What's the most you've spent on one piece of art (cash!)?

[Jesusjon]

How about this for a scenario...

Someone you've known for about a year calls you. Not friends really but you've done some transactions and have had the usual art discussions. They called because there is a piece they want and it's something they know is exactly up your alley, something you'd want for your self and art you specialize in. Because you've been at collecting OA longer, they figured you'd know where it is. They've never seen the original art, they don't even know if it exists. The exact words used are "can you do me a favor and help me find this".

 

Well, in the spirit of doing a fellow collector a favor, you find the page. It's something you would definitely want for yourself but instead of working out the deal for yourself, you negotiate a good price, contact the guy that asked and tell him where to get it and how much it will be. The price is a little over 1/2 what he was originally willing to spend. He says "great, do you want a finder's fee" and you say "No, you asked me for a favor and I'm doing this as a favor. Just please if you're ever going to sell it, let me know."

 

Four months go by and you get an email. The guy has changed his mind and his entire collecting focus and is now selling the page. He contacted you first. You say great, how much. The price is now full retail and considerably more than the deal you got for him just four months ago. When you protest, the answer is "Nothing personal, just business."

 

What's the proper reaction there?

 

Ruben

http://www.collectingfool.com

 

Chris - I don't do public outings. I will talk about any transaction I've done but even if I feel wronged I'm not naming names publicly. This whole thing started almost 4 years ago and if I didn't say anything then, I'm not saying it now. They can come forward on their own. As for my reaction, I just reread my emails to make sure I was being accurate and my exact response was "Dude, this is screwed up!" followed by (much to my surprise) not a single vulgarity.

 

Hari - Are you sure you don't have any acquaintances like this? I think you might.

 

Ruben

http://www.collectingfool.com

 

 

I've seen Ruben allude to this encounter we had several years ago a couple times and want to fess up, both to provide some context, and hopefully to smooth things over with him, which I have tried to do a couple times since. I PM'ed you privately, Ruben, to discuss in the past, but you did not respond, which was fine too.

 

Ruben's facts are accurate here and I'm not going to add anything to those facts, just a bit of color. We were in a period where we had a phone conversation or two as well so it wasn't all in email. The piece in question was a Vess Books of Magic page that Morpheus appeared on. I mentioned a bunch of stuff I was interested in and liked and wished I could locate, this among them. To my surprise he came back to me and said he could secure this piece for $800, which I knew was under market. I was also surprised he was passing on it for my benefit.

 

Flash forward the 4 months. I had dropped $45K of new cash into the market and was reeling from the obsession that I realized I could not afford. (no excuses - it was my bad) I got taken in a deal or three myself, so if anyone is concerned about karma, I got what was coming to me. (no excuses - I was an insufficiently_thoughtful_person more often than not that first year or two) The point is, I set about to sell A LOT of art to get out of trouble and needed to get every single dollar I could. I offered Ruben the piece for $2K. Having seen what prices could be realized in the market and knowing I could get this price from another friend I knew $2K was what I needed. Note that at this point I was pacing to be underwater about $10K on other art, so I needed to make up ground on this piece and several others.

 

He reacted so strongly and negatively to this that we did not negotiate further. At that stage in my life I could not see passing up $1200 cash for a favor. Would I now? Sure. But I don't have the crushing weight of $10's of thousands of credit card debt on my shoulders. See, I paid it off by selling art. I got myself into trouble and I got myself out of trouble, and did what I had to to make things right in my life, which is far more important than this hobby.

 

I'm really sorry, Ruben, that that transaction couldn't be about more than just business. You did me a favor and I could not repay it in kind at the time. We have never met, but I would welcome the opportunity to take you to dinner to discuss this (or not! ) or our mutual obsession.

 

If anyone has a problem with what I did, I invite you to have a discussion with me about it, on the phone, or in person here in NYC, or if I happen to be traveling in your hood. Or feel free to just think of me as a bad person and never do an art deal with me ever ever. I certainly won't hold it against you!

