NFS

[Meeley Man]

James,

 

I do not disagree with you that those are valid possible reasons why the OP never received offer. I just think that jumping immediately to what can seem negative reactions is not healthy to the community.

 

Yes, the reasons are "legion" as you say. I guess I prefer to think the community takes a more positive bent.

 

Brian

 

Brian:

 

I can appreciate your feelings on that. However, given what you saw slung at me here on this topic a few pages back, you'll have a near-impossible task of making me see the positive in this community as anything but an "exception." I do appreciate those exceptions, mind you, but it will take something much more substancial to change my feelings.

[Bronty]

near-impossible task of making me see

 

we agree on at least one thing

[Erato]

James,

 

I do not disagree with you that those are valid possible reasons why the OP never received offer. I just think that jumping immediately to what can seem negative reactions is not healthy to the community.

 

Yes, the reasons are "legion" as you say. I guess I prefer to think the community takes a more positive bent.

 

Brian

 

Brian:

 

I can appreciate your feelings on that. However, given what you saw slung at me here on this topic a few pages back, you'll have a near-impossible task of making me see the positive in this community as anything but an "exception." I do appreciate those exceptions, mind you, but it will take something much more substancial to change my feelings.

 

James,

 

You are a respected and valued member of the community. A representative of artists and a veteran collector who is accustomed to dealing with the OA community. In the past you have admitted to me your love of wheeling and dealing as you put it.

 

My one concern, is in these forums and others I have seen you at, you have often represented the doom and gloom of the evils of the OA community at large. I do not know what happened to make you so assertive and (pardon me but this is how it appears to my reading) negative.

 

Others may disagree with me, I just move on. No need to get defensive/aggressive when my opinions aren't agreed with.

 

I am sorry if you truly feel the majority of this community is negative. I see it otherwise. Perhaps I am fortunate in that.... But I've been doing this for over 11 years and in that time I've had many deals, auctions, personal trades etc. Only one of them was in the least bit sour.

 

I may not be very vocal on these or other boards, but when I am I feel a great sense of shared community, mostly moving a conversation forward. The times these threads get circular - I again, Move On.

 

You say that people new to the hobby get frustrated because people allow NFS inquiries and scare them (the new blood) away from fear of lowballing or overpricing... I fear your negative view of the community does the very same thing you are rallying against.

 

Life is too short to be petty, angry, or pessimistic. Once again, In My Opinion.

 

I hope your feelings that the posters here are out to get you, or overly negative towards your views does not keep you from enjoying the hobby. Let it go, move on... That's my only advice.

 

Brian

[stinkininkin]

Now, my question... did I do something wrong here? My original e-mail was not one stating that I wanted particular pieces right now, just a general feeler to keep me in mind into the future. The pages offered were the worst of the group that I had asked about, and it would be arguable whether or not they were actually worth what he'd originally paid. Surely there must be some situations where the "premium" rule doesn't apply for a generic piece that is anything but premium... or are there?

 

You did nothing wrong. The owner of said pages was being a jerk in that reply. You have nothing to feel ashamed of, or feel at fault for. (thumbs u

 

Wow, we actually do agree on occasion James. The owner of the pages was being a spooning jerk, and does not have a clue. Just a bad collector.

 

Scott Williams

[Claudio]

Now, my question... did I do something wrong here? My original e-mail was not one stating that I wanted particular pieces right now, just a general feeler to keep me in mind into the future. The pages offered were the worst of the group that I had asked about, and it would be arguable whether or not they were actually worth what he'd originally paid. Surely there must be some situations where the "premium" rule doesn't apply for a generic piece that is anything but premium... or are there?

 

You did nothing wrong. The owner of said pages was being a jerk in that reply. You have nothing to feel ashamed of, or feel at fault for. (thumbs u

 

Wow, we actually do agree on occasion James. The owner of the pages was being a spooning jerk, and does not have a clue. Just a bad collector.

 

Scott Williams

 

I agree with everyone here... Oh wait. Is HokieGAK talking about me? Well, nevermind then!

 

I was contacted about my Y: The Last Man pages and I offered two up for sale. He asked me how much and I actually decided on a price ($300 for 2 pages). He thought it was too much and countered me for $200 since that was what I paid for them from Pia Guerra. I politely told him that there were differences in exchange rates so that is why they are priced higher. I believe the dollar and CAD were equal when I bought them and that when he was inquiring, the CAD had dropped in value.

 

I also told him than when inquiring people usually pay premiums. Not that I wasn't really asking for a premium but he had been getting a reputation as a lowballer so I kind of threw it out there. I think he saw me making 50 bucks on the deal and he wasn't willing to pay that. I was actually going to make $6 (or something like that- I am not going to go back and calculate everything out again) since he never factored in the shipping from Canada to me and the shipping I would have to pay to get it out to him. I never bothered to point out the shipping costs because I didn't want to get caught haggling and wasting time. I knew that I could post them here and CAF and get someone to pick them up. I was right. They both sold. Aaaand it couldn't have been priced too high because HokieGak did actually ask me in my marketplace sales thread if I would take 135 for one of the pages that was listed at 150. I politely declined his offer but it wasn't like we were that far off.

