What's the most you've spent on one piece of art (cash!)?

[heartened]

The extremely high-end of any market is less affected by economic downturns, as most of those people were extremly rich before and are now only very rich They continue to buy because the OA hobby was already a small percent of their spending, and remains so despite the economic downturn.

 

I will likely spend more in 2009 than I did in 2008, which was more than 2007, etc. I'm probably the exception, although it warrants another poll to see if this is true. Problem is that the high-end sales are the ones that make waves, whether or not they are truly representative of what the othe 90% are doing.

 

I don't profess to know what the other 90% are doing, which is why I'm doing these polls. Are they all spending less, or also spending more and more?

 

Hari

 

[westform]

From my experience, they are spending more.... as many of my sales and purchases are no where near the top end of the market. But, having said that, I don't know if individuals are spending more or there are just more people in the hobby in general.

 

I have also found that I am being out bid more and more frequently at Heritage and yes even on Ebay in the $500 to $1500 range. It actually has become frustrating for me as I figured that would be an area where I could pick up bargains, but 99% of the pieces I am targeting are going for more than I expected.

 

Maybe some people are setting their sights lower thereby affecting this segment or once again, maybe there are just more folks competing for those items; impossible to say.

[heartened]

Everyone,

 

I just started a whole new set of polls that may answer some more questions about the OA community. 5 days to vote. Please vote and encourage others to do so, and we should have more answers on Labor Day (when the polling ends).

 

Results will probably fuel a whole new round of questions.

 

Thanks,

 

Hari

 

[dem1138]

Dan and Hari -- I wouldn't say that your points contend with mine or that I'm not realizing what dimensions you are discussing. My post was a reflection of a certain component that you both did a fantastic job of expounding on. I wholeheartedly agree with what both of you (and the rest of you) have had to add. Regardless, this is the best discussion I've read in quite some time. To me, that's best part.

 

Dan, you bring up a very interesting and valid point in discussing soft prices for weaker pieces when you try to sell top examples for aggressive prices. It can be a battle that is difficult to win. I have quietly floated a few pieces here and there and have encountered this same dilemma. This brings up another angle which is that in my experience I have found that in buying/selling that it is feast or famine. Either I buy or sell for top dollar or I can't give away what I'm trying to sell unless I am practically giving it away. Selling OA is not for the meek -- that is for sure! And luckily there have been a few buy/sell deals that have been in between feast/famine -- though it certainly feels like that scenario is more the exception than the norm.

 

Hari, you make an excellent point as well with trade being a increasing component with deals. But that makes me think of Burkey, who is truly a savant in this hobby. Trade to him, in every deal scenario I've followed, actually winds up putting more cash in his pocket than his original asking price. Just wanted to mention that angle because that can often be the case in a trade deal. In the end, trade does not necessarily mean less cash for the deal -- just more time to achieve the cash total.

[malvin]

Everyone,

 

I just started a whole new set of polls that may answer some more questions about the OA community. 5 days to vote. Please vote and encourage others to do so, and we should have more answers on Labor Day (when the polling ends).

 

Results will probably fuel a whole new round of questions.

 

Thanks,

 

Hari

 

I just did the poll. Good questions and fun! I do have an issue with the last question. I plan to be in the hobby a long time, and I plan to have more pieces in the future, but undoubtedly I will sell some to fund future purchases. I had ticked "I will sell some" even though the general thought is to keep everything (as in I'm only selling to buy more pieces)

 

Malvin

[Bronty]

 

I thought we would have seen some drop off in prices this year, but other than one or two flat or slow Heritage auctions, the overall market for OA seems to be climbing once again to new heights.... unfortunately, to heights that may soon price me out of the hobby altogether...

 

Its effectively impossible for you to truly be priced out.... you have enough inventory already to trade for pretty much anything you "have to have" no matter what prices end up being... you may just end up being priced out on all-cash (new cash) purchases for items at the quality level that you are used to, but you're in a better position than most!

