Manufactured Gold

[Foolkiller]

I've disagreed with aspects of the NOD and its founding principal of "mandatory disclosure". But at the end of the day, it will be the market at large, not me, not anyone here alone on the boards, that will determine the debate on pressing.

 

Of course, pressing is but just one aspect among many of the NOD and its guiding principles regarding disclosure.

 

Yes, I know -- but pressing is the one we disagree on.

 

Perfectly fine, but the impression given is that it is pressing the NOD is all about, and its not. That is just one facet, albeit perhaps the one that generates the most controversy.

 

It's the only one why you would need to start an entire organization to voice an opinion about. Everyone already agrees on disclosure of the other aspects, so there's no need to lobby dealers to disclose color touch or piece additions.

[MrBedrock]

 

 

 

So my first question is, if it doesn't bother you at all, then why not disclose these changes for everyone else to know about?

 

Why not tell me what you had for breakfast this morning?

Why not disclose what kind of underwear you wear, boxers or briefs (or are you a commando type)?

Why not not respond?

Because this is too much fun!

I didn't save the original tags and have no idea what the original serial numbers were. If it so important, call CGC and have someone spend their time tracking down that information. I'll be happy to sign off on it.

[adamstrange]

While I knew going in that some of you would call me out and say "prove it" (and a big thank you to those of you who have my back) I was hoping that wouldn't be the over-riding response. I don't have any intention of going through all the books and posting scans and this, that and the other. It isn't worth my time. I did post scans of a Hangman #6 on the Golden Age thread if anyone wants to look at a way cool book. And I will probably be posting more stuff there in the future. What I was hoping was that some of you would realize that all this bluster about pressing and "I can't believe what someone did to that book" and "that must be tinkered with" is just folly. Sure sometimes that is the case, but at the end of the day you don't really know. And what does it really matter. They are beautiful books! If they are 7.0 or 9.6 they are beautiful books and ya'll are wasting so much breath disparaging them you can't see the forest for the trees. Stop being cynical about this stuff and enjoy it for what it is. Comic books! Worth lots of money sometimes, sure. But always a great pleasure. So if you have a problem with some of them changing grades please don't buy any of them until I finish my collection!

 

I don't need scans Richard.

 

Just the cgc serial numbers, title, issue # and grades. You can e-mail them to me.

 

I think it is great that you don't have a problem with any of these "changing" grade issues. I really do. It makes life a lot easier not to be concerned about it. But yet you know full well that there are people (how many I will leave aside) who do not share your feeling of at ease.

 

So my first question is, if it doesn't bother you at all, then why not disclose these changes for everyone else to know about?

 

That way, for those who share your views, no harm done. And for those who feel otherwise, an informed decision can be made one way or the other. Seems like a win-win situation to me.

 

And to use a real life example of how significant a grade change can be (regardless of how it came about), let's examine Showcase #4. I have the CGC 9.2. Metro has the CGC 9.4. Motor City has the CGC 9.6. One simple subjective grade notch between each. Could be one grade one day, and another grade the other day. But OH what a price difference that would be from one day to the next. Do you want to pay that price difference, assuming you even care about this book of course , knowing that if you had just bought it the week before you could have saved tens of thousands of dollars, if not more?

 

I want to buy it the week before knowing one week later that I just made 50K!

 

Which is, of course part of the grading companies game. There's nothing unique or unusual about the grading companies grading differently from one year to the next, or in some of the hobbies, from one company to the next.

 

CGC guarantees the book to be checked by one pre-grader and two graders and allows the final grader to set the final grade. I was not particularly surprised by Richard's results, though would not have guessed that percentage of the books would have changed grades. Evidently it will take a different process to produce the type of grading consistency you are looking for.

[Darthdiesel]

We do know it has now been manipulated.

 

Now that it has been confirmed by someone who has direct knowledge, or was involved with the person who actually pressed it, yes. still doesn't prove for certain that the grade bump was due directly from the pressing

 

As far as your "sour grapes" comment about the money, . Like I care about that. Some people - perhaps not yourself - put principle over money. Nice try though.

 

I acknowledge that was a cheap shot. My apologies and I'd like to retract that. No reason for that and you deserve better

 

Its been awhile since you tried to diss on me for no reason, where ya been?