 

Peace,

 

Jonathan

[bocaratondefense]

We all move OA because we change focus or sometimes deals necessitate some trade. If you make a lot of deals, OA get moved quickly at times, and that is all in the spirit of perfecting a collection. That's normal. Of course, if a page is worth $20,000, I would never expect anyone to take their $16,000 cost basis for it in the name of friendship. That would be equivalent of writing a check for $4,000 as a gift.

 

But then you have the flippers, middle-men, and brokers in this hobby. We all know who they are. They're the ones that interject themselves in a deal, knowing they can make a quick buck as a middle-man, rather than simply direct their "friends" to the original source. That is fines and there is nothing illegal about these semi-professional dealers, but like Felix said, these are not the guys I would characterize as friends.

 

 

[mister_not_so_nice]

Ruben's facts are accurate here and I'm not going to add anything to those facts, just a bit of color. We were in a period where we had a phone conversation or two as well so it wasn't all in email. The piece in question was a Vess Books of Magic page that Morpheus appeared on. I mentioned a bunch of stuff I was interested in and liked and wished I could locate, this among them. To my surprise he came back to me and said he could secure this piece for $800, which I knew was under market. I was also surprised he was passing on it for my benefit.

 

Peace,

 

Jonathan

 

One of my favorite parts of the hobby is interacting with "friends" I have made through our common collecting interest. Some I have met in person, and some I may never meet. These people somehow know about my interest in a certain title and have passed seller contact info to me on more than one occasion. Here are a couple of pieces I have been fortunate to get without any middleman interaction. Judge for yourself by the date and price whether they left money on the table or not.

 

$193 SHIPPED - 2007

$200 - 2007

$200 - 2007

$300 - 2006

$300 - 2006

$300 - 2006

$300 - 2006

 

I think you get the idea

And I don't mind publicly posting what I paid because I won't sell them, and if I do the mark-up will be steep to be sure (thumbs u

 

Those guys always will get a deal from me and I try to return the favor to them whenever possible.

 

[jbud73]

Really interesting discussion, if I've learned anything in the years I've been in the comics collectible market, its "DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE -

 

Oh you want it for your collection, it's your grail, you need it to finish your run of (Adams pedigree Batman Covers) etc.... Well you can have it for what I want to sell it for, because..... what if you're "collecting focus changes (I love that one ), you're 2nd cousins' husband's, uncle's dog needs surgery and you had to sell ... etc do you owe me anything because I gave you a deal? No, do I owe you anything because "It's your grail and will never sell it?" No (or only if I decide to and if I do then I shouldn't expect anything in return) Forever after all is a loooong time.

 

Again whether you're a buyer (I could go into the cliche's buyer hear all the time like,"well I'm accepting offers and if I don't get my price it goes back into my collection where it will never see the light of day again) or a seller the trick is to try and avoid being swayed as much as possible by emotive plays to anything. This is a tall order in nostalgia based transactions - I know I have failed miserably as a buyer in the past, but have learned tremendously from those experiences.

 

It's always nice if gestures are returned in a karmic sense, but don't EXPECT it to happen because karma after all can be a .

 

[CollectingFool]

Since Jonathan has come forward to add his "color" to it I'll add a few tidbits of color myself to give you an impression of how things looked from my end. Jonathan came onto the scene and was a Sandman-art buying dynamo. I met him online because he bought a page or two of Sandman art from me. I then helped him find/introduced him to people I knew that also had Sandman art (not as a middleman, no profit for me). I was happy to do it and I've done the same for countless other collectors.

 

Now anyone that knows me, really knows me, knows I'm not wealthy. I have my mountain of debt I chip away at because I'd rather have art and carry that large debt load than liquidate everything. I've had to sacrifice pieces I thought I'd never sell because massive unexpected debts have popped up. I am by no means in a position where I can easily pass on hundreds or thousands of dollars in profit.

