Flipping, a mortal sin?

[RockMyAmadeus]

Let's be perfectly frank: the prices achieved on slabbed books are solely and only because they are slabbed. Remove the slab, and the prices disappear.

 

Nonsense. The amount of slabs that garner a significant premium over a raw copy is actually fairly small. Virtually any non key bronze, copper or modern in 9.2 or under brings the same prices as their raw counterparts. Likewise, for many gold and atom age books, the slab is completely incidental. GPA is a useful tool in determining the true market value of these books, as buyers don't recognize the slab as adding much, if anything, to the deal.

 

We are talking about premiums for high grade books, not low grade (relative to the age) copies with little to no demand.

 

I wouldn't have thought it necessary to mention that, as I guess it should have been a given, especially considering the examples, but I'll qualify now: the premiums paid for uber high grade books of any kind are solely because of the slab.

 

We certainly weren't talking about 9.2 copper or modern books, which have little value slabbed OR unslabbed.

 

As for lower to mid-grade Silver, Gold, and Atom, I'll just ask you to prove your assertion that the slab is incidental and meaningless when it comes to prices achieved (not that I completely disagree with the basic premise....I just want evidence.)

 

 

[october]

As for lower to mid-grade Silver, Gold, and Atom, I'll just ask you to prove your assertion that the slab is incidental and meaningless when it comes to prices achieved (not that I completely disagree with the basic premise....I just want evidence.)

 

 

Sure. Here is a recent example. I sold a raw Chamber of Chills 19, using GPA, to an Overstreet advisor. Based on the posts following his "I'll take it" I could have sold it two or three times over at that price point. Guide on classic gold and atom age is a joke and GPA is one of the only good price indicators out there for books of that type, be they slabbed or raw.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3263820#Post3263820

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

No, not fixed price sales where the seller sets the price, and the sale is between friends who know and trust each other in a professional manner. And not for uber rare file copies that never show up on the market, either.

 

Auctions. Places where the bidders set the price, not the sellers, and where the buyers and sellers don't necessarily have an established relationship.

 

If that book ends up slabbed as an 8.5 and then sold, do you really think it's going to sell for $300? Highly doubtful. The slab will add quite a bit to it, based partly on the 8.0 GPA. You graded it 8.5, but based your price on the 8.0 GPA (mainly because there was no 8.5 that was current, but then that really illustrates the point)...for many Atom age books, there's a large price difference between slabbed 8.0 and slabbed 8.5, especially if we're talking a tiny handful of highest census books.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Among friends who know and trust each other, it's very easy to "ASK" GPA or "QUOTE" GPA and get very near that, especially for rare, high(er) grade books.

 

That was never my point, or the point of people who also disdain "quoting" GPA prices for raw books.

[Transplant]

The original point was about ASKING GPA prices as a seller...not as a buyer.

Actually, it wasn't. Mschmidt said that something contentious was sellers "quoting and using GPA for raw books."

 

Um. "Quoting and using GPA for raw books" and "ASKING GPA prices" for raw books is different...other than in a purely technical, semantical sort of way...how?

 

I'll paraphrase what I've said here before. I sometimes quote GPA on books b/c the Guide is not relevant to that book at that grade. That could be b/c of scarcity or that is a high grade book. Personally, I could price the book at the same price I would otherwise and not mention GPA but that seems silly to omit the basis for my price. I'm not saying that I would price a book AT GPA. Rather, I reference it.

 

Oh, come on.

 

Really? Seriously?

 

Fine...I revise my point to say "QUOTING" GPA prices as a foundation for negotiation, rather than "ASKING" GPA prices as a foundation for negotiation. Because, you know, that's ever so much different.

 

 

Actually, "Asking GPA" has the connotation that the price asked is the same as the GPA price. "Quoting GPA" to me, is the same as if I quoted Overstreet. It's a reference. I understand that people have an issue with even quoting GPA as a reference for raw books. But I don't see the problem as it merely gives the buyer a piece of information. On the times I've done it, I've deducted my estimate of what it will cost to slab plus some unknown % that I figure is a risk that the buyer is taking by not buying an already slabbed copy.

[RockMyAmadeus]

The original point was about ASKING GPA prices as a seller...not as a buyer.

Actually, it wasn't. Mschmidt said that something contentious was sellers "quoting and using GPA for raw books."