[westform]

Well, you are right. I guess I was trying to be succinct, but I should have said that because I've been collecting and wheeling and dealin' for so long I'm pretty much at the point that I am happy with my examples and my collection and so am not as interested in trading most of my 'keepers' and am feeling it ever tougher to add 'new' money into the hobby whether it's to buy new 'keepers' or pieces that I like but would possibly trade away or sell if another more coveted piece comes up. Yes, my income is down a bit because of the economy, my family is getting older and exploring more expensive pursuits of their own, but mostly, prices on the pieces I look at to buy whether they be BWS conan covers or Harvey covers just are at a point that I no longer want to own them. Yes, I could dig deep into the gut check and splurge, but increasingly I'm finding that I don't want to 'be into' say that Smith cover for 50/60k whether it's cash or trade; more than likely, if it came down to it, I would pass on the cover and either keep what I have or put the cash into another real life pursuit... and that goes for $1000 Casper covers too! I also should probably not have used the frowny face because being 'priced out' of the hobby implies leaving and cashing out; but what I really meant was just not buying new things... or nearly as many as before. And, since I'm over the moon happy with my collection and my overall experiences in this hobby I'm pretty much relegated to using the Of course, all this could change on a dime.... if my boys who are growing older start showing some interest in my hobby, in other words start their own collections, then I see the wallet opening up for some time to come. Or, if prices come down significantly on any of the areas I'm interested in then I will be more than happy to provide a 'backstop'. Or if the economy turns around briskly; or if I win the lottery...

 

 

I thought we would have seen some drop off in prices this year, but other than one or two flat or slow Heritage auctions, the overall market for OA seems to be climbing once again to new heights.... unfortunately, to heights that may soon price me out of the hobby altogether...

 

Its effectively impossible for you to truly be priced out.... you have enough inventory already to trade for pretty much anything you "have to have" no matter what prices end up being... you may just end up being priced out on all-cash (new cash) purchases for items at the quality level that you are used to, but you're in a better position than most!

[Bronty]

Well, you are right. I guess I was trying to be succinct, but I should have said that because I've been collecting and wheeling and dealin' for so long I'm pretty much at the point that I am happy with my examples and my collection and so am not as interested in trading most of my 'keepers' and am feeling it ever tougher to add 'new' money into the hobby whether it's to buy new 'keepers' or pieces that I like but would possibly trade away or sell if another more coveted piece comes up. Yes, my income is down a bit because of the economy, my family is getting older and exploring more expensive pursuits of their own, but mostly, prices on the pieces I look at to buy whether they be BWS conan covers or Harvey covers just are at a point that I no longer want to own them. Yes, I could dig deep into the gut check and splurge, but increasingly I'm finding that I don't want to 'be into' say that Smith cover for 50/60k whether it's cash or trade; more than likely, if it came down to it, I would pass on the cover and either keep what I have or put the cash into another real life pursuit... and that goes for $1000 Casper covers too! I also should probably not have used the frowny face because being 'priced out' of the hobby implies leaving and cashing out; but what I really meant was just not buying new things... or nearly as many as before. And, since I'm over the moon happy with my collection and my overall experiences in this hobby I'm pretty much relegated to using the Of course, all this could change on a dime.... if my boys who are growing older start showing some interest in my hobby, in other words start their own collections, then I see the wallet opening up for some time to come. Or, if prices come down significantly on any of the areas I'm interested in then I will be more than happy to provide a 'backstop'. Or if the economy turns around briskly; or if I win the lottery...

 

 

I thought we would have seen some drop off in prices this year, but other than one or two flat or slow Heritage auctions, the overall market for OA seems to be climbing once again to new heights.... unfortunately, to heights that may soon price me out of the hobby altogether...

 

Its effectively impossible for you to truly be priced out.... you have enough inventory already to trade for pretty much anything you "have to have" no matter what prices end up being... you may just end up being priced out on all-cash (new cash) purchases for items at the quality level that you are used to, but you're in a better position than most!

 

yeah I hear you. This kind of thing isn't really limited to art though. I stopped collecting comics circa 02 and started chasing other pursuits for the same reason, pretty much. I just didn't want to own the books I wanted at the prices they were going for. That's OK. That sort of thing keeps us from getting stale and makes us chase new things whether in collecting or in real life. So to summarize, please send me your spidey 37 splash

[bocaratondefense]

Initially I was surprised to see the poll results and see so many people have purchased OA for over $100K cash. In fact, when I saw four people break the $150K cash barrier, I though some of these were KK shill votes for sure.