 

At the time Jonathan decided to sell off this page he was liquidating his Sandman art. He sold every piece I either sold him or helped him get at large profits. I had no problem with this. My only problem was with the Vess BoM Sandman page specifically. When it came to that page, he asked me as a friend for a favor. And as a friend I did him that favor. To tell me a few months later that the friendship he needed to get that page has now expired and the transaction is only business is what set me off. It's not about the money. I've paid a hell of a lot more than $2K for things I've wanted. If friendship was a switch that could be turned on or off depending on which way the money was flowing then he played me for a chump and I was one for doing the favor in the first place.

 

Remember, this was also especially surprising for me because there were several emails between us with comments like "Thank you once again Ruben for the advice" or "I respect your opinions, I appreciate the help" or even asking advice on modifying his approach to soliciting art from other collectors. All of this led me to believe these were more than just business transactions. After all, how many business associates do any of us have we can continually call on for advice that has nothing to do with them specifically and doesn't benefit them?

 

So, in the end, I passed on the page and I actually did so in the most polite way I could muster while still intimating my feelings on the issue. I passed on it because at that point I'd rather burn the $2K cash than give it to him for that page. Not because of the money but because of what the markup signified. If he thought I had "reacted strongly" then he has no clue who I am and what a strong reaction really is. I know he got screwed over by other collectors and I know he was in debt. None of that had anything to do with me or any transaction I was party to. He chose to do what he did and in doing so showed his true colors. I didn't respond to his apology three years later in a PM because I now see things clearly and regardless of the circumstances, I don't associate with someone that would do things like that.

 

That's the last I'll say on the subject. All the skeletons are out of the closet on this one.

 

Ruben

http://www.collectingfool.com

[DNAgent]

 

 

I've seen Ruben allude to this encounter we had several years ago a couple times and want to fess up, both to provide some context, and hopefully to smooth things over with him, which I have tried to do a couple times since. I PM'ed you privately, Ruben, to discuss in the past, but you did not respond, which was fine too.

 

Ruben's facts are accurate here and I'm not going to add anything to those facts, just a bit of color. We were in a period where we had a phone conversation or two as

EDIT

I'm really sorry, Ruben, that that transaction couldn't be about more than just business. You did me a favor and I could not repay it in kind at the time. We have never met, but I would welcome the opportunity to take you to dinner to discuss this (or not! ) or our mutual obsession.

 

If anyone has a problem with what I did, I invite you to have a discussion with me about it, on the phone, or in person here in NYC, or if I happen to be traveling in your hood. Or feel free to just think of me as a bad person and never do an art deal with me ever ever. I certainly won't hold it against you!

 

Peace,

 

Jonathan

 

That post took balls, good on ya mate...

[Erato]

 

One of my favorite parts of the hobby is interacting with "friends" I have made through our common collecting interest. Some I have met in person, and some I may never meet. These people somehow know about my interest in a certain title and have passed seller contact info to me on more than one occasion.

 

 

This is so very true. I don't travel the country going to cons. I tend to be limited to online auctions, dealer websites and connections I've made through places like here and CAF.

 

Some of the people I have met here and at CAF have been very helpful in securing pieces for me and/or pointing me in the right direction of some pages of my favorite artist(s). Some have even gone out of their way to help me out.

 

For all the talk of Backstabbing and Shady Deals and Such, I have had mostly good experiences with the OA community. Perhaps I'm fortunate in that. I may be a small fish in a big pond, but I have been swimming here for 11 years and enjoyed every minute.

 

Brian

 

 

 

 

[Brian Peck]

I have always like helping out fellow collectors in finding art or just general comic art info. Do something nice to others and they might be able to do the same for you sometime. Besides its fun helping others get pieces they covet.

[Erato]

I have always like helping out fellow collectors in finding art or just general comic art info. Do something nice to others and they might be able to do the same for you sometime. Besides its fun helping others get pieces they covet.

 

Besides, Us Brian's gotta stick together!! (thumbs u

 

Brian

[chrisco37]

If anyone has a problem with what I did, I invite you to have a discussion with me about it, on the phone, or in person here in NYC,

 

I may want to discuss this with you.

 

Will you be taking me out to dinner to discuss? Where? (please note that the answer to these questions will determine if I would like to have said discussion).

[comicartfan]

if someone offers to broker a deal for me, I assume there's something in it for them.

