Manufactured Gold

[Ze-man]

yea well isn't cgc a trained eye?

 

Silly element..

 

My point was that even though it was the first time I took a book apart and re assembled it. You would be hard pressed to say one way or the other if the book was disassembled , or not. It looks like any other low/mid grade comic book in my collection.

 

But those who know what to look for(a trained eye) could easily tell I did something to the book.

 

Although If done carefully by an experienced craftsman,on the right candidate book, with proper tools (other then just a fingernail). I dont see how, trained or not somebody could tell 100% of the time that the staples were removed, and replaced.

 

That was why I tried it, to see what it looks like firsthand. If anything it taught me tell tale signs to look for when staples are pulled out, and re-inserted poorly.

 

Ze-

[MasterChief]

This next case presents a rather interesting study. Though there are several examination points on the piece which provoke quizzical thought, I'd like to preface a few that I consider to be intriguing prior to presentation. They are: 

• (1) Removal, or perhaps subsequent overlooking, of restoration that was once identified as being professional color touch.
   
  (2) Application of treatment procedures that may have created or compounded defects, or were intentionally performed to off-set/mitigate defects that could have possibly led to grade degradation as a consequence of destructive restoration removal.
   
  (3) Assumption of risk on the part of a buyer in purchasing a restored copy without the benefit of a hands-on examination to determine restoration quantity and quality for the purpose of establishing removal candidacy.
  

While these observations, or a combination of the aforementioned blended with other possibilities, may have led to the current conditional state of the specimen, there is one which I found to be quite evident, that being: the application of pressing technique and the incredibly short turnaround time between public sales.

 

***************

 

Human Torch #7

 

Certified as a restored copy with an apparent grade notation of 6.5 and a text description stating “small amount of color touch on cover", this copy of Human Torch #7 with its slight spine roll, lower-left corner edge blunting, discolored staples and rust migration, listed at auction on March 6, 2003. Described fully within a paragraph emphasizing a “potential Best Buy”, seven bidders competed for the item with the final winning bid of $632 being placed by mail/fax.

 

Three-months later the same copy appeared at auction again with a universal grade of 7.5 and without any label qualifiers. Described with just a simple one-line sentence noting its “unbelievable off-white pages”, the manufactured copy harvested a 160% profit for its consigner as 11 bidders drove the final price to $1667.

 

The new version of Human Torch #7 (0069385003) was graded on May 13, 2003. The book currently ranks third out of eleven universal copies certified by CGC.

 

Certification/Resale Provenance:

 

 

Human Torch #7 Apparent (6.5) Slight (P)

Human Torch #7 (7.5)

 

Images:

 

 

 

[Harvey Dude]

That certainly is a quck turnaround to receive the book, perform the prep work for regrading,

and then meet the auction deadline for submissions.

Do you think the color touch was missed or just removed from the book?

[FFB]

That certainly is a quck turnaround to receive the book, perform the prep work for regrading,

and then meet the auction deadline for submissions.

Do you think the color touch was missed or just removed from the book?

 

You can see where it was scraped away along the top edge of the book.

[rjpb]

That is one rusty lower staple - how does that book rate a 7.5?

It's barely a 6.5 in it's "unrestored" condition

[comic_lot]

That is one rusty lower staple - how does that book rate a 7.5?

It's barely a 6.5 in it's "unrestored" condition

 

 

Below is a link to a Bat #47 which appears much nicer, with the major visible defect rusted staples, that got a 7.0 from CGC. According to Overstreet Grading Guide (I'm quoting from first edition) VF (75-89) allows "staples may show some discoloration"; Fine (55-74) allows "staples may show moderate discoloration"; and VG (35-54) "staples may be discolored with rust migration."

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/sho...rue#Post1433403

[namralos]

Was ALL of the color-touch removed from HT #7? I'd say further work was done!

 

A touched-up piece just above the lower staple still remains.

Some marks to the left of the "Plus 20 pages" box are visible in the first photo and missing in the second.

Scuff marks to the left of Schomburg's signature and under the soldier's armband have been removed.

A mark in the brown area in the lower left corner has been removed.

 

The rusty staples appear to have been replaced, although rust marks remain.

The spine also "creases differently," indicating possible pressing/"roll removal".

 

My overall assessment is that some fine restoration has been applied to the book -- first to remove some more obvious resto and second to apply further, less-noticeable restoration to the book to improve its appearance. IMO, these gentle touches were responsible for the book's bump from FN+ to VF-.

[skybolt]

At the very least, the top staple looks either cleaned or replaced.

[FFB]

At the very least, the top staple looks either cleaned or replaced.

 

How are you able to say that? You can't even see the top staple now that the spine roll has been removed. It could very well be the same staple.

[FFB]

Was ALL of the color-touch removed from HT #7? I'd say further work was done!

 

A touched-up piece just above the lower staple still remains.

