Manufactured Gold

[chaos_ad-migration]

Way to start slinging insults Scott

 

Why is it that you feel the need to denigrate the NOD and all it's members? Does this organization make you feel threatened?

 

I just don't follow your logic on why you can't share an opinion without belittling those you are opining against.

 

Who says logic has anything to do with it?

 

And why did I belittle Zaid? Because he's belittleable. It's totally cool for Mark to jump into everyone's business, but it's not ok for people who don't like it to call him on it? WHAT-ever.

 

Scott....get a couple high-profile cases and I guarantee, you'll start feeling better about yourself.

 

You think I'm jealous of Mark's legal abilities? That is the ultimate joke of all, but you'd have to be a lawyer to understand how funny it is. I suppose his resume looks pretty important to someone who gauges legal skill by how often a lawyer appears on TV.

 

Suffice it to say that if I ever try to get John Wilkes Booth's body dug up out of a grave that is over 100 years old just to get my name in the paper, I hope someone shoots me.

 

Where does the line start? Is it around the block yet?

[FFB]

 

 

So my first question is, if it doesn't bother you at all, then why not disclose these changes for everyone else to know about?

 

Why not tell me what you had for breakfast this morning?

Why not disclose what kind of underwear you wear, boxers or briefs (or are you a commando type)?

Why not not respond?

Because this is too much fun!

I didn't save the original tags and have no idea what the original serial numbers were. If it so important, call CGC and have someone spend their time tracking down that information. I'll be happy to sign off on it.

 

I take this to mean that you will not be forthright in your business dealings, if a person were to inquire about known enhancements to books you sell.

Actually, I'd be the first to tell you if any of my books were pressed, cleaned, color touched etc. It has been a matter of principle to me for years. And I give a full refund on any purchase you are unhappy with WITH NO EXPLANATION NECESSARY. But this isn't a business deal. This is someone nit picking for information that really isn't necessary at this time. If I were selling him a book I'd be happy to tell him everything.

 

Don't give this clown your serial numbers, Richard.

 

What serial numbers?

 

Bedrock made two statements regarding labels/tags/serial numbers.

 

First...

 

"I sent them in with the labels in the back of each mylar with each book."

 

and then...

 

"I didn't save the original tags and have no idea what the original serial numbers were."

 

...So there isn't any serial numbers to give.

 

The part I was talking about is a little easier to see if you read the entire discussion and not just the parts you quoted.

[garthgantu]

I DO agree with you that too many people here are seeing shadows everywhere, and attributing everything to pressing or other manipulation where it might not be the case at all.

 

The irony is that Mr.Bedrock's list of resubs with changed grades only serves to cast more shadows (which I've now decided was his intention all along).

 

I'm convinced that there are more than a few board members who currently feel similarly to Mr.Bedrock but whose attitude will change when one or two of their census-topping books (or simply high-dollar books that are among the highest graded) get a bit more company... when that 9.4 GA book that used to top the census is joined by one or two (or more) other copies - and some of those copies' histories can be effectively tracked a la the Gallery of Disclosure, THEN you'll hear some tunes a-changing... Until then, it's "every man for himself" or bury your head in the sand.

 

And to my previous point about NOT buying slabbed books based on the prospect of their having been manipulated, I should have made clear: I'll still buy slabbed books, but only from those dealers who have established a track record of disclosure. Quality/Brent is an example of this.

[MasterChief]

 

 

So my first question is, if it doesn't bother you at all, then why not disclose these changes for everyone else to know about?

 

Why not tell me what you had for breakfast this morning?

Why not disclose what kind of underwear you wear, boxers or briefs (or are you a commando type)?

Why not not respond?

Because this is too much fun!

I didn't save the original tags and have no idea what the original serial numbers were. If it so important, call CGC and have someone spend their time tracking down that information. I'll be happy to sign off on it.

 

I take this to mean that you will not be forthright in your business dealings, if a person were to inquire about known enhancements to books you sell.

Actually, I'd be the first to tell you if any of my books were pressed, cleaned, color touched etc. It has been a matter of principle to me for years. And I give a full refund on any purchase you are unhappy with WITH NO EXPLANATION NECESSARY. But this isn't a business deal. This is someone nit picking for information that really isn't necessary at this time. If I were selling him a book I'd be happy to tell him everything.