 

Um. "Quoting and using GPA for raw books" and "ASKING GPA prices" for raw books is different...other than in a purely technical, semantical sort of way...how?

 

I'll paraphrase what I've said here before. I sometimes quote GPA on books b/c the Guide is not relevant to that book at that grade. That could be b/c of scarcity or that is a high grade book. Personally, I could price the book at the same price I would otherwise and not mention GPA but that seems silly to omit the basis for my price. I'm not saying that I would price a book AT GPA. Rather, I reference it.

 

Oh, come on.

 

Really? Seriously?

 

Fine...I revise my point to say "QUOTING" GPA prices as a foundation for negotiation, rather than "ASKING" GPA prices as a foundation for negotiation. Because, you know, that's ever so much different.

 

 

Actually, "Asking GPA" has the connotation that the price asked is the same as the GPA price. "Quoting GPA" to me, is the same as if I quoted Overstreet. It's a reference. I understand that people have an issue with even quoting GPA as a reference for raw books. But I don't see the problem as it merely gives the buyer a piece of information. On the times I've done it, I've deducted my estimate of what it will cost to slab plus some unknown % that I figure is a risk that the buyer is taking by not buying an already slabbed copy.

 

I think we're slicing two halves of the same apple. I do not disagree with anything you have said, I just think it's virtually the same thing: they're both starting points for negotiation, one just a bit stronger than the other.

 

Fair?

[Transplant]

Among friends who know and trust each other, it's very easy to "ASK" GPA or "QUOTE" GPA and get very near that, especially for rare, high(er) grade books.

 

That was never my point, or the point of people who also disdain "quoting" GPA prices for raw books.

It sounded like exactly the point you were making. I.e., I took your posts to mean that GPA should never be used when dealing with a raw book. And October's example of a scarce book is just one of many where OPG is not relevant b/c it trails the market. Think of the many books that OPG has overpriced to the market and how a buyer would scoff at a seller quoting it.

[G.A.tor]

if I sell a comic, the owner can flip it if they want...the only time I would be "peeved" is if the book was sold below market as a result of the "for my own collection, I will never sell, yada yada yada"... in other words, if I asked $x for a book and someone can immediately sell it for $X+ profit, good for them...but, if I asked $x for a book, and someone played on the heart strings and got it for less, then flip, that is a problem (to me)

[RockMyAmadeus]

Among friends who know and trust each other, it's very easy to "ASK" GPA or "QUOTE" GPA and get very near that, especially for rare, high(er) grade books.

 

That was never my point, or the point of people who also disdain "quoting" GPA prices for raw books.

It sounded like exactly the point you were making. I.e., I took your posts to mean that GPA should never be used when dealing with a raw book. And October's example of a scarce book is just one of many where OPG is not relevant b/c it trails the market. Think of the many books that OPG has overpriced to the market and how a buyer would scoff at a seller quoting it.

 

But I'm not talking about OPG at all. I know....truly....how far behind OPG is on so many, many books.

 

And as always, there are exceptions to every rule. The rule that GPA should not be used for quoting raw books has an exception: when it's between friends who know and trust each other.

 

It also has another exception: when dealing with very rare, high grade books that rarely come up for sale.

 

Those two exceptions do not invalidate "the rule."

 

Tell me...how often are those two exceptions in effect, relative to all transactions involving comic books in a given time period.....?

 

[trmoore54]

if I sell a comic, the owner can flip it if they want...the only time I would be "peeved" is if the book was sold below market as a result of the "for my own collection, I will never sell, yada yada yada"... in other words, if I asked $x for a book and someone can immediately sell it for $X+ profit, good for them...but, if I asked $x for a book, and someone played on the heart strings and got it for less, then flip, that is a problem (to me)

 

+1

 

Purchase a book at the seller's ask price with the and it's all yours (I know, I know I'm repeating what already has been said).

 

But weedling down the price with any kind of implication via PM that I just gotta have this book to fill this hole and I can only afford to pay suchandsuch etc etc and then flipping that book, especially if it's in a short amount of time, is foul play. At minimum, if you had a change of heart or had some circumstance financially pushing you into selling stuff to generate cash, then you should offer it back to the seller at the purchase price first...at minimum!

[october]

there's a large price difference between slabbed 8.0 and slabbed 8.5, especially if we're talking a tiny handful of highest census books.

