Flipping, a mortal sin?

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

That's because your points have ZERO merit. You have several successful comic sellers, with decades of combined experience, telling you your theories don't translate well into reality, and yet its them who are wrong?

 

Go home little boy. Its past your bed time.

 

1. Paying "9.6 GPA" or close to it, for a RAW book that a seller states is in 9.6 condition, and you think is in 9.6 (or better) condition, but comes back from CGC as a 9.2, or with missed resto, or has a flaw you both missed, is a great way to lose money. Potentially lots of it.

 

Go ahead. Disprove that. By all means.

 

Don't just sit there and act like an internet toughguy slinging 4th grade insults, Jive...disprove what I just said...if you can.

 

And here I thought you were one of the decent guys. Oops.

 

 

 

 

[DrWatson]

 

That's because your points have ZERO merit. You have several successful comic sellers, with decades of combined experience, telling you your theories don't translate well into reality, and yet its them who are wrong?

 

Go home little boy. Its past your bed time.

 

1. Paying "9.6 GPA" or close to it, for a RAW book that a seller states is in 9.6 condition, and you think is in 9.6 (or better) condition, but comes back from CGC as a 9.2, or with missed resto, or has a flaw you both missed, is a great way to lose money. Potentially lots of it.

 

Go ahead. Disprove that. By all means.

 

Don't just sit there and act like an internet toughguy slinging 4th grade insults, Jive...disprove what I just said...if you can.

 

And here I thought you were one of the decent guys. Oops.

Of course they hit a few lemons. It's the law of averages.

 

We have all had turds, even Steve Borock. However, the hits far outweigh the misses if you have educated yourself and can grade to CGC standards. Picking books that are perfect is not very difficult. I am always surprised when people say they can't grade high grade books. They are the easiest to grade.

[joeypost]

 

That's because your points have ZERO merit. You have several successful comic sellers, with decades of combined experience, telling you your theories don't translate well into reality, and yet its them who are wrong?

 

Go home little boy. Its past your bed time.

 

1. Paying "9.6 GPA" or close to it, for a RAW book that a seller states is in 9.6 condition, and you think is in 9.6 (or better) condition, but comes back from CGC as a 9.2, or with missed resto, or has a flaw you both missed, is a great way to lose money. Potentially lots of it.

 

Go ahead. Disprove that. By all means.

 

Don't just sit there and act like an internet toughguy slinging 4th grade insults, Jive...disprove what I just said...if you can.

 

And here I thought you were one of the decent guys. Oops.

 

 

 

 

Mike and I are living proof. What more do you need?

 

Could it be that others are better at this than you are?

[G.A.tor]

No one...not McMiles nor anyone else...is above having their positions challenged. Unless...could it be....is McMiles....a SACRED COW?

Oh good Lord, can we dial the drama down just a tad? MCMiles is nothing but a stand up guy and as far as I know there are no sacred cows on this message board. You can disagree with whomever you like. However, there are plenty of individuals who deserve respect... and MCMiles is one of them.

 

BTW... it's MCMiles. Only his buddies can call him McMiles.

and he loves it when folks call him that

[DrWatson]

No one...not McMiles nor anyone else...is above having their positions challenged. Unless...could it be....is McMiles....a SACRED COW?

Oh good Lord, can we dial the drama down just a tad? MCMiles is nothing but a stand up guy and as far as I know there are no sacred cows on this message board. You can disagree with whomever you like. However, there are plenty of individuals who deserve respect... and MCMiles is one of them.

 

BTW... it's MCMiles. Only his buddies can call him McMiles.

and he loves it when folks call him that

I'm gonna start calling you Smokey.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

 

That's because your points have ZERO merit. You have several successful comic sellers, with decades of combined experience, telling you your theories don't translate well into reality, and yet its them who are wrong?

 

Go home little boy. Its past your bed time.

 

1. Paying "9.6 GPA" or close to it, for a RAW book that a seller states is in 9.6 condition, and you think is in 9.6 (or better) condition, but comes back from CGC as a 9.2, or with missed resto, or has a flaw you both missed, is a great way to lose money. Potentially lots of it.

 

Go ahead. Disprove that. By all means.

 

Don't just sit there and act like an internet toughguy slinging 4th grade insults, Jive...disprove what I just said...if you can.

 

And here I thought you were one of the decent guys. Oops.