 

I was avoiding this thread ever since James was going all "Meeley Man" here but I felt like I had to respond here.

[heartened]

I guess I would add, specific to the onus being on the seller of a NFS piece of art to set the price, the following. Let's say you buy a piece of art for $500 two weeks ago, and post it, marked NFS. The piece means a lot to you, but as discussed, for the right price it would be for sale. Here's your thinking on the piece, based on potential offers you might receive:

 

$500 - No way, I like the piece too much and just bought it.

$1000 - It's a fair offer, but the truth is I'd rather keep this art than have another $1000. I can't replace this piece for $1000.

$1500 - Ditto

$2000 - Alright I have to think about it for a week or two. It's pretty stupid to not sell for 4X the purchase price right? (let's say there's a 50/50 chance at this point that you sell)

$2500 - Wow, you really want this. Give me a few days to see if there's anything else I want to buy I would like as much for this price. (75/25 chance right now and your girlfriend is telling you how much she likes the piece and how she hopes you don't sell it)

$4000 - Alright alright I'll sell it for sure, right now. Send me the Paypal! (100% chance of sale and you ignore your girlfriend)

 

So my question to you, James, is what price should the owner quote here on the NFS piece? If it would take $4K (8X the purchase price!!) to completely convince you, but only $2.5K-$4K to get you to 75%-99% what is the price to quote? I think this is what's difficult for people. If someone makes you their best offer, it gives you something concrete to think about and then decide on. You might say "just tell them it's not for sale" but as you can see in the decision model above, it really is if you take the time to think it through...

 

J

 

Jonathan:

 

The above model only makes my point. If it would take $4k (or 8x FMV) for you to part with the piece (with a 100% certainty), then it is really not for sale, as what you are expecting is highly unreasonable (almost no one would pay that much above market value). So, for all intents and purposes, it is not for sale. If you have to quote a price that you (and most likely the potential buyer) will know is simply outrageous, it truly says you don't really want to sell. And you should be honest with the potential buyer on that.

 

Now, if, by some "once-in-a-blue-moon" fluke, the buyer just offers up that amount right at the start, well, then it doesn't really matter. They've met your price without even trying (or so it would seem). But they are the one who has decided to throw out the "crazy money offer," not you putting such an expectation on them to meet it. Of course, this rarely ever happens, and most collectors know that. To expect it to happen would almost be just as much monumental hubris, as a buyer expecting to get a NFS piece at market value or less.

 

You say someone giving their best offer gives the owner something concrete, but look what happens when that "best" falls way short, due most likely to the buyer being less than experienced (and this doesn't factor in the current state of most folks economic situation, like we have today), as well as the owner giving no indication of what is expected from the buyer: Lowball offers, that are publicly complained about, if not outright ridiculed.

 

If this is such a hardship (or annoyance) for owners, there is an easy way to correct it. The very thing I've been outlining all this time. It would do away with almost all lowball offers and save a lot of wasted time for both parties, with no one feeling offended or misled.

 

Once an owner wants to cross into the possibility of a sale for a NFS item, they should know what they want for that NFS item. And if what they want is obviously and completely unreasonable, they should know they really don't want to sell it. And unless the buyer has made such a "crazy money offer" on their own, they should also be smart enough to know it is extremely unlikely (or nigh-impossible) the buyer will EVER meet such a price. Thus, to save anyone from feeling insutled (by lowball offers) or misled (in thinking they'd get the piece for something even slightly passing for reasonable), you say, "sorry, the piece is not for sale." All the wasted time and offended feelings are spared both parties and everyone can continue on with the joy of the hobby.

 

The "thinking through" should be done, before the owner of a NFS item blindly opens the gates to "make me an offer." If they don't know the buyer, know what they want to part with the item is unreasonable, and know that to expect the buyer to pay it is extremely improbable (if not impossible), then the answer is a simple one: "Sorry, the piece is not for sale. Thanks, anayway."

 

Not doing so, because you are holding out some irrational hope for a "crazy money offer" is silly and is truly what is the biggest waste of time.

 

I won't belabor the point, but as you can see from the above, the prospective buyer has a 50/50 chance of obtaining the piece at $2K and while paying 4X the recent purchase price may seem like a "blue moon" event, I personally don't think that it is, especially when someone with means really wants something. One thing I've seen in my short time in this hobby is that completely unreasonable prices happen all the time, and everything is relative. I've been on both sides at least once in just 4 years. If you scale down my example, would I pay $600 for a page I knew someone paid $150 for recently? Absolutely, if I wanted the page badly enough. And it was a page I fully knew the market value of. Likewise I recall buying a couple of panel pages for $140 each that I sold for over 7X the value of just a couple years later. And not to a new collector either but someone who really just wanted to pry them away from me and that's what it took.

 

I freely admit I don't play in the big boy sandbox, but I think life is different up in the clouds. I think we'd all be amazed at some of the deals that get done that you would consider "blue moon events"...If, suddenly, you realized those events were more likely to occur than you're giving them credit for, it would change the dynamic of your argument significantly.