 

Taking care of work and family, what else? missed messing around with you...good ol' days

[Rocketeer]

While I knew going in that some of you would call me out and say "prove it" (and a big thank you to those of you who have my back) I was hoping that wouldn't be the over-riding response. I don't have any intention of going through all the books and posting scans and this, that and the other. It isn't worth my time. I did post scans of a Hangman #6 on the Golden Age thread if anyone wants to look at a way cool book. And I will probably be posting more stuff there in the future. What I was hoping was that some of you would realize that all this bluster about pressing and "I can't believe what someone did to that book" and "that must be tinkered with" is just folly. Sure sometimes that is the case, but at the end of the day you don't really know. And what does it really matter. They are beautiful books! If they are 7.0 or 9.6 they are beautiful books and ya'll are wasting so much breath disparaging them you can't see the forest for the trees. Stop being cynical about this stuff and enjoy it for what it is. Comic books! Worth lots of money sometimes, sure. But always a great pleasure. So if you have a problem with some of them changing grades please don't buy any of them until I finish my collection!

 

...Richie,...how dare you come on these boards with your logic and common sense and and throw a wrench in the machinery of paranoia and bedlam that we've have come to love and put our faith in,...we don't take kindly to people who think like you here so please take your love of comics and go somewhere else,...

[Lazyboy]

I got them back from CGC last week. Eight stayed the same grade. Of these two were 7.5, four were 8.0, one 8.5 Restored, and one was 9.2. Three went down in grade. One from 9.0 to 8.5, two from 8.5 to 8.0. And (Yahoo!) seven went up in grade. Five 8.5s are now 9.0, one 7.0 to 7.5, and one 6.5 to 7.5. Again - no pressing!

I have to say that something like this looks just TERRIBLE for CGC, on the books going up as well as down. I mean, talk about their grading being a total k.rap shoot!

 

At least none of the changes were by more than one grade increment!

 

Does it really look that terrible? I mean, how many 7.5s and 8.0s are actually 7.5s and 8.0s and not 7.65s, 7.75s, 7.8s, etc. Does anyone here really think that every comic book in existence falls neatly onto one of the points on the 25-point scale?

 

As a seller, you may drop those "in-between" grades to the lower side to benefit your reputation or raise them to the higher to make more money, but CGC has to go with what they feel is the best representation on the scale they use. Most of you guys have called for grader's notes, right? How often are all the grades identical?

 

Of course, once you get into grade changes of more than one increment, then the problems begin.

[143ksk]

I did post scans of a Hangman #6 on the Golden Age thread if anyone wants to look at a way cool book.

 

That book was mine when it was slabbed (as an 8.5). It looks the same to me now (except for the number on the slab...)

Steve?

 

[MrBedrock]

While I knew going in that some of you would call me out and say "prove it" (and a big thank you to those of you who have my back) I was hoping that wouldn't be the over-riding response. I don't have any intention of going through all the books and posting scans and this, that and the other. It isn't worth my time. I did post scans of a Hangman #6 on the Golden Age thread if anyone wants to look at a way cool book. And I will probably be posting more stuff there in the future. What I was hoping was that some of you would realize that all this bluster about pressing and "I can't believe what someone did to that book" and "that must be tinkered with" is just folly. Sure sometimes that is the case, but at the end of the day you don't really know. And what does it really matter. They are beautiful books! If they are 7.0 or 9.6 they are beautiful books and ya'll are wasting so much breath disparaging them you can't see the forest for the trees. Stop being cynical about this stuff and enjoy it for what it is. Comic books! Worth lots of money sometimes, sure. But always a great pleasure. So if you have a problem with some of them changing grades please don't buy any of them until I finish my collection!

 

...Richie,...how dare you come on these boards with your logic and common sense and and throw a wrench in the machinery of paranoia and bedlam that we've have come to love and put our faith in,...we don't take kindly to people who think like you here so please take your love of comics and go somewhere else,...

That's what I'm talking about....! HA HA HA!

[MrBedrock]

 

 

And to use a real life example of how significant a grade change can be (regardless of how it came about), let's examine Showcase #4. I have the CGC 9.2. Metro has the CGC 9.4. Motor City has the CGC 9.6. One simple subjective grade notch between each. Could be one grade one day, and another grade the other day. But OH what a price difference that would be from one day to the next. Do you want to pay that price difference, assuming you even care about this book of course , knowing that if you had just bought it the week before you could have saved tens of thousands of dollars, if not more?

Is your reason for owning it to say you have the nicest copy? Or is it to have a nice copy. If you want to say you have the nicest I say check your ego. If you want a nice one then I say pay the price that is comfortable for you.

[esquirecomics]

I've disagreed with aspects of the NOD and its founding principal of "mandatory disclosure". But at the end of the day, it will be the market at large, not me, not anyone here alone on the boards, that will determine the debate on pressing.