 

 

Again, you're going right up until the edge, but aren't daring to step over. I get that. You don't want to be the guy who pays a massive premium for a book and CGC doesn't agree with you. And you're right, its a huge gamble. So is submitting ANY book to CGC that has never been there (or heck, even some books that have), or dealing with someone through the mail you've never dealt with before, or any one of thousands of risks we as comic collectors have to face every day when dealing with top dollar books (slab damage, postal incompetence, bad packaging, some schmoe listing a comparable book on eBay at a BIN half of what you just paid, etc. etc.)

 

The point I'm making is that if you do buy and sell enough, you're skills and savy will be good enough to overcome the occasional blunder. There is nothing wrong with using GPA as a pricing mechanism on any book, raw or graded. Its the only "real-time" pricing source in the entire industry. But with anything, you have to use it judiciously, and only in certain in situations.

 

Have I used it to price raw books? Not as a seller, but certainly as a buyer. Its the best tool out there. And when it comes to Gold, Andy is 100% right. I've paid well over GPA on some books when raw, and to be honest, if I was selling a particularily tough book raw...I would quote GPA if it was the only pricing reference around with which to justify a premium asking price.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Okey doke. :shrug:

 

There's no point in arguing when you want to make the exception into the rule.

 

There are 14 copies of Chamber of Chills #19 on the entire census.

 

If that's not "rare", I don't know what is (and yes, I know that the census doesn't represent all copies extant, but it's the only thing we have.)

 

So....thanks for the discussion.

 

Not sure what "exception" you are referring to, but you obviously don't collect gold and atom age.

 

Yes, obviousIy I don't collect Gold or Atom Age....

 

 

Because, of course, you must COLLECT something to have any knowledge about it.

 

People who do pay "market value". It doesn't matter if the book is raw, slabbed, PGXed, whatever. Generally speaking, they simply want the book in an acceptable grade (whatever that might be), regardless of the number on the label. It not "elitist" it's simply a function of the relative scarcity of the books.

 

The exception was already stated: "selling books between friends who you know and trust."

 

...and 14 copies on the census is NOT rare compared to similar classic horror covers.

 

14 copies of anything Atom or Golden Age on the census is rare.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

That's because your points have ZERO merit. You have several successful comic sellers, with decades of combined experience, telling you your theories don't translate well into reality, and yet its them who are wrong?

 

Go home little boy. Its past your bed time.

 

1. Paying "9.6 GPA" or close to it, for a RAW book that a seller states is in 9.6 condition, and you think is in 9.6 (or better) condition, but comes back from CGC as a 9.2, or with missed resto, or has a flaw you both missed, is a great way to lose money. Potentially lots of it.

 

Go ahead. Disprove that. By all means.

 

Don't just sit there and act like an internet toughguy slinging 4th grade insults, Jive...disprove what I just said...if you can.

 

And here I thought you were one of the decent guys. Oops.

 

 

 

 

Mike and I are living proof. What more do you need?

 

Could it be that others are better at this than you are?

 

What, you can't have a purely intellectual discussion? You have to bring some sort of personal machismo into this?

 

And, again...the point was ignored. CAN you BUY at or around GPA (for what the seller states the grade is) and make out because you think it will grade better, and it does?

 

Of course. No one is disputing that.

 

Is it still a risk? Yup.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

14 copies of anything Atom or Golden Age on the census is rare.

 

Rare by what definition? I've gotten so tired of seeing Bronze 9.6s advertised on eBay as "rare" that I've lost track of what it really means. Rare compared to Hulk # 181? I'll buy that. Rare compared to other Golden Age? Not by a long shot.

 

A book with $100 or more "book" value, that rarely appears for sale and has no census representation after CGC being in business for a decade is "rare" to me.

 

14 books? "Uncommon" may be a more appropriate designation.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Is it still a risk? Yup.

 

And no one is disputing that. We're just saying the Law of Averages works in your favor if you know what you're doing.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

That's because your points have ZERO merit. You have several successful comic sellers, with decades of combined experience, telling you your theories don't translate well into reality, and yet its them who are wrong?

 

Go home little boy. Its past your bed time.

 

1. Paying "9.6 GPA" or close to it, for a RAW book that a seller states is in 9.6 condition, and you think is in 9.6 (or better) condition, but comes back from CGC as a 9.2, or with missed resto, or has a flaw you both missed, is a great way to lose money. Potentially lots of it.