 

 

No, there really isn't...and File Copies are far from rare. Furthermore, that exact issue raw brings the same on eBay. I have seen it happen multiple times. In fact, I have seen raw 6.0 copies bring $200+. Believe whatever you want, but gold and atom collectors simply want the book. Silly hair splitting between 8.0 and 8.5 does not often translate into differences in price.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Okey doke. :shrug:

 

There's no point in arguing when you want to make the exception into the rule.

 

There are 14 copies of Chamber of Chills #19 on the entire census.

 

If that's not "rare", I don't know what is (and yes, I know that the census doesn't represent all copies extant, but it's the only thing we have.)

 

So....thanks for the discussion.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

 

But not entirely true, not all books I buy are bought for re-sale. I can be a flipper/dealer and collector at the same time. Believe it or not.

 

Again, the point is GPA information is used to buy raw books by people that are confident in their ability to grade, or at least predict the CGC grade.

 

The original point was about ASKING GPA prices as a seller...not as a buyer.

 

I would never pay, say, $1200 for, let's throw a random book out there, an Amazing Spiderman #129...that I THINK may grade out at 9.4 (which is right around current GPA for a 9.4) even if I am positive the book will grade out a 9.4.

 

The only way I'm paying "GPA" for anything is if it's A. already slabbed, or B. I think the potential grade is SOLIDLY above the "GPA level" that I'm buying it (which, of course, now renders that particular GPA discussion moot.)

 

I'm a very good grader. But that doesn't mean CGC is going to agree with my grade.

 

The only way it works...as Beyonder pointed out...is if you're sure the book will grade out higher than you expect, or the seller is "quoting" a lower "GPA grade" than you think it is (ie, quoting a GPA 9.0 price because he/she thinks it's 9.0, rather than the 9.4 you think it is.)

 

Let's be perfectly frank: the prices achieved on slabbed books are solely and only because they are slabbed. Remove the slab, and the prices disappear. There are many reasons for this, which I won't go into now, but suffice it to say, that's the way it is.

 

An FF #112 would not have sold for $24,000...in any incarnation...had it not been for the slab. Even if it was pronounced the "mintiest copy in existence" by the most respected names in the hobby, it would NEVER have sold for $24K without the slab (or at least until inflation caught up to it.)

 

And yet, even now, I'll bet there are some dealers who have heard about this, and jacked up the prices of their raw copies of FF #112 because of that sale.

 

Therefore, opportunists who quote slabbed prices for unslabbed books are just that: opportunists. Until and if those people start a grading company that has the same level of market support and trust as CGC, that won't change.

 

 

Yeah, I know. I read all of the posts.

 

COI, asked if I would pay GPA for his unslabbed books. I am pretty sure he asked that in order to back up his stance that GPA should not be used to sell raw books. The answer is "I do it every day"

 

It only makes sense that if I am willing to buy raw books based on GPA information, then I don't have a problem with people quoting GPA when they sell books. If I believe in their grading, I don't have a problem paying a price based on GPA information. The concept is the same.

 

Some of us can buy the comic books for what grade they are wether they are inside or outside of the slab. Some of us don't need some one to hold our hand every step of the way. Beyond that, some of us know how to use common sense and caution when dealing with certain books or certain people.

 

And some of us understand the realities of a market that is so razor thin when it comes to quarter grade differences that we don't make the mistake of buying raw items at "GPA" that we intend to have slabbed and sell. If that raw book that you just bought at the 9.6 GPA turns out to be a 9.0 because of a flaw BOTH you AND the seller missed (quite easy), or even slight resto, or even just CGC not agreeing with either of your grades, then you've potentially lost a ton of money.

 

I go to Vegas to gamble, not local comic cons. Call it "hand holding" if you wish.

 

Buying for yourself? Whole different ball of wax. You can use whatever you want, even Chuckles' prices, because it's then a matter of personal taste.

 

Oppurtunists? Seriously. I really don't need to defend myself here, because, as I've already stated, I don't quote GPA when selling raw books,

 

So then my comment had nothing to do with you. (thumbs u

 

You are seriously out of your mind.

 

One of the last persons that you need to teach your industry protocol to is McMiles.

 

Yeah, I don't think it's possible for some of you to have a discussion without being insulting. It's like anybody who disagrees with your narrow worldview must be "seriously out of their mind." Not "well, here's where I think you're wrong"...or "well, ok, but have you thought about this?" No, it's straight to the insults. Amazing.