 

Don't give this clown your serial numbers, Richard.

 

What serial numbers?

 

Bedrock made two statements regarding labels/tags/serial numbers.

 

First...

 

"I sent them in with the labels in the back of each mylar with each book."

 

and then...

 

"I didn't save the original tags and have no idea what the original serial numbers were."

 

...So there isn't any serial numbers to give.

 

The part I was talking about is a little easier to see if you read the entire discussion and not just the parts you quoted.

 

Maybe you can point that part out 'cause I missed it entirely.

[FFB]

 

 

So my first question is, if it doesn't bother you at all, then why not disclose these changes for everyone else to know about?

 

Why not tell me what you had for breakfast this morning?

Why not disclose what kind of underwear you wear, boxers or briefs (or are you a commando type)?

Why not not respond?

Because this is too much fun!

I didn't save the original tags and have no idea what the original serial numbers were. If it so important, call CGC and have someone spend their time tracking down that information. I'll be happy to sign off on it.

 

I take this to mean that you will not be forthright in your business dealings, if a person were to inquire about known enhancements to books you sell.

Actually, I'd be the first to tell you if any of my books were pressed, cleaned, color touched etc. It has been a matter of principle to me for years. And I give a full refund on any purchase you are unhappy with WITH NO EXPLANATION NECESSARY. But this isn't a business deal. This is someone nit picking for information that really isn't necessary at this time. If I were selling him a book I'd be happy to tell him everything.

 

Don't give this clown your serial numbers, Richard.

 

What serial numbers?

 

Bedrock made two statements regarding labels/tags/serial numbers.

 

First...

 

"I sent them in with the labels in the back of each mylar with each book."

 

and then...

 

"I didn't save the original tags and have no idea what the original serial numbers were."

 

...So there isn't any serial numbers to give.

 

The part I was talking about is a little easier to see if you read the entire discussion and not just the parts you quoted.

 

Maybe you can point that part out 'cause I missed it entirely.

 

It's in the part where Richard offers to let Mark or whoever else call CGC and access his submission information to get serial numbers, etc. See it now?

[mica]

The last eight or so pages of this thread have been excellent. Civil, informed debate by all parties.

 

So much for page 9

A lot of us saw it coming as soon as he said that.

Kind of like "They're sending out the Kicker to put this game away. He hasn't missed a kick inside the 20 all year."

[codfish]

Well this is a strange debate now. So let me just say that change in grades do not necessarily disturb me. Half point or less jumps are not necessarily something to raise a huge concern with me because grading is subjective. I would expect graders to ponder why a book may have gone up or down and be prepared to give their rationale but I don't think that a grade change is necessarily an indication of something fishy.

 

From Richard's anecdote what would concern me is the one book that jumped from a 6.5 to 7.5, if I remember correctly. That kind of jump would ring all sorts of alarm bells since there should be very distinct differences between those grades. If the nothing was truly done to the book then there is a problem with the grading. BUT, statistically speaking errors like that can occur even in standard qc systems so what would be interesting to know is just how often a jump like that happens in any given day. It should be rare but if it is not the system needs to be reviewed.

 

As cynical as people may think I am I can be logical and understanding too. I don't expect CGC to be perfect. I just expect them to be able to be consistent that is very hard to tell though and there are other disturbing problems as this thread points out.

[FFB]

The last eight or so pages of this thread have been excellent. Civil, informed debate by all parties.

 

So much for page 9

A lot of us saw it coming as soon as he said that.

Kind of like "They're sending out the Kicker to put this game away. He hasn't missed a kick inside the 20 all year."

 

I have to admit it was a factor in my decision to post my initial message. So in a roundabout way, Ponsetti, you are partly to blame.

[FFB]

Well this is a strange debate now. So let me just say that change in grades do not necessarily disturb me. Half point or less jumps are not necessarily something to raise a huge concern with me because grading is subjective. I would expect graders to ponder why a book may have gone up or down and be prepared to give their rationale but I don't think that a grade change is necessarily an indication of something fishy.