 

J

 

I, and many others, oftentimes pay solid premiums (in some cases multiples of FMV even for pieces in the 5 digits) for items that we desperately want. It does three things: (a) tells people out there that you are very serious when you inquire, (2) tells people you truly will keep it because there's no way you'll recoup the money in the short term (i.e. flip it), and (3) oftentimes lands you the piece. I've never regretted doing so, and in fact every single piece that I've bought that way has increased to that value or surpassed that value within a few years. Not saying it'll always be this way, but there is certainly some method to the madness. It is not completely irrational to pay multiples of FMV in this hobby, when there are one-of-a-kind pieces involved that you don't want to lose your shot at getting.

 

Hari

 

[malvin]

 

I agree with everyone here... Oh wait. Is HokieGAK talking about me? Well, nevermind then!

 

I was contacted about my Y: The Last Man pages and I offered two up for sale. He asked me how much and I actually decided on a price ($300 for 2 pages). He thought it was too much and countered me for $200 since that was what I paid for them from Pia Guerra. I politely told him that there were differences in exchange rates so that is why they are priced higher. I believe the dollar and CAD were equal when I bought them and that when he was inquiring, the CAD had dropped in value.

 

I also told him than when inquiring people usually pay premiums. Not that I wasn't really asking for a premium but he had been getting a reputation as a lowballer so I kind of threw it out there. I think he saw me making 50 bucks on the deal and he wasn't willing to pay that. I was actually going to make $6 (or something like that- I am not going to go back and calculate everything out again) since he never factored in the shipping from Canada to me and the shipping I would have to pay to get it out to him. I never bothered to point out the shipping costs because I didn't want to get caught haggling and wasting time. I knew that I could post them here and CAF and get someone to pick them up. I was right. They both sold. Aaaand it couldn't have been priced too high because HokieGak did actually ask me in my marketplace sales thread if I would take 135 for one of the pages that was listed at 150. I politely declined his offer but it wasn't like we were that far off.

 

I was avoiding this thread ever since James was going all "Meeley Man" here but I felt like I had to respond here.

 

I think its human nature that knowing someone's cost can be a psychological barrier during a transaction. You sometimes "don't feel right" that you are paying them alot more than their cost. I have been guilty of that in the past but I have overcome that for the most part.

 

However, this has been said many times before but I'll repeat it. What someone paid for the item 5 minutes ago has no bearing on the price right now, especially in comic art.

 

Also, Claudio doesn't need me defending him, but he had a great piece for sale and I was interested. I asked if there can be any discount (politely) and he declined (politely) and I still went ahead and purchased. It was a great transaction and I would highly recommend him. Thanks for the great Carlos Pacheco Superman/Batman Splash Claudio! CAF Link here

 

There are 2 sides to every story and now we have heard from the other side.

 

Malvin

[HokieGAK]

I think its human nature that knowing someone's cost can be a psychological barrier during a transaction. You sometimes "don't feel right" that you are paying them alot more than their cost. I have been guilty of that in the past but I have overcome that for the most part.

 

However, this has been said many times before but I'll repeat it. What someone paid for the item 5 minutes ago has no bearing on the price right now, especially in comic art.

 

There are 2 sides to every story and now we have heard from the other side.

 

Malvin

 

Oh, I agree completely that what someone paid in the past, no matter how recent, does not always reflect the present price, but in this case we were talking about a market I knew very well, and pieces that were very average within that market. I hadn't specifically requested those pieces or any shortened timeline, and I felt that the markup was high.

 

Claudio speaks the truth about reminding me that the currency rates had changed, and after he did so, I upped my offer to match the older exchange rate instead of the current one, which he failed to mention (and his contention of only making $6 is a rdiiculous one, but whatever...).

 

The part that upsets me the most here is his contention that I had some kind of "reputation as a lowballer". I purposely did not mention his name when I made the original post, and it seems ridiculous that he would make some allegation specific to me in reply (and even more ridiculous when I can only imagine that >90% of the people here have no idea who I even am, so it seems HIGHLY unlikely that I've developed any kind of reputation). I've always made offers that I thought were fair, and in only one case, which I apologized for immediately (sorry, Felix!) have I later discovered that my offer was a particularly low one.

 

Nonetheless, I appreciate those who agreed with my assessment, respect those who don't, and look forward to dealing with lots of you in the future, including (I hope), Claudio, should the opportunity arise.

[Meeley Man]

)

[Nexus]

I've always made offers that I thought were fair, and in only one case, which I apologized for immediately (sorry, Felix!) have I later discovered that my offer was a particularly low one.

 

No worries, man...and I hope you'll remember, I didn't bust your chops about it!

 

Back to the original question...I make offers on NFS stuff all the time. I've gotten a lot of my art that way. I do my homework and I don't fool around. When I see something marked "NFS", I just figure there needs to be an incentive for the owner to consider selling it to me. Offering them exactly what they paid, or FMV, is probably not going to be much