 

But when I sat there to think about it, maybe six figures is not that much money for comic art afterall. Nowadays it seems like all half-decent SA splashes are six figures or near six figures.

 

Kirby X-Men 2 splash $150K

Batman Christmas splash $90K

Kirby JIM 84 Thor splash $100K

Ditko Dr. Strange splash in SD $100K

Ditko ASM splash in SD $125K

 

All of these are nice, but none of them are truly the marquee pages in this hobby. If these are six figures, then in the OA hobby, there must be dozens more out there that exceed that level. If the entire hobby had participated in the poll, the results might have been even more skewed towards the high end..

[dem1138]

All I'll say is that asking prices do not equal actual value on the examples that you listed.

[ashsaytr]

umm...$600!

[alxjhnsn]

ummm - $2500

 

It was a charity auction for Modest Needs arranged by Metropolis. Joe Kubert would draw one character for the winner. Since it was for charity and since getting a JK commission is like finding hen's teeth, my lovely wife let me run it up. We figured it would count towards our charitable giving anyway.

 

I lost by $10. I just gave up.

 

However, JK offered to do another if I'd match the winning bid. That took a couple of seconds to accept.

 

So, I won this:

 

 

If you visit my CAF (Sgt Rock) , you can read the entire story and see the other pieces - Hawkman by Kubert and two Romita Spider-man drawings. Neat stuff.

 

I forgot to mention that Heritage estimated its auction value at about $600; I asked for tax purposes. I'm not planning to make money on my artwork so I don't care. I think it is a terrific drawing.

 

I recently went a lot higher for a Curt Swan LSH cover (my highest grail) in the Shuster House charity auction, but it ended up in David Mandel's wonderful collection. Sigh...

 

Oh, well. The house got fixed up.

[ashsaytr]

that is a freaking sweet piece!

[Nexus]

Dan, you bring up a very interesting and valid point in discussing soft prices for weaker pieces when you try to sell top examples for aggressive prices. It can be a battle that is difficult to win. I have quietly floated a few pieces here and there and have encountered this same dilemma.

 

To me, this is also an "elephant in the room"-- sellers who THINK (or want you to think) they have top examples and try to get aggressive prices for them. For example, I was offered a nice (but far from great) page for $4K from a seller in 2005. The same seller is now shopping the page at $6K. My own estimation is that this was *maybe* a $3K page in 2005 and *maybe* a $4K page now. Again, it's hardly a "top example"...but the seller is treating it like one, despite not finding a buyer in 4+ years.

 

(Although I guess this does dovetail with your earlier point about sellers using "top example" pricing to pump up values for weaker ones.)

 

This brings up another angle which is that in my experience I have found that in buying/selling that it is feast or famine. Either I buy or sell for top dollar or I can't give away what I'm trying to sell unless I am practically giving it away. Selling OA is not for the meek -- that is for sure! And luckily there have been a few buy/sell deals that have been in between feast/famine -- though it certainly feels like that scenario is more the exception than the norm.

 

OK, another elephant-- "collectors" who believe they MUST profit on every piece they decide to sell. For me, profit is great, but mostly, it's enough to just get out what I have into a piece. I'll take a loss if I have to. Not ideal...but this is a hobby. I can tell right away the collectors who view OA as a hobby from those who view it as a money-making enterprise.

 

Hari, you make an excellent point as well with trade being a increasing component with deals. But that makes me think of Burkey, who is truly a savant in this hobby. Trade to him, in every deal scenario I've followed, actually winds up putting more cash in his pocket than his original asking price. Just wanted to mention that angle because that can often be the case in a trade deal. In the end, trade does not necessarily mean less cash for the deal -- just more time to achieve the cash total.

 

Burkey is extremely savvy, but he's not alone in this tactic. Just about every dealer I've dealt with has inquired about trade first, before cash. This is especially true of the Donnellys. The first time I did a trade with a dealer (because I didn't want to spend the cash), I realized shortly after that I would have done much better had *I* just Ebay'd what I traded myself. I could have bought the piece I wanted outright with plenty of cash left over. Lesson learned.

