then a matter of personal taste.

 

Oppurtunists? Seriously. I really don't need to defend myself here, because, as I've already stated, I don't quote GPA when selling raw books,

 

So then my comment had nothing to do with you. (thumbs u

 

You are seriously out of your mind.

 

One of the last persons that you need to teach your industry protocol to is MCMiles.

[Transplant]

The original point was about ASKING GPA prices as a seller...not as a buyer.

Actually, it wasn't. Mschmidt said that something contentious was sellers "quoting and using GPA for raw books."

 

I'll paraphrase what I've said here before. I sometimes quote GPA on books b/c the Guide is not relevant to that book at that grade. That could be b/c of scarcity or that is a high grade book. Personally, I could price the book at the same price I would otherwise and not mention GPA but that seems silly to omit the basis for my price. I'm not saying that I would price a book AT GPA. Rather, I reference it.

 

But even if I did price it higher than GPA, who cares? Any buyer is free to make a decision for themselves whether the price is acceptable.

 

Now, if you want to shoot me a PM or call me out in the discussion thread b/c I've obviously overgraded or quoting inaccurate GPA prices, feel free.

[Dale Roberts]

Yep, and a point that has been stated many times in this thread and in previous threads.

 

Why is this even a discussion? The people that would not naturally govern themselves by these standards aren't going to change, and the people to which these standards aren't good enough, aren't going to change either.

Bottom line: Sell at a figure you are comfortable with selling. If you aren't comfortable, then don't sell. The same thing can be said for buying. Sellers don't always have a huge margin to be offering up discounts.

 

I have bought books from Bob, Dale, Richard and a host of others. Sometimes I ask what they can do and other times I have paid asking. There are other things to consider in this hobby besides the price of a comic book.

 

 

I would never have a minutes problem with anyone making a dime off books I have sold. I am selling books for what I need out of them, or what I can get out of them. I would prefer not to be lied to for a discount though. Just say, hey, I think I can make a few bucks off this if you will take x amount.

 

If you can make money off the sale, more power to you. That just means you will come buy more books next time. That is why dealers are some of the best customers to have.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

The original point was about ASKING GPA prices as a seller...not as a buyer.

Actually, it wasn't. Mschmidt said that something contentious was sellers "quoting and using GPA for raw books."

 

Um. "Quoting and using GPA for raw books" and "ASKING GPA prices" for raw books is different...other than in a purely technical, semantical sort of way...how?

 

I'll paraphrase what I've said here before. I sometimes quote GPA on books b/c the Guide is not relevant to that book at that grade. That could be b/c of scarcity or that is a high grade book. Personally, I could price the book at the same price I would otherwise and not mention GPA but that seems silly to omit the basis for my price. I'm not saying that I would price a book AT GPA. Rather, I reference it.

 

Oh, come on.

 

Really? Seriously?

 

Fine...I revise my point to say "QUOTING" GPA prices as a foundation for negotiation, rather than "ASKING" GPA prices as a foundation for negotiation. Because, you know, that's ever so much different.

 

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

But not entirely true, not all books I buy are bought for re-sale. I can be a flipper/dealer and collector at the same time. Believe it or not.

 

Again, the point is GPA information is used to buy raw books by people that are confident in their ability to grade, or at least predict the CGC grade.

 

The original point was about ASKING GPA prices as a seller...not as a buyer.

 

I would never pay, say, $1200 for, let's throw a random book out there, an Amazing Spiderman #129...that I THINK may grade out at 9.4 (which is right around current GPA for a 9.4) even if I am positive the book will grade out a 9.4.

 

The only way I'm paying "GPA" for anything is if it's A. already slabbed, or B. I think the potential grade is SOLIDLY above the "GPA level" that I'm buying it (which, of course, now renders that particular GPA discussion moot.)

 

I'm a very good grader. But that doesn't mean CGC is going to agree with my grade.

 

The only way it works...as Beyonder pointed out...is if you're sure the book will grade out higher than you expect, or the seller is "quoting" a lower "GPA grade" than you think it is (ie, quoting a GPA 9.0 price because he/she thinks it's 9.0, rather than the 9.4 you think it is.)

 

Let's be perfectly frank: the prices achieved on slabbed books are solely and only because they are slabbed. Remove the slab, and the prices disappear. There are many reasons for this, which I won't go into now, but suffice it to say, that's the way it is.

 

An FF #112 would not have sold for $24,000...in any incarnation...had it not been for the slab. Even if it was pronounced the "mintiest copy in existence" by the most respected names in the hobby, it would NEVER have sold for $24K without the slab (or at least until inflation caught up to it.)

 

And yet, even now, I'll bet there are some dealers who have heard about this, and jacked up the prices of their raw copies of FF #112 because of that sale.

 

Therefore, opportunists who quote slabbed prices for unslabbed books are just that: opportunists. Until and if those people start a grading company that has the same level of market support and trust as CGC, that won't change.

 

 

Yeah, I know. I read all of the posts.

 

COI, asked if I would pay GPA for his unslabbed books. I am pretty sure he asked that in order to back up his stance that GPA should not be used to sell raw books. The answer is "I do it every day"

 

It only makes sense that if I am willing to buy raw books based on GPA information, then I don't have a problem with people quoting GPA when they sell books. If I believe in their grading, I don't have a problem paying a price based on GPA information. The concept is the same.

 

Some of us can buy the comic books for what grade they are wether they are inside or outside of the slab. Some of us don't need some one to hold our hand every step of the way. Beyond that, some of us know how to use common sense and caution when dealing with certain books or certain people.

 

And some of us understand the realities of a market that is so razor thin when it comes to quarter grade differences that we don't make the mistake of buying raw items at "GPA" that we intend to have slabbed and sell. If that raw book that you just bought at the 9.6 GPA turns out to be a 9.0 because of a flaw BOTH you AND the seller missed (quite easy), or even slight resto, or even just CGC not agreeing with either of your grades, then you've potentially lost a ton of money.

 

I go to Vegas to gamble, not local comic cons. Call it "hand holding" if you wish.

 

Buying for yourself? Whole different ball of wax. You can use whatever you want, even Chuckles' prices, because it's then a matter of personal taste.

 

Oppurtunists? Seriously. I really don't need to defend myself here, because, as I've already stated, I don't quote GPA when selling raw books,

 

So then my comment had nothing to do with you. (thumbs u

 

You are seriously out of your mind.

 

One of the last persons that you need to teach your industry protocol to is McMiles.

 

Yeah, I don't think it's possible for some of you to have a discussion without being insulting. It's like anybody who disagrees with your narrow worldview must be "seriously out of their mind." Not "well, here's where I think you're wrong"...or "well, ok, but have you thought about this?" No, it's straight to the insults. Amazing.

 

No one...not McMiles nor anyone else...is above having their positions challenged. Unless...could it be....is McMiles....a SACRED COW?

 

(thumbs u

 

And nothing I said is incorrect.