Some marks to the left of the "Plus 20 pages" box are visible in the first photo and missing in the second.

Scuff marks to the left of Schomburg's signature and under the soldier's armband have been removed.

A mark in the brown area in the lower left corner has been removed.

 

The rusty staples appear to have been replaced, although rust marks remain.

The spine also "creases differently," indicating possible pressing/"roll removal".

 

My overall assessment is that some fine restoration has been applied to the book -- first to remove some more obvious resto and second to apply further, less-noticeable restoration to the book to improve its appearance. IMO, these gentle touches were responsible for the book's bump from FN+ to VF-.

 

I think the book had spine roll removed and other bends were pressed out, but there is no added color touch visible on that book. I don't know what you're looking at, but I see none.

[skybolt]

At the very least, the top staple looks either cleaned or replaced.

 

How are you able to say that? You can't even see the top staple now that the spine roll has been removed. It could very well be the same staple.

 

Scott, look very closely at the right scan. The portion of the staple that's showing looks very clean compared to the before picture, which is completely rusted.

[mica]

At the very least, the top staple looks either cleaned or replaced.

 

How are you able to say that? You can't even see the top staple now that the spine roll has been removed. It could very well be the same staple.

Calm down shortcake. Look at it closely.

[Red Hook]

It's not easy to make out, but because I an locate the oval patch of rust migration lying underneath the staple on both books.....it certainly appears (although not conclusively) that the staple in the second book is shinier. You can see it side on.

 

 

 

 

[burntboy]

 

The rusty staples appear to have been replaced, although rust marks remain.

The spine also "creases differently," indicating possible pressing/"roll removal".

 

My overall assessment is that some fine restoration has been applied to the book -- first to remove some more obvious resto and second to apply further, less-noticeable restoration to the book to improve its appearance. IMO, these gentle touches were responsible for the book's bump from FN+ to VF-.

 

IMHO, this portion of your assessment is dead on...........

 

and IF that's the case, then this book had disassembled pressing as well as replaced/cleaned staples performed and both were missed...........the resto removal would likely not have been as discernible.

 

personally, i think it was a fine job and money well-spent, BUT the book should be in a purple/green label. even if the disassembled pressing could not be detected, the rust migration to the paper should have been a dead giveaway that work had been performed on the staples...........

[Filter81]

 

The rusty staples appear to have been replaced, although rust marks remain.

The spine also "creases differently," indicating possible pressing/"roll removal".

 

My overall assessment is that some fine restoration has been applied to the book -- first to remove some more obvious resto and second to apply further, less-noticeable restoration to the book to improve its appearance. IMO, these gentle touches were responsible for the book's bump from FN+ to VF-.

 

IMHO, this portion of your assessment is dead on...........

 

and IF that's the case, then this book had disassembled pressing as well as replaced/cleaned staples performed and both were missed ...........the resto removal would likely not have been as discernible.

 

personally, i think it was a fine job and money well-spent, BUT the book should be in a purple/green label. even if the disassembled pressing could not be detected, the rust migration to the paper should have been a dead giveaway that work had been performed on the staples...........

 

There is no restored 6.5 on the census anymore. To remove a book from the census, CGC must have the label. If they have the label, they also have the barcode number and the grader notes. Whatever has or has not been done and whatever the reasons for giving the book the grade and label it was given, I don't think its possible that CGC missed anything that was done to this book.

 

Since I have seen books in green labels with the notations "Staples Replaced" and "Staples cleaned", I am hoping what this means is you guys are mistaken and the staples on this book were neither cleaned or replaced.

[burntboy]

 

The rusty staples appear to have been replaced, although rust marks remain.

The spine also "creases differently," indicating possible pressing/"roll removal".

 

My overall assessment is that some fine restoration has been applied to the book -- first to remove some more obvious resto and second to apply further, less-noticeable restoration to the book to improve its appearance. IMO, these gentle touches were responsible for the book's bump from FN+ to VF-.

 

IMHO, this portion of your assessment is dead on...........

 

and IF that's the case, then this book had disassembled pressing as well as replaced/cleaned staples performed and both were missed ...........the resto removal would likely not have been as discernible.

 

personally, i think it was a fine job and money well-spent, BUT the book should be in a purple/green label. even if the disassembled pressing could not be detected, the rust migration to the paper should have been a dead giveaway that work had been performed on the staples...........

 

There is no restored 6.5 on the census anymore. To remove a book from the census, CGC must have the label. If they have the label, they also have the barcode number and the grader notes. Whatever has or has not been done and whatever the reasons for giving the book the grade and label it was given, I don't think its possible that CGC missed anything that was done to this book.

 

Since I have seen books in green labels with the notations "Staples Replaced" and "Staples cleaned", I am hoping what this means is you guys are mistaken and the staples on this book were neither cleaned or replaced.