[comix4fun]

So Felix,

 

Got anything you wanna trade?

[Nexus]

So Felix,

 

Got anything you wanna trade?

 

 

PM sent

 

[dem1138]

This brings up another angle which is that in my experience I have found that in buying/selling that it is feast or famine. Either I buy or sell for top dollar or I can't give away what I'm trying to sell unless I am practically giving it away. Selling OA is not for the meek -- that is for sure! And luckily there have been a few buy/sell deals that have been in between feast/famine -- though it certainly feels like that scenario is more the exception than the norm.

 

, another elephant-- "collectors" who believe they MUST profit on every piece they decide to sell. For me, profit is great, but mostly, it's enough to just get out what I have into a piece. I'll take a loss if I have to. Not ideal...but this is a hobby. I can tell right away the collectors who view OA as a hobby from those who view it as a money-making enterprise.

 

But why can't a person be both? Why does it have to be such a black or white issue? You and I both have bought and sold a ton of art but we are also collectors who truly enjoy the hobby. Sure there are extremes -- people who are only in it for the money or only in it for the hobby -- but most every collector I know (99.9% of them and I know many) has bought, sold, and traded for profit on at least one occasion. There's a ton of grey area and there's no way those terms are mutually exclusive.

[irchooker]

But why can't a person be both?

 

You can be both. The more interesting point Felix made was the mentality that people must turn a profit on every piece that moves through their collection. I've made money on some and lost money on others. That's the way it goes. I hate taking a big hit, but 20% of a $250 page isn't the end of the world.

[dem1138]

Pieces have been sold to me at cost and I have returned the favor on more than one occasion. Paying it forward is a good thing.

[Nexus]

This brings up another angle which is that in my experience I have found that in buying/selling that it is feast or famine. Either I buy or sell for top dollar or I can't give away what I'm trying to sell unless I am practically giving it away. Selling OA is not for the meek -- that is for sure! And luckily there have been a few buy/sell deals that have been in between feast/famine -- though it certainly feels like that scenario is more the exception than the norm.

 

, another elephant-- "collectors" who believe they MUST profit on every piece they decide to sell. For me, profit is great, but mostly, it's enough to just get out what I have into a piece. I'll take a loss if I have to. Not ideal...but this is a hobby. I can tell right away the collectors who view OA as a hobby from those who view it as a money-making enterprise.

 

But why can't a person be both? Why does it have to be such a black or white issue? You and I both have bought and sold a ton of art but we are also collectors who truly enjoy the hobby. Sure there are extremes -- people who are only in it for the money or only in it for the hobby -- but most every collector I know (99.9% of them and I know many) has bought, sold, and traded for profit on at least one occasion. There's a ton of grey area and there's no way those terms are mutually exclusive.

 

You and I have talked about this privately at length, but it's been a while and you may have forgotten...

 

No doubt, everyone is here because they love the art form of comics and comic art. And, yes, we've all sold art to varying degrees (although how we go about it is another issue entirely). And, no, I have no problem with profit when it happens organically (without any assistance from undue hype and/or shenanigans which just needlessly raises the market for everyone).

 

However...

 

I cannot be friends with "collectors" in the hobby whose primary motivation is profit. You may consider this a "grey area", but it is very obvious to me. It's a matter of trust. I can't trust those who have an agenda. I can't trust those who will use information I give them to potentially profit off me or others.

 

I'll give an example.

 

Collector A and Collector B are friends. Collector A knows Collector B likes Miller DD. Collector A then finds a prime example in a buried collection. He shows a scan to Collector B. Collector B wants it. Collector B will pay $10K for it.

 

Now...if Collector A was a real friend, wouldn't he just introduce Collector B to the seller?

 

Instead, Collector A inserts himself as a middleman. He tries to negotiate the best price possible with the seller by saying the piece is a "grail" for his "collection" and that he'll "love it forever". He ends up getting it for $8K.

 

He then sells it to Collector B for $10K.

 

Hardly the most egregious example of greed in this hobby. But I could not be friends with someone like Collector A.