 

Of course, pressing is but just one aspect among many of the NOD and its guiding principles regarding disclosure.

 

Yes, I know -- but pressing is the one we disagree on.

 

Perfectly fine, but the impression given is that it is pressing the NOD is all about, and its not. That is just one facet, albeit perhaps the one that generates the most controversy.

 

It's the only one why you would need to start an entire organization to voice an opinion about. Everyone already agrees on disclosure of the other aspects, so there's no need to lobby dealers to disclose color touch or piece additions.

 

C'mon Brian, you know that is not entirely true. For example, dry erasure/cleaning is a controversial topic too, and the NOD requires disclosure of that information as well.

 

It wasn't until recently, when you examine the hobby historically, that color touch needed to be disclosed. The hobby shifted on that point. It may just as well do the same on other points.

[Darthdiesel]

If you want a nice one then I say pay the price that is comfortable for you.

 

I can live with that. If you know the CGC grading process and can accept the subjectivity based on the different graders who may process your book on any submission, and realize that they don't all see eye to eye and it is more a consensus that the grade on the label represents, then why should one be surprised or suspicious when resubmits go up and down in grade? If I'm selling a CGC graded book, I'm pushing what I have in hand, not what it potentially could be down the road.

[Straw-Man]

Is your reason for owning it to say you have the nicest copy? Or is it to have a nice copy. If you want to say you have the nicest I say check your ego. If you want a nice one then I say pay the price that is comfortable for you.

 

ricky, i swear, if you actually influence some of these flat-earthers to the point they stop their screeds, it's gonna be me and you. tell me this stuff isn't funnier than everybody loves raymond reruns! if you don't start being REALLY careful slinging these disgustingly sensible comments around like nobody could get hurt, we're going to lose some fun. you stand warned.

[esquirecomics]

 

 

So my first question is, if it doesn't bother you at all, then why not disclose these changes for everyone else to know about?

 

Why not tell me what you had for breakfast this morning?

Why not disclose what kind of underwear you wear, boxers or briefs (or are you a commando type)?

Why not not respond?

Because this is too much fun!

I didn't save the original tags and have no idea what the original serial numbers were. If it so important, call CGC and have someone spend their time tracking down that information. I'll be happy to sign off on it.

 

Fine, Richard. You can make light of the whole situation if you want. You were the one who came on with straightforward questions, and we answered them. And in return we asked you some questions. If you don't want to answer, that's fine. But we were trying to be serious and engage in conversation.

 

BTW, I didn't eat breakfast today (yea, I know, bad me) and I wear boxers.

 

I'll take you up on your offer for the serial numbers. Much appreciated. Send me the new ones at your convenience. Were you the original submitter as well (or did you answer that above)?

[esquirecomics]

We do know it has now been manipulated.

 

Now that it has been confirmed by someone who has direct knowledge, or was involved with the person who actually pressed it, yes. still doesn't prove for certain that the grade bump was due directly from the pressing

 

No disagreement from me on this point. I said that at the beginning.

 

As far as your "sour grapes" comment about the money, . Like I care about that. Some people - perhaps not yourself - put principle over money. Nice try though.

 

I acknowledge that was a cheap shot. My apologies and I'd like to retract that. No reason for that and you deserve better

 

Apology accepted. Issue is in the past.

 

Its been awhile since you tried to diss on me for no reason, where ya been?

 

Taking care of work and family, what else? missed messing around with you...good ol' days

 

Hope the kids are doing great! Now there is the best excuse anyone has for staying away from these boards!

[Rocketeer]

And to use a real life example of how significant a grade change can be (regardless of how it came about), let's examine Showcase #4. I have the CGC 9.2. Metro has the CGC 9.4. Motor City has the CGC 9.6. One simple subjective grade notch between each. Could be one grade one day, and another grade the other day. But OH what a price difference that would be from one day to the next. Do you want to pay that price difference, assuming you even care about this book of course , knowing that if you had just bought it the week before you could have saved tens of thousands of dollars, if not more?

 

...ten years ago before CGC all three copies were NM and would have sold for the same price,...so the idea of anyone paying less for the 9.2 or more for the 9.6 today is ludicrous,...this is perhaps the worst example of "buy the book not the label" that I've ever seen,...what this hobby needs is to go back to a 5 grade scale and end all this nonsense once and for all,...good...very good...fine...very fine...near mint,...there you go...all the pressers are out of business and we can sleep nights again,...

[adamstrange]

I've disagreed with aspects of the NOD and its founding principal of "mandatory disclosure". But at the end of the day, it will be the market at large, not me, not anyone here alone on the boards, that will determine the debate on pressing.