 

From Richard's anecdote what would concern me is the one book that jumped from a 6.5 to 7.5, if I remember correctly. That kind of jump would ring all sorts of alarm bells since there should be very distinct differences between those grades. If the nothing was truly done to the book then there is a problem with the grading. BUT, statistically speaking errors like that can occur even in standard qc systems so what would be interesting to know is just how often a jump like that happens in any given day. It should be rare but if it is not the system needs to be reviewed.

 

As cynical as people may think I am I can be logical and understanding too. I don't expect CGC to be perfect. I just expect them to be able to be consistent that is very hard to tell though and there are other disturbing problems as this thread points out.

 

A jump from 6.5 to 7.5 every once in a while does not surprise me. If it happened all of the time, it would be more cause for concern -- but if you've got a strong 6.5 that just didn't make the cut the first time, and then it gets graded as a weak 7.5 the second time a few years later, I can totally see that happening. When I graded my Spidey collection before selling it and then regraded it several months later, I had a few books here and there where the grades differed by two grade levels.

[MasterChief]

 

 

So my first question is, if it doesn't bother you at all, then why not disclose these changes for everyone else to know about?

 

Why not tell me what you had for breakfast this morning?

Why not disclose what kind of underwear you wear, boxers or briefs (or are you a commando type)?

Why not not respond?

Because this is too much fun!

I didn't save the original tags and have no idea what the original serial numbers were. If it so important, call CGC and have someone spend their time tracking down that information. I'll be happy to sign off on it.

 

I take this to mean that you will not be forthright in your business dealings, if a person were to inquire about known enhancements to books you sell.

Actually, I'd be the first to tell you if any of my books were pressed, cleaned, color touched etc. It has been a matter of principle to me for years. And I give a full refund on any purchase you are unhappy with WITH NO EXPLANATION NECESSARY. But this isn't a business deal. This is someone nit picking for information that really isn't necessary at this time. If I were selling him a book I'd be happy to tell him everything.

 

Don't give this clown your serial numbers, Richard.

 

What serial numbers?

 

Bedrock made two statements regarding labels/tags/serial numbers.

 

First...

 

"I sent them in with the labels in the back of each mylar with each book."

 

and then...

 

"I didn't save the original tags and have no idea what the original serial numbers were."

 

...So there isn't any serial numbers to give.

 

The part I was talking about is a little easier to see if you read the entire discussion and not just the parts you quoted.

 

Maybe you can point that part out 'cause I missed it entirely.

 

It's in the part where Richard offers to let Mark or whoever else call CGC and access his submission information to get serial numbers, etc. See it now?

 

Maybe I'm missing something... I thought that comment was made tongue-in-cheek.

 

Will CGC give out information regarding someone else's submission...even if the submitter acknowledges that it's OK?

[FFB]

It's in the part where Richard offers to let Mark or whoever else call CGC and access his submission information to get serial numbers, etc. See it now?

 

Maybe I'm missing something... I thought that comment was made tongue-in-cheek.

 

Will CGC give out information regarding someone else's submission...even if the submitter acknowledges that it's OK?

 

1-877-NM-COMIC

 

[MasterChief]

It's in the part where Richard offers to let Mark or whoever else call CGC and access his submission information to get serial numbers, etc. See it now?

 

Maybe I'm missing something... I thought that comment was made tongue-in-cheek.

 

Will CGC give out information regarding someone else's submission...even if the submitter acknowledges that it's OK?

 

1-877-NM-COMIC

 

 

Why of course.

[Aman619]

well, at least you had a good reason! ; (

 

I just thought you were a tad loud and dischordant in a heretofore (and commented upon ) civil thread, and wondered why you fely you needed to be so disruptive. We had both apparently been content (up to our posts) to quietly just read along with the ongoing discussion.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Holy over-inflated Egos Batman. I would have posted earlier...but I couldn't get past the giant-sized heads that were blocking the door.

[garthgantu]

It's the only one why you would need to start an entire organization to voice an opinion about. Everyone already agrees on disclosure of the other aspects, so there's no need to lobby dealers to disclose color touch or piece additions.

 

Really? Tell that to Ewert's victims...