 

Go ahead. Disprove that. By all means.

 

Don't just sit there and act like an internet toughguy slinging 4th grade insults, Jive...disprove what I just said...if you can.

 

And here I thought you were one of the decent guys. Oops.

 

 

Again, you're going right up until the edge, but aren't daring to step over. I get that. You don't want to be the guy who pays a massive premium for a book and CGC doesn't agree with you. And you're right, its a huge gamble. So is submitting ANY book to CGC that has never been there (or heck, even some books that have), or dealing with someone through the mail you've never dealt with before, or any one of thousands of risks we as comic collectors have to face every day when dealing with top dollar books (slab damage, postal incompetence, bad packaging, some schmoe listing a comparable book on eBay at a BIN half of what you just paid, etc. etc.)

 

The point I'm making is that if you do buy and sell enough, you're skills and savy will be good enough to overcome the occasional blunder. There is nothing wrong with using GPA as a pricing mechanism on any book, raw or graded. Its the only "real-time" pricing source in the entire industry. But with anything, you have to use it judiciously, and only in certain in situations.

 

Have I used it to price raw books? Not as a seller, but certainly as a buyer. Its the best tool out there. And when it comes to Gold, Andy is 100% right. I've paid well over GPA on some books when raw, and to be honest, if I was selling a particularily tough book raw...I would quote GPA if it was the only pricing reference around with which to justify a premium asking price.

 

 

That's a much better answer than telling me to "go to bed little boy."

 

And I agree with you 100%.

 

But the exceptions still stand: buying from people you know and trust "at GPA" is different than buying from strangers, and rare, high grade books simply don't apply, because there's so little data to work with in the first place.

 

Both exceptions account for a FRACTION of the sales of comics in any given time period.

[october]

Okey doke. :shrug:

 

There's no point in arguing when you want to make the exception into the rule.

 

There are 14 copies of Chamber of Chills #19 on the entire census.

 

If that's not "rare", I don't know what is (and yes, I know that the census doesn't represent all copies extant, but it's the only thing we have.)

 

So....thanks for the discussion.

 

Not sure what "exception" you are referring to, but you obviously don't collect gold and atom age.

 

Yes, obviousIy I don't collect Gold or Atom Age....

 

 

Because, of course, you must COLLECT something to have any knowledge about it.

 

People who do pay "market value". It doesn't matter if the book is raw, slabbed, PGXed, whatever. Generally speaking, they simply want the book in an acceptable grade (whatever that might be), regardless of the number on the label. It not "elitist" it's simply a function of the relative scarcity of the books.

 

The exception was already stated: "selling books between friends who you know and trust."

 

...and 14 copies on the census is NOT rare compared to similar classic horror covers.

 

14 copies of anything Atom or Golden Age on the census is rare.

 

Believe whatever you wish. Be sure to regale us with tales of classic cover gold and atom age books that you bought raw for a fraction of GPA....because, as you said, a slab adds so much value.

[blazingbob]

With more and more of you appearing in the show before the general public maybe I should give you the dealer handbook.

 

Clearly it's years of frustration at not getting those good deals for yourself that has driven you mad with anger. Doesn't matter that I've worked for years establishing those relationships, paid thousands of dollars in table fees, spent a lot of money with the guy or maybe work my butt off digging for books. Like I said rationalize all you want but if you are buying and selling comics to fund adding books to your collection you are a dealer. If you are running around before the show buying books that I would have bought you are a dealer and a competitor. Do you really expect me to be happy with you showing off those "great buys" to me? Especially when I see them up on the boards for sale? Why exactly did I buy a booth? Costs me over $1K for every show. You're in for free with no overhead. Remind me again why I'm ok with this? Spin it all you want. If you want to make money on "my ticket/badge" then how about proposing we split the books? Make it a win/win versus a no win situation for me. Remember, this is my business, not my hobby.

 

If you are buying books to press and upgrade you are a dealer. If you are spinning that book like a pizza pie and viewing it with a jewelers loop than I suspect you are looking at it's profit potential than if it's accurately graded. I've seen enough of you to tell the difference. You all ask the same questions. Again, tell me "It's for my collection".

 

Here's some dealer courtesy from the Bob Storms handbook.

 

Looking at books at a dealers booth before the show opens.