 

No one...not McMiles nor anyone else...is above having their positions challenged. Unless...could it be....is McMiles....a SACRED COW?

 

(thumbs u

 

And nothing I said is incorrect.

 

Mike isn't a sacred cow, he just knows what he is doing and makes a lot of coin doing it. Reading your posts is hysterical because its kinda like the apprentice telling the Master "how its done". Too funny.

 

 

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

 

Believe whatever you want, but gold and atom collectors simply want the book. Silly hair splitting between 8.0 and 8.5 does not often translate into differences in price.

 

 

1000% correct.

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

Mike isn't a sacred cow, he just knows what he is doing and makes a lot of coin doing it. Reading your posts is hysterical because its kinda like the apprentice telling the Master "how its done". Too funny.

 

 

He's not a sacred cow...except he IS a sacred cow...

 

Rrrrrriiiiight......

 

 

Like I said...no one knows everything there is to know. And my points are still valid.

 

(I notice, no one's bothered to consider their merits...just tell me how much of an "apprentice" I am, though you know next to nothing about me. )

[RockMyAmadeus]

and people call ME "elitist"....

 

[Vtcomics]

The point is GPA is used to buy raw books by a lot of people.

 

I understand that. I also understand that there's no FUNDS to be made by buying a raw NM book for 9.4 GPA if the book slabs out at 9.4

 

 

Don't make that mistake. If you're incapable of making the distinction, or absorbing the risk, then don't do it.

 

 

You stated that you're willing to pay GPA prices for raw books. The reality is that your willing to pay 9.4 GPA prices for books that will slab out higher than 9.4

 

That's all I saying.

Who wouldn't.

 

But not entirely true, not all books I buy are bought for re-sale. I can be a flipper/dealer and collector at the same time. Believe it or not.

 

Again, the point is GPA information is used to buy raw books by people that are confident in their ability to grade, or at least predict the CGC grade.

 

Well said. As most boardies know, I buy and flip ALL THE TIME. It's not always intentional; another opportunity comes along and something has to go; I don't have deep enough pockets to be able to hang onto every book; sure wish I could! Almost everyone flips at some point; it's part of the hobby folks. Sometimes I lose money on the flip, sometimes I make money and sometimes I simply break even. Big deal. Read Borock's comments on this subject posted some months ago.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

 

Mike isn't a sacred cow, he just knows what he is doing and makes a lot of coin doing it. Reading your posts is hysterical because its kinda like the apprentice telling the Master "how its done". Too funny.

 

 

He's not a sacred cow...except he IS a sacred cow...

 

Rrrrrriiiiight......

 

 

Like I said...no one knows everything there is to know. And my points are still valid.

 

(I notice, no one's bothered to consider their merits...just tell me how much of an "apprentice" I am, though you know next to nothing about me. )

 

That's because your points have ZERO merit. You have several successful comic sellers, with decades of combined experience, telling you your theories don't translate well into reality, and yet its them who are wrong?

 

Go home little boy. Its past your bed time.

[DrWatson]

No one...not McMiles nor anyone else...is above having their positions challenged. Unless...could it be....is McMiles....a SACRED COW?

Oh good Lord, can we dial the drama down just a tad? MCMiles is nothing but a stand up guy and as far as I know there are no sacred cows on this message board. You can disagree with whomever you like. However, there are plenty of individuals who deserve respect... and MCMiles is one of them.

 

BTW... it's MCMiles. Only his buddies can call him McMiles.

[october]

Okey doke. :shrug:

 

There's no point in arguing when you want to make the exception into the rule.

 

There are 14 copies of Chamber of Chills #19 on the entire census.

 

If that's not "rare", I don't know what is (and yes, I know that the census doesn't represent all copies extant, but it's the only thing we have.)

 

So....thanks for the discussion.

 

Not sure what "exception" you are referring to, but you obviously don't collect gold and atom age. People who do pay "market value". It doesn't matter if the book is raw, slabbed, PGXed, whatever. Generally speaking, they simply want the book in an acceptable grade (whatever that might be), regardless of the number on the label. It not "elitist" it's simply a function of the relative scarcity of the books.

 

...and 14 copies on the census is NOT rare compared to similar classic horror covers.