 

Of course, pressing is but just one aspect among many of the NOD and its guiding principles regarding disclosure.

 

Yes, I know -- but pressing is the one we disagree on.

 

Perfectly fine, but the impression given is that it is pressing the NOD is all about, and its not. That is just one facet, albeit perhaps the one that generates the most controversy.

 

It's the only one why you would need to start an entire organization to voice an opinion about. Everyone already agrees on disclosure of the other aspects, so there's no need to lobby dealers to disclose color touch or piece additions.

 

C'mon Brian, you know that is not entirely true. For example, dry erasure/cleaning is a controversial topic too, and the NOD requires disclosure of that information as well.

 

It wasn't until recently, when you examine the hobby historically, that color touch needed to be disclosed. The hobby shifted on that point. It may just as well do the same on other points.

 

Not sure what you mean by recent. I've been collecting for a little over 20 years and in all that time I've felt there was a consensus that people that didn't disclose color touch were trying to put something over on the buyer.

[esquirecomics]

If you want a nice one then I say pay the price that is comfortable for you.

 

I can live with that. If you know the CGC grading process and can accept the subjectivity based on the different graders who may process your book on any submission, and realize that they don't all see eye to eye and it is more a consensus that the grade on the label represents, then why should one be surprised or suspicious when resubmits go up and down in grade? If I'm selling a CGC graded book, I'm pushing what I have in hand, not what it potentially could be down the road.

 

Though you know that DD because of your long experience with CGC. Many collectors do not.

[esquirecomics]

And to use a real life example of how significant a grade change can be (regardless of how it came about), let's examine Showcase #4. I have the CGC 9.2. Metro has the CGC 9.4. Motor City has the CGC 9.6. One simple subjective grade notch between each. Could be one grade one day, and another grade the other day. But OH what a price difference that would be from one day to the next. Do you want to pay that price difference, assuming you even care about this book of course , knowing that if you had just bought it the week before you could have saved tens of thousands of dollars, if not more?

 

...ten years ago before CGC all three copies were NM and would have sold for the same price,...so the idea of anyone paying less for the 9.2 or more for the 9.6 today is ludicrous,...this is perhaps the worst example of "buy the book not the label" that I've ever seen,...what this hobby needs is to go back to a 5 grade scale and end all this nonsense once and for all,...

 

Actually, I'm with you on this one.

[MrBedrock]

Is your reason for owning it to say you have the nicest copy? Or is it to have a nice copy. If you want to say you have the nicest I say check your ego. If you want a nice one then I say pay the price that is comfortable for you.

 

ricky, i swear, if you actually influence some of these flat-earthers to the point they stop their screeds, it's gonna be me and you. tell me this stuff isn't funnier than everybody loves raymond reruns! if you don't start being REALLY careful slinging these disgustingly sensible comments around like nobody could get hurt, we're going to lose some fun. you stand warned.

I missed Heroes for this! (But I did stop to watch the Spidey 3 preview. WOW!)

[esquirecomics]

I've disagreed with aspects of the NOD and its founding principal of "mandatory disclosure". But at the end of the day, it will be the market at large, not me, not anyone here alone on the boards, that will determine the debate on pressing.

 

Of course, pressing is but just one aspect among many of the NOD and its guiding principles regarding disclosure.

 

Yes, I know -- but pressing is the one we disagree on.

 

Perfectly fine, but the impression given is that it is pressing the NOD is all about, and its not. That is just one facet, albeit perhaps the one that generates the most controversy.

 

It's the only one why you would need to start an entire organization to voice an opinion about. Everyone already agrees on disclosure of the other aspects, so there's no need to lobby dealers to disclose color touch or piece additions.

 

C'mon Brian, you know that is not entirely true. For example, dry erasure/cleaning is a controversial topic too, and the NOD requires disclosure of that information as well.

 

It wasn't until recently, when you examine the hobby historically, that color touch needed to be disclosed. The hobby shifted on that point. It may just as well do the same on other points.

 

Not sure what you mean by recent. I've been collecting for a little over 20 years and in all that time I've felt there was a consensus that people that didn't disclose color touch were trying to put something over on the buyer.

 

Quite a few dealers and collectors (and I say this based on what others with personal knowledge have told me) with were routinely applying color touch in the 1980s, and perhaps into the 1990s, without disclosure. Some off them lowered the price of the book to "reflect" the CT but didn't disclose it. CGC was the nail in the coffin to stop this, whether they intended to or not.