 

Scenario #1 - If I have spoken to a dealer before a upcoming show or the night before about looking at "new stuff" then by all means that pretty much covers all those boxes containing that "new stuff". If you like what you see by looking over my shoulder and want to look also you ask the dealer selling the books as well as the guy looking at them if you can look after he is done with each box. Reason is he might have another dealer that is supposed to come look at them. Looking at a box that dealer or I hasn't looked in will result in a much heated response from me if you did it. My Harley fights at shows are generally the ones covering this scenario because Harley doesn't feel he has to ask to lift lids and look into boxes.

 

Scenario #2 - Some dealers need a little time to setup. If a dealer tells you to come back in a 1/2 hour before you can look through the wall boxes or new stuff than you have to rely on the dealer to prevent another one from going before you. If the dealer jumps you while you are waiting than you probably need to say something to the seller on why he can look and you can't. Harley and I have fought over this one.

 

Scenario #3 - Regular inventory boxes or wall boxes pretty much covers the box he is in. Not the one in the back, to the left or the one to right. If he is in Wall box 1 and you ask the dealer to see Wall box 2, the dealer says yes, then he's S**t outta luck. Sometimes you pick the right box, sometimes you don't.

 

Scenario #3 is pretty much where you see Dealer feeding frenzy's. It's all for one and one for all.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

No one...not McMiles nor anyone else...is above having their positions challenged. Unless...could it be....is McMiles....a SACRED COW?

Oh good Lord, can we dial the drama down just a tad? MCMiles is nothing but a stand up guy and as far as I know there are no sacred cows on this message board. You can disagree with whomever you like. However, there are plenty of individuals who deserve respect... and MCMiles is one of them.

 

BTW... it's MCMiles. Only his buddies can call him McMiles.

 

Oh, relax. I was giving Jive grief, not MCMiles (my apologies for lazily not capitalizing the "C".) I was in no way attempting to disrespect MCMiles in any way.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Believe whatever you wish.

 

Likewise.

[Green]

Moo.

[DrWatson]

No one...not McMiles nor anyone else...is above having their positions challenged. Unless...could it be....is McMiles....a SACRED COW?

Oh good Lord, can we dial the drama down just a tad? MCMiles is nothing but a stand up guy and as far as I know there are no sacred cows on this message board. You can disagree with whomever you like. However, there are plenty of individuals who deserve respect... and MCMiles is one of them.

 

BTW... it's MCMiles. Only his buddies can call him McMiles.

 

Oh, relax. I was giving Jive grief, not MCMiles (my apologies for lazily not capitalizing the "C".) I was in no way attempting to disrespect MCMiles in any way.

I'll relax when you relax, oh Grand Pooh-bah of the Verbose.

[DrWatson]

Moo.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

That's because your points have ZERO merit. You have several successful comic sellers, with decades of combined experience, telling you your theories don't translate well into reality, and yet its them who are wrong?

 

Go home little boy. Its past your bed time.

 

1. Paying "9.6 GPA" or close to it, for a RAW book that a seller states is in 9.6 condition, and you think is in 9.6 (or better) condition, but comes back from CGC as a 9.2, or with missed resto, or has a flaw you both missed, is a great way to lose money. Potentially lots of it.

 

Go ahead. Disprove that. By all means.

 

Don't just sit there and act like an internet toughguy slinging 4th grade insults, Jive...disprove what I just said...if you can.

 

And here I thought you were one of the decent guys. Oops.

Of course they hit a few lemons. It's the law of averages.

 

We have all had turds, even Steve Borock. However, the hits far outweigh the misses if you have educated yourself and can grade to CGC standards. Picking books that are perfect is not very difficult. I am always surprised when people say they can't grade high grade books. They are the easiest to grade.

 

That's all I ever said. It's a gamble I dislike taking. I'd much rather pay "going eBay rate" (just as a place to start) and then have the book end up in a high grade slab because I know what I'm looking at. And you're 100% correct, the higher the grade (noun), the easier to grade (verb.)

 

Personally, I think the payoff is much bigger.

 

The 9.6 Bats #232 that I posted? I bought it several months ago for $75 as a VF/NM.

 

It's just an example.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Is it still a risk? Yup.

 

And no one is disputing that. We're just saying the Law of Averages works in your favor if you know what you're doing.

 

I'm not disputing that, either.

 

It looks, then, like we're all in complete agreement. Why are we arguing?