 

Filter - i hear ya, but as some have said in the past, the labels MAY have been presented to CGC after the book had been regraded. perhaps in a burst of conscience, the resubmitter decided to clean out the original book from the census. nothing much the boys from Sarasota can do at that point............

[Filter81]

Filter - i hear ya, but as some have said in the past, the labels MAY have been presented to CGC after the book had been regraded. perhaps in a burst of conscience, the resubmitter decided to clean out the original book from the census. nothing much the boys from Sarasota can do at that point............

 

I disagree. If we were talking about one or two isolated incidents, I would agree with you wholeheartedly. But there is a very clear pattern here.

 

1) Book sells through Heritage

 

2) Work is done to the book. (Whether its cleaning, pressing, or more)

 

3) Book is submitted to CGC and placed in a blue label in a higher grade. (Sometimes 15 or 20 books at a time from the same submitter)

 

4) Book is resold through Heritage and the original CGC barcode is removed from the census.

 

These examples Masterchief has been showing us are far from isolated incidents. (The examples listed in this thread may be some of the best examples out there, but anyone could easily pull up Heritage's Archives and come up with 100 additional examples that fit this pattern by tomorrow if they had the time and inclination to do so.)

 

If there is someone out there who is routinely sneaking restoration past CGC, I find it impossible to believe that this individual is then submitting the labels to CGC, admitting what he has done. And if this were happening, then shame on CGC for allowing this individual to continue to submit books to them in the first place. (Remember, some of these examples go back to 2002 and some are as recent as '05/'06.)

 

I don't have a great eye for this sort of thing, and I'm not making any claims that something was done to this book that should prevent it from being in a blue label.

 

What I am saying, is that if you talk to the people at CGC or read Steve's response earlier in this thread, CGC isn't saying "hey, we made a few mistakes and some books got by us that should've been considered restored or at least qualified". They are defending (and perhaps rightfully so) their decisions to put these books in blue labels.

 

As I said, I will leave all the details regarding what may or may not have been done to what book to someone else. But I don't think there is any chance whatsoever that CGC just flat out missed the work done on these books.

 

CGC is saying that these books are in blue labels because they deserve to be in blue labels. Whether or not these books belong in blue labels or not, everyone's opinions will be different and open for debate. But I don't think the idea that CGC is just flat out missing the work on these books is even a possibility anymore.

[nearmint]

If there is someone out there who is routinely sneaking restoration past CGC, I find it impossible to believe that this individual is then submitting the labels to CGC, admitting what he has done. And if this were happening, then shame on CGC for allowing this individual to continue to submit books to them in the first place.

 

Matt Nelson returns labels to CGC on books he's worked on, but not immediately. As a result, CGC wouldnt know who submitted the book to Matt to have work done, so there's no one for CGC to ban from submitting. They can't exactly assume it was the person who initially had the book slabbed, as if that person was likely to have the book restored, they logically would have done it prior to submitting it to CGC.

[FFB]

At the very least, the top staple looks either cleaned or replaced.

 

How are you able to say that? You can't even see the top staple now that the spine roll has been removed. It could very well be the same staple.

 

Scott, look very closely at the right scan. The portion of the staple that's showing looks very clean compared to the before picture, which is completely rusted.

 

I think what you're looking at is a scanner artifact. No part of the top staple is visible in the front or back scan of the blue label book.

[Filter81]

If there is someone out there who is routinely sneaking restoration past CGC, I find it impossible to believe that this individual is then submitting the labels to CGC, admitting what he has done. And if this were happening, then shame on CGC for allowing this individual to continue to submit books to them in the first place.

 

Matt Nelson returns labels to CGC on books he's worked on, but not immediately. As a result, CGC wouldnt know who submitted the book to Matt to have work done, so there's no one for CGC to ban from submitting. They can't exactly assume it was the person who initially had the book slabbed, as if that person was likely to have the book restored, they logically would have done it prior to submitting it to CGC.

 

If Matt Nelson is routinely restoring books, and CGC's intention is to give these books purple and green labels but they are getting put in blue labels because CGC is missing the work and Matt Nelson isn't sending the labels in to CGC in enough time, then I would think that CGC and Matt have a close enough relationship that CGC could call Matt up and request he submit the labels to CGC as soon as possible. If Matt were to refuse, I see no reason why CGC shouldn't publicly denounce what he's doing the same way they did when Ewert was trying to pass off restored books as unrestored, and the same way they did when Comic-Keys was doing the same.

 

I stand by my earlier post that at this point I don't believe there is any reason to assume CGC is missing the work done on these books. And if they are, and they know who's doing it, it would be completely inexcusable for them to have taken no action to prevent it over the last 4 years.

 

(Again though, this post is not meant to be anti-CGC or anti-Matt Nelson, because I don't believe that is what is going on.) I believe CGC's position is that these books are in blue labels because CGC feels they deserve to be in blue labels. Not because restoration is routinely being missed.