 

Not always.....I am a big believer in helping out another collector as much as I can within reason. I am not saying I've never made a profit or sold something that someone sold me that I originally intended to keep. But I do believe in "what goes around, comes around"......

 

I've had some people try and take full advantage of a situation. There was a collector (dealer wanna-be) who would make "notes" of certain books that I was looking for...We were friends, so I thought....Then all of a sudden, the book I was looking for , he had...for sale....It happened again and again.....I was a little slow on the take, but eventually the blood got to my head and I cut ties.....

 

Course, I have had some incredible generous collectors who have really gone out of their way to make a collecting goal feasible for me.....

 

As a side note, I give props to Jonathan for coming forward. He certainly didn't have to do so, but at the same time there is two sides to this story. It sounds like Ruben felt taken advantage of and Jonathan was mearly consumed with the idea of getting things paid off. Ruben stated that he doesn't mind carrying some debt, but other people are obsessed with paying it off....It (debt) keeps them up at night. We're all different.

 

By any accounts, to stress out over this type of stuff is trival. If you do, then you're going to take all the enjoyment out of the hobby. As collectors, anyone who's been in this hobby for any length of time is going to have all sorts of stories...deals we lost our shirts on, pieces we should have bought, pieces that "got away" only to disappear, deals that have soured, items we sold we regret and so on......

 

The old saying, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen is so true....Moving on and not dwelling on things is key to staying in and enjoying the best hobby ever.....

 

[westform]

Perhaps a but a darn good one! (thumbs u

 

if someone offers to broker a deal for me, I assume there's something in it for them.

 

Not always.....I am a big believer in helping out another collector as much as I can within reason. I am not saying I've never made a profit or sold something that someone sold me that I originally intended to keep. But I do believe in "what goes around, comes around"......

 

I've had some people try and take full advantage of a situation. There was a collector (dealer wanna-be) who would make "notes" of certain books that I was looking for...We were friends, so I thought....Then all of a sudden, the book I was looking for , he had...for sale....It happened again and again.....I was a little slow on the take, but eventually the blood got to my head and I cut ties.....

 

Course, I have had some incredible generous collectors who have really gone out of their way to make a collecting goal feasible for me.....

 

As a side note, I give props to Jonathan for coming forward. He certainly didn't have to do so, but at the same time there is two sides to this story. It sounds like Ruben felt taken advantage of and Jonathan was mearly consumed with the idea of getting things paid off. Ruben stated that he doesn't mind carrying some debt, but other people are obsessed with paying it off....It (debt) keeps them up at night. We're all different.

 

By any accounts, to stress out over this type of stuff is trival. If you do, then you're going to take all the enjoyment out of the hobby. As collectors, anyone who's been in this hobby for any length of time is going to have all sorts of stories...deals we lost our shirts on, pieces we should have bought, pieces that "got away" only to disappear, deals that have soured, items we sold we regret and so on......

 

The old saying, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen is so true....Moving on and not dwelling on things is key to staying in and enjoying the best hobby ever.....

 

[tth2]

How about this for a scenario...

Someone you've known for about a year calls you. Not friends really but you've done some transactions and have had the usual art discussions. They called because there is a piece they want and it's something they know is exactly up your alley, something you'd want for your self and art you specialize in. Because you've been at collecting OA longer, they figured you'd know where it is. They've never seen the original art, they don't even know if it exists. The exact words used are "can you do me a favor and help me find this".

 

Well, in the spirit of doing a fellow collector a favor, you find the page. It's something you would definitely want for yourself but instead of working out the deal for yourself, you negotiate a good price, contact the guy that asked and tell him where to get it and how much it will be. The price is a little over 1/2 what he was originally willing to spend. He says "great, do you want a finder's fee" and you say "No, you asked me for a favor and I'm doing this as a favor. Just please if you're ever going to sell it, let me know."

 

Four months go by and you get an email. The guy has changed his mind and his entire collecting focus and is now selling the page. He contacted you first. You say great, how much. The price is now full retail and considerably more than the deal you got for him just four months ago. When you protest, the answer is "Nothing personal, just business."