 

You think the NOD is going to stop the Jason Ewerts of the hobby from practicing their trade? I would not have expected this level of naivety from someone in PR.

 

You misunderstand my point...or perhaps I made the point poorly. FK seemed to be suggesting that all other forms of restoration were not only agreed upon by the collecting community as a whole, but that this tacit agreement somehow precluded dealers (or other submitters of any/all stripes) from doing things to improve a book's appearance while not disclosing same.

 

I'm not in the least suggesting that a polite request to Ewert back in the day, or to any underhanded dealer who might be practicing other forms of what is generally considered restoration without disclosing it to CGC upon submission, would have a direct effect.

 

I was merely pointing out that the need for more information and the need to educate buyers of back issue comic books has not diminished...if anything, it's grown.

 

If someone had posted to the boards five years ago claiming there was a new type of trimming going on, and that poster couldn't provide any evidence to support the claim, they'd have been laughed off the boards...but they would still have been correct.

 

I don't expect the NoD to stop any unscrupulous seller from trying to get away with some gaming of the system. I hope that the NoD will simply open some additional eyes to the potential for abuse that the current system engenders.

 

Wouldn't you appreciate a full overview of the Ewert scam, in one centralized location (instead of spread out over 23 threads on these boards), with all the available details and lists of as many of the books in question as possible? Wouldn't that be a good thing for anyone in the hobby to know about? History is much more apt to repeat itself when its lessons are ignored, to paraphrase someone smarter than me.

[garthgantu]

Tell you what -- when I want your opinion, I'll slam my head in a car door. Until then, you could just save yourself the effort and spare me your input.

 

I think what you really mean by this post is "when I want your opinion, I'll give it to you," as Sam Goldwyn once said.

 

I gotta say, Scott - you used to be a lot better about interacting with, if not agreeing with, those whose opinions differ from your own.

 

But your screeds are starting to sound a tad megomaniacal... as though the rest of us are so deluded and/or febrile that we're not worth reasoning with at all, just shouting down.

 

In my view, you were a lot more effective back in the day, when your opinions, opposing or otherwise, were presented with less vitriol and a bit more of an effort to see things from someone else's perspective.

[DeeDee-migration]

Holy over-inflated Egos Batman. I would have posted earlier...but I couldn't get past the giant-sized heads that were blocking the door.

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

Keep in mind that the identity of the trimmer ( I don't believe Ewert did the work himself) has never been pursued. This has always raised a giant red flag for me. It leads me to believe that the one doing the actual trimming is known to CGC.

 

Just my opinion of course....

[garthgantu]

Keep in mind that the identity of the trimmer ( I don't believe Ewert did the work himself) has never been pursued. This has always raised a giant red flag for me. It leads me to believe that the one doing the actual trimming is known to CGC.

 

Just my opinion of course....

 

Interesting theory, Beyonder... how do you come to that conclusion? Wouldn't CGC want to "out" the person in question, as one means of discouraging the practice? Or do you think their silence is due to the fact that they have no real way of 'punishing' said practitioner, and identifying and 'outing' him/her would just drive business his/her way?

 

Far as I know, CGC has never stated officially and unequivocally that the trimming processed identified in Ewert's submissions was a process CGC could now identify consistently. I've asked, but never seen an answer.

[FFB]

Tell you what -- when I want your opinion, I'll slam my head in a car door. Until then, you could just save yourself the effort and spare me your input.

 

I think what you really mean by this post is "when I want your opinion, I'll give it to you," as Sam Goldwyn once said.

 

I gotta say, Scott - you used to be a lot better about interacting with, if not agreeing with, those whose opinions differ from your own.

 

I get along fine with most people who disagree with my take on things. The fact that I have a personal beef with Mr. Zaid and his disingenuous, sanctimonious bullchit does not mean that I interact with everyone else the same way.

 

But your screeds are starting to sound a tad megomaniacal... as though the rest of us are so deluded and/or febrile that we're not worth reasoning with at all, just shouting down.

 

In my view, you were a lot more effective back in the day, when your opinions, opposing or otherwise, were presented with less vitriol and a bit more of an effort to see things from someone else's perspective.

 

Megalomaniacal? Dude, you have been reading wayyyy too many comic books.