What's the most you've spent on one piece of art (cash!)?

[comix4fun]

From the way I understand it, the mods can't (maybe "won't weed thru"is more realistic) deleted individual posts. So, if KK started on one his posting sprees the mods will delete all the posts from the start of his stuff to the end of it. Anything in between becomes a casualty.

 

I missed the thread this weekend, so I don't really know what took place.

 

 

No one know yet what exactly occurred.

 

KK jumped into this thread, did what he does, got banned and around the same time a bunch of posts disappeared. Could be coincidence, could be related.

 

C

[chrisco37]

From the way I understand it, the mods can't (maybe "won't weed thru"is more realistic) deleted individual posts. So, if KK started on one his posting sprees the mods will delete all the posts from the start of his stuff to the end of it. Anything in between becomes a casualty.

 

I missed the thread this weekend, so I don't really know what took place.

 

 

No one know yet what exactly occurred.

 

KK jumped into this thread, did what he does, got banned and around the same time a bunch of posts disappeared. Could be coincidence, could be related.

 

C

 

Almost certainly related. The mods probably just deleted everything from his first post to his last, as opposed to reading the thread and sorting out what was relevant to the discussion and what was KK drivel.

 

Once again, he ruins a perfectly good discussion.

[delekkerste]

Almost certainly related. The mods probably just deleted everything from his first post to his last, as opposed to reading the thread and sorting out what was relevant to the discussion and what was KK drivel.

 

I'm sure that's what happened, but what is throwing everyone off is that they forgot to delete one of his posts, which is still showing up in this thread.

[Nexus]

From the way I understand it, the mods can't (maybe "won't weed thru"is more realistic) deleted individual posts. So, if KK started on one his posting sprees the mods will delete all the posts from the start of his stuff to the end of it. Anything in between becomes a casualty.

 

Not sure why everyone assumed it was Ruben's posts that got the thread chopped up. I don't think he (or anyone else for that matter) said anything particularly controversial.

 

So I got a hold of CGC and was told that a mod did, in fact, delete everything starting from Matt(KK)'s first post in the thread. Which seems like a really clumsy way of handling it since a. a good discussion had developed in spite of Matt(KK) and b. Matt(KK)'s latest shill is still here.

 

I missed the thread this weekend, so I don't really know what took place.

 

My best recollection (my impressions, not necessarily the posters' exact words) of what got deleted:

 

-- Ruben longs for the old days when the hobby took more work and there was less talk of money...the money-centric nature of these boards disgusts him;

 

-- Dan F believes investors do less to raise market values than collectors;

 

-- Dan F recalls when the Tony Christopher collection was dispersed, that Kirby values flattened out for a while;

 

-- David Miller disputes this (in the nicest possible, least confrontational, manner);

 

-- Hari gently corrects David and agrees with Dan;

 

-- Ron S reveals the piece that shoots him up the spending ladder: The Buscema SS #9 cover that he acquires from Mike Burkey...after Jon Mankuta tells him how great it is at SDCC;

 

-- Folks congratulate Ron, including Jon Mankuta who then tells the rest of us about SS covers and why #9 is better than the others.

 

That's what stood out to me and what I remember. Anyone else can feel free to fill in the blanks.

[malvin]

What a great summary Felix! You should switch jobs and become a summarizer, if there is such a thing.

 

Malvin

[comix4fun]

What a great summary Felix! You should switch jobs and become a summarizer, if there is such a thing.

 

Malvin

 

 

Best summary of a summary. EVARRR!!!!!!!

[comicartcom]

I've already reached out to the moderators. If I hear back I'll let you know.

 

It's really not that big a deal and kind of no surprise. I think everyone I wanted to read my comments read them and remembers the gist of what I was saying.

 

sadly Ruben, I wanted to read all of the posts after a certain point that I had not and couldn't find 20 minutes to do and respond because I'm so busy. so I missed them

 

however, I did read the first couple and I have made the same questions - about why do so many people on this board always talk about money/value. I have brought it up at least a few times and everytime I have, some vocal members have tried to "shout me down". The sad part is that no one posts any response at first, and then after one guy does, it's like lemmings and there suddenly appear many posts, then they get rude and start calling names etc.

 

Bronty has witnessed it a couple times

 

Myself, once the comics/art hobby became overpopulated by collectors whith money-oriented philosophies, it foretold my personal loss of interest in the hobby. I mean, why collect anything if you are preoccupied with the money aspect of what you are buying? Hobbying is supposed to be about nostalgiac emotion - whatever hobby you're involved in - and while it can't be avoided that some aspects involve money directly, it bespeaks of misguidance for those whose main focus is the money and sadly again, there seem to be too many on that side of the fence.

 

I know people who think that collectibles should increase in value year after year, ad-infinitum. This is a false idea. Value is measured by many factors including but not limited to: desirablilty, interested populace, historical importance and personal interest. All of these factors are not present in every deal, but numerous ones are.

 

in alot of ways, the comics and art hobbies are the ultimate in shell games with prices going up up up until finally the single person over whom noboby will pay more is on the scene.

 

Another factor is that in comics and art hobbying, prices never seem to go down in reflection of lack of interest, lessened interest or a collapsing pyramid as happens in virtually all other hobbies.

 

In movie posters for instance, 2 years ago a copy of This Gun For Hire was auctioned by Heritage and reached $47,800

 

they followed it up with 3 more auctions in the following 2 years with the poster going for $22k, $21k and $20k which is back to where the poster was selling before the $47k result. So once again the poster is a $20k poster

 

However, in comic books - this is not allowed to happen, creating a false belief that a comic that sold for $47,800 is always worth $47,800 until it goes up again because one collector was willing to pay $47,800 for it to the exclusivity of all other collectors for a particular item

 

In other words, it is not allowed for a comic book or piece of comic art to be allowed to "fall back to Earth".

 

The person who paid $47k is not out there screaming that they overpaid. the buyers who came in at $22, 21 and 20k are not out there proclaiming their bargains and that is because none of them care. They wanted to have the poster at a level that was comfortable to them as individuals.

 

Fortunately, the movie poster hobby does not have a price guide, which is universally viewed as a plus by collectors and dealers and the hobby is healthy and growing. At the same time, the comics hobby is getting smaller. yes the amounts are getting bigger, but that's because that buying is being done by an elite group of people that does not reflect the hobby as a whole, but the hobby as a whole invariably points to those individuals as representative of the hobby and they are not. They are only representative of that elite group of buyers.

 

To those that doubt what I am saying I say this: golden age issues of certain titles like Supes, Bats, Marvel Myst etc will always be collected and for the most part in the upper grades will show incremental growth, slowdowns, and then incremental growth again and continue in that pattern. But the titles that have less of a connection to contemporary readers will deteriorate due to a lessening interest in that area. Golden age Blue Beetle comics are not an overall "good investment" because at some point they will pass the critical mass of there being enough interest in the title to bring incremental growth and they will deteriorate - if they have not done so already - and the large part of golden age comics will follow as well. As the years go by, the same will happen to Silver, Bronze etc.

 

Another factor that will decrease values is that there are only so many buyers at the top. When they cease buying, it brings it's own decrease along with it - presuming people recognize it and drop prices accordingly.

 

Dropping prices when the market needs it is a healthy thing. It reflects a reality that keeps buyers in, not barracading them on the side of a fence called high prices where the market stumbles and fails..

 

to those that think otherwise.. can we say "housing market" ??

[dem1138]

What you're saying is false. Just look at recent Comiclink auction prices for FF #12 and Avengers #16 in high grade -- prices have been all over the place and most recently except for in one instance the hammer prices have dropped significantly. Erratic pricing in comics happen all the time as do severe drops in price. Look at AF #15 -- that book skyrocketed out of nowhere and hit highs that won't be hit again for a few years. Prices on that book are much lower than they were 6-8 months ago.

[Nexus]

For me, the talk about money/value can get tiresome both ways. Not just from KK, but from the Chicken Littles, too.

 

Matt/KK wants the market to explode. But often it seems like the Chicken Littles would like the market to implode. Some believe it's so they can eventually buy art on the cheap. That may or may not be true...in many cases, it seems more like sour grapes. Some Chicken Littles have been in the hobby for a long time and either cashed out too early, or missed the boat entirely. So it pisses them off to see values continually go higher.

 

You actually make a lot of good points in your post, Richard. But the fact is...none of us know for sure exactly how this will play out. Not KK, not you.

 

In the meantime, if we all follow the "buy-what-you-like-and-can-afford" rule, we should be OK, right?

 

My 2 cents (money again!)

[comicartcom]

What you're saying is false. Just look at recent Comiclink auction prices for FF #12 and Avengers #16 in high grade -- prices have been all over the place and most recently except for in one instance the hammer prices have dropped significantly. Erratic pricing in comics happen all the time as do severe drops in price. Look at AF #15 -- that book skyrocketed out of nowhere and hit highs that won't be hit again for a few years. Prices on that book are much lower than they were 6-8 months ago.