 

What's the proper reaction there?

 

Ruben

http://www.collectingfool.com

 

Chris - I don't do public outings. I will talk about any transaction I've done but even if I feel wronged I'm not naming names publicly. This whole thing started almost 4 years ago and if I didn't say anything then, I'm not saying it now. They can come forward on their own. As for my reaction, I just reread my emails to make sure I was being accurate and my exact response was "Dude, this is screwed up!" followed by (much to my surprise) not a single vulgarity.

 

Hari - Are you sure you don't have any acquaintances like this? I think you might.

 

Ruben

http://www.collectingfool.com

 

 

I've seen Ruben allude to this encounter we had several years ago a couple times and want to fess up, both to provide some context, and hopefully to smooth things over with him, which I have tried to do a couple times since. I PM'ed you privately, Ruben, to discuss in the past, but you did not respond, which was fine too.

 

Ruben's facts are accurate here and I'm not going to add anything to those facts, just a bit of color. We were in a period where we had a phone conversation or two as well so it wasn't all in email. The piece in question was a Vess Books of Magic page that Morpheus appeared on. I mentioned a bunch of stuff I was interested in and liked and wished I could locate, this among them. To my surprise he came back to me and said he could secure this piece for $800, which I knew was under market. I was also surprised he was passing on it for my benefit.

 

Flash forward the 4 months. I had dropped $45K of new cash into the market and was reeling from the obsession that I realized I could not afford. (no excuses - it was my bad) I got taken in a deal or three myself, so if anyone is concerned about karma, I got what was coming to me. (no excuses - I was an insufficiently_thoughtful_person more often than not that first year or two) The point is, I set about to sell A LOT of art to get out of trouble and needed to get every single dollar I could. I offered Ruben the piece for $2K. Having seen what prices could be realized in the market and knowing I could get this price from another friend I knew $2K was what I needed. Note that at this point I was pacing to be underwater about $10K on other art, so I needed to make up ground on this piece and several others.

 

He reacted so strongly and negatively to this that we did not negotiate further. At that stage in my life I could not see passing up $1200 cash for a favor. Would I now? Sure. But I don't have the crushing weight of $10's of thousands of credit card debt on my shoulders. See, I paid it off by selling art. I got myself into trouble and I got myself out of trouble, and did what I had to to make things right in my life, which is far more important than this hobby.

 

I'm really sorry, Ruben, that that transaction couldn't be about more than just business. You did me a favor and I could not repay it in kind at the time. We have never met, but I would welcome the opportunity to take you to dinner to discuss this (or not! ) or our mutual obsession.

 

If anyone has a problem with what I did, I invite you to have a discussion with me about it, on the phone, or in person here in NYC, or if I happen to be traveling in your hood. Or feel free to just think of me as a bad person and never do an art deal with me ever ever. I certainly won't hold it against you!

 

Peace,

 

Jonathan

Well, if you have the money now, then the least you could do is mail Ruben a check for half of the profits from the book. Yes, I know with him it`s not the money, but at least some sort of gesture by you would be good.

[comicartfan]

Well, if you have the money now, then the least you could do is mail Ruben a check for half of the profits from the book. Yes, I know with him it`s not the money, but at least some sort of gesture by you would be good.

 

I have a problem with this statement. One, while Ruben did feel slighted and whether or not he felt he was justified is open for debate. Jonathan sold the page and made a profitt....From what I gather, they had a casual relationship based on a few conversations and not a "real friendship".....If I sent a check to every person I bought a piece of art from that I made a profit from, then I would be homeless...

 

What guidelines do you follow and say "This person deserves a check, this one doesn't.?.....If I buy a piece from a board member here, then make a profit, should I send him half based on a few emails and maybe a phone call ? -

 

And another instance, there is collector on here that I have bought a few things from and with whom my brother bought a couple of high end pieces based on my recommendations....I bought a couple of pieces from him that I ended up selling for about a loss of $1 K.....Should the original seller send me a check cause I "overpaid?!!"......Of course not...It's a collectible and there are days when the same piece could go for much more than you paid or much less...It's a risk and hopefully in the end, we all come out slight ahead....