 

you are micro-managing the data.

what happened when those Supes #4, 6 & 10 went for huge amounts?

every dealer who had similar issues repriced their books to those levels

what has happened since I have not tracked.

 

But again, that is micro-managed data

the real measure is not how single issues have done in the marketplace but how the whole breadth of the marketplace reacts. That always goes in one direction. up up up to the stratosphere

[comicartcom]

Nexus is correct, however what should be said is that those who have the most experience are more able to make educated guesses where any market is going. That's why Wall Street funds are guided by older men and not 20-somethings.

 

also, educated predictions/guesses can be right or wrong at any particular time and time can reverse either result

[dem1138]

What you're saying is false. Just look at recent Comiclink auction prices for FF #12 and Avengers #16 in high grade -- prices have been all over the place and most recently except for in one instance the hammer prices have dropped significantly. Erratic pricing in comics happen all the time as do severe drops in price. Look at AF #15 -- that book skyrocketed out of nowhere and hit highs that won't be hit again for a few years. Prices on that book are much lower than they were 6-8 months ago.

 

you are micro-managing the data.

what happened when those Supes #4, 6 & 10 went for huge amounts?

every dealer who had similar issues repriced their books to those levels

what has happened since I have not tracked.

 

But again, that is micro-managed data

the real measure is not how single issues have done in the marketplace but how the whole breadth of the marketplace reacts. That always goes in one direction. up up up to the stratosphere

 

Just trying to have a civil discussion here - because I enjoy the banter back and forth -- but you used a singe instance to make your point -- that of one poster -- and the you dismiss my examples because I've micro-managed the data -- I can only compare apples to apples. And my point was that there are many examples of books going up and down, just like the movie poster market. They are very similar markets and that was my point of dissension from yours -- which was they are different.

 

 

[westform]

Ok, that's it. I'm done posting long winded responses.... from now on, I send my post to Felix and he boils it down to one pertinant sentence....

 

I still think it is ridiculously stupid for the moderators here to slash and burn our thoughts and comments. I don't care if Matt chimes in or not. If he does, can we all look forward to absent threads???

 

From the way I understand it, the mods can't (maybe "won't weed thru"is more realistic) deleted individual posts. So, if KK started on one his posting sprees the mods will delete all the posts from the start of his stuff to the end of it. Anything in between becomes a casualty.

 

Not sure why everyone assumed it was Ruben's posts that got the thread chopped up. I don't think he (or anyone else for that matter) said anything particularly controversial.

 

So I got a hold of CGC and was told that a mod did, in fact, delete everything starting from Matt(KK)'s first post in the thread. Which seems like a really clumsy way of handling it since a. a good discussion had developed in spite of Matt(KK) and b. Matt(KK)'s latest shill is still here.

 

I missed the thread this weekend, so I don't really know what took place.

 

My best recollection (my impressions, not necessarily the posters' exact words) of what got deleted:

 

-- Ruben longs for the old days when the hobby took more work and there was less talk of money...the money-centric nature of these boards disgusts him;

 

-- Dan F believes investors do less to raise market values than collectors;

 

-- Dan F recalls when the Tony Christopher collection was dispersed, that Kirby values flattened out for a while;

 

-- David Miller disputes this (in the nicest possible, least confrontational, manner);

 

-- Hari gently corrects David and agrees with Dan;

 

-- Ron S reveals the piece that shoots him up the spending ladder: The Buscema SS #9 cover that he acquires from Mike Burkey...after Jon Mankuta tells him how great it is at SDCC;

 

-- Folks congratulate Ron, including Jon Mankuta who then tells the rest of us about SS covers and why #9 is better than the others.

 

That's what stood out to me and what I remember. Anyone else can feel free to fill in the blanks.

[comix4fun]

Can you send this post to Felix so I can get the short hand version?

 

 

Ok, that's it. I'm done posting long winded responses.... from now on, I send my post to Felix and he boils it down to one pertinant sentence....

 

I still think it is ridiculously stupid for the moderators here to slash and burn our thoughts and comments. I don't care if Matt chimes in or not. If he does, can we all look forward to absent threads???

 

From the way I understand it, the mods can't (maybe "won't weed thru"is more realistic) deleted individual posts. So, if KK started on one his posting sprees the mods will delete all the posts from the start of his stuff to the end of it. Anything in between becomes a casualty.

 

Not sure why everyone assumed it was Ruben's posts that got the thread chopped up. I don't think he (or anyone else for that matter) said anything particularly controversial.

 

So I got a hold of CGC and was told that a mod did, in fact, delete everything starting from Matt(KK)'s first post in the thread. Which seems like a really clumsy way of handling it since a. a good discussion had developed in spite of Matt(KK) and b. Matt(KK)'s latest shill is still here.

 

I missed the thread this weekend, so I don't really know what took place.

 

My best recollection (my impressions, not necessarily the posters' exact words) of what got deleted:

 

-- Ruben longs for the old days when the hobby took more work and there was less talk of money...the money-centric nature of these boards disgusts him;

 

-- Dan F believes investors do less to raise market values than collectors;

 

-- Dan F recalls when the Tony Christopher collection was dispersed, that Kirby values flattened out for a while;

 

-- David Miller disputes this (in the nicest possible, least confrontational, manner);

 

-- Hari gently corrects David and agrees with Dan;

 

-- Ron S reveals the piece that shoots him up the spending ladder: The Buscema SS #9 cover that he acquires from Mike Burkey...after Jon Mankuta tells him how great it is at SDCC;

 

-- Folks congratulate Ron, including Jon Mankuta who then tells the rest of us about SS covers and why #9 is better than the others.

 

That's what stood out to me and what I remember. Anyone else can feel free to fill in the blanks.

[theloveforart]

"however, I did read the first couple and I have made the same questions - about why do so many people on this board always talk about money/value."

 

Ok why do we keep on going back to this....

I personally love John Byrne/ Terry Austin X-men pages, the market shows that the last few interior pages that sold have been between $5000.00 to $16,000.00. For me that is a big chunk of change so YES when purchasing these pages even thou i love them very much i still take into consideration the money/value.

 

If you are telling me just because i love the medium i should not look at the money aspect then i think that is ridiculous.

 

I know alot of collectors buy $100 dollar pages and then preach about not caring about losing money well i would not care about losing that money either but when we are talking about $10,000.00 pages i think people have to take the money aspect into consideration as well.

 

Also can we say "housing market" ??

Well the only reason that happened was because of the greed of your financial Institutions in the US or A because here in Toronto the housing market continues to break records ( a tear down not live-able house goes for $350,000.00. )

[comix4fun]

Also can we say "housing market" ??

Well the only reason that happened was because of the greed of your financial Institutions in the US or A because here in Toronto the housing market continues to break records ( a tear down not live-able house goes for $350,000.00. )

 

 

If the Canadian government passed a law tomorrow mandating that 1/2 of all mortgage loans were given to low income and credit risk candidates, and that those loans could then be sold to the government, I can predict where your housing market will be headed.

 

It would create a market out of securities that were viewed as junk just prior to that law's passage....just like it did over here.

 

That's what happened here, and GLOBAL (i.e. not just American ) banks took up derivative swap positions that leveraged those previously junky securities to levels hundreds of times the size of their true value.

 

The Old US of A ain't got the market cornered on greed. Several entire European countries almost went bankrupt trying to wet their beaks.

 

C

[john h.-migration]

Can you send this post to Felix so I can get the short hand version?

 

Just like the Tiny URL,

 

Felix needs to patent his

 

[font:System] FelixLu[/font][font:Impact]Condensed[/font]

 

 

 

John H.

[dem1138]

 

-- Dan F recalls when the Tony Christopher collection was dispersed, that Kirby values flattened out for a while;

 

-- David Miller disputes this (in the nicest possible, least confrontational, manner);

 

-- Hari gently corrects David and agrees with Dan;

 

 

I would also add that Dan and I went back and forth a few more times and the information discussed was very valuable and I soon came around to (for the most part) agreeing with Dan.

 

I would love to read Mankuta's assesment of the SS covers -- where they are, which ones are the best, etc. -- I'm very sorry that I missed that posting!

[theloveforart]

Hey Chris,

Totally agree with you, even thou i am not a big fan of our government up here in Canada i have to say our financial institutions were alot more stingy with who they gave their mortgages to then a majority of countries. That's why it hasn't been to bad up here (except for the manufacturing industry).

[comix4fun]

Hey Chris,

Totally agree with you, even thou i am not a big fan of our government up here in Canada i have to say our financial institutions were alot more stingy with who they gave their mortgages to then a majority of countries. That's why it hasn't been to bad up here (except for the manufacturing industry).

 

 

Lucky for you guys, you were able to dodge that bullet. It almost brought the entire world's financial institutions down in less than a year.