 

[tth2]

Don`t get your panties in a twist, it was just a suggestion to Jon since he`s the one saying that he did what he did because of his financial difficulties at the time, which he`s apparently past now.

[comicartfan]

It isn't a matter of getting "my panties in a twist".....I was mearly commenting on a comment you made. As much as you are entitled to voice your opinion, on a public outlet, I too am allowed.

 

It wasn't meant to be personal nor meant to -

 

The problem with these boards (and message boards in general) is that people can't disagree and have a discussion without turning juvenille.....

[NelsonAI]

...... I have not put myself in that position, and doubt I ever would. I would not get a piece of art for someone else when I myself covet that particular art.

 

 

There is always going to be a time where 2 friends are interested in the same piece of artwork. Nothing wrong with obtaining the art for your own collection.

 

If it's something I have no interest in obtaining for my collection, I'm more than happy to help someone out. Over the years, I have helped people out without receiving any benefit. Others have done the same for me. I do believe in karma.

 

Now, if a friend obtains something for his collection that I covet, I'm happy for him. There is so much art out there that I just don't get worked up about missing out. As I get older, I don't feel a need to chase after anything anymore and I've learned to appreciate art even if I don't own it.

 

"Grail" is such an overused term in this hobby that I find it hard to believe anyone when they throw that term out.

 

Cheers!

N

 

[Nexus]

Wow, is this ever a litmus test for friendship in the hobby-- when two friends come across a piece they both want at the exact same time. Who blinks?

 

This is why when something shows up on Ebay that I like, I don't mention it to anyone. And I'd prefer no one tell me, either. I'd rather just make my best (snipe ) bid and let the chips fall where they may.

 

I've never asked anyone to step aside on an auction so I'd have a better chance of winning. But I've been asked. And there's nothing more than watching that person lose with a low-ball bid. So my stipulation these days is...you'd better win!

 

In general, there should be some give-and-take. If two friends consistently find art they both like, it's probably a good idea for the sake of the friendship to at least take turns.

 

(As an aside, I'd like to say that Michael/comicartfan did me a major solid a few years ago when I was new to this hobby and asked for nothing in return. Total class act. I haven't forgotten...thanks Michael!)

[Khazano]

...... I have not put myself in that position, and doubt I ever would. I would not get a piece of art for someone else when I myself covet that particular art.

 

 

Now, if a friend obtains something for his collection that I covet, I'm happy for him. There is so much art out there that I just don't get worked up about missing out. As I get older, I don't feel a need to chase after anything anymore and I've learned to appreciate art even if I don't own it.

 

N

 

Id rather see it go in a friends collection, because, lets face it, a lot of us are in this hobby for the long haul. Whose to say after xx # of years, he wont want too sell it, and since he's your friend, wont give you A> first shot and B> a half decent deal. Sure it may not play out that way, but said piece could also be in the hands of say... One Stephen Donnelly... Where you're organs are the only way to get it.

[comix4fun]

Wow, is this ever a litmus test for friendship in the hobby-- when two friends come across a piece they both want at the exact same time. Who blinks?

 

This is why when something shows up on Ebay that I like, I don't mention it to anyone. And I'd prefer no one tell me, either. I'd rather just make my best (snipe ) bid and let the chips fall where they may.

 

I've never asked anyone to step aside on an auction so I'd have a better chance of winning. But I've been asked. And there's nothing more than watching that person lose with a low-ball bid. So my stipulation these days is...you'd better win!

 

In general, there should be some give-and-take. If two friends consistently find art they both like, it's probably a good idea for the sake of the friendship to at least take turns.

 

(As an aside, I'd like to say that Michael/comicartfan did me a major solid a few years ago when I was new to this hobby and asked for nothing in return. Total class act. I haven't forgotten...thanks Michael!)

 

 

And I'd like to say that Felix did me a major major solid on a piece we both wanted a short while ago. He didn't have to, but he did it anyway. I haven't forgotten that either...and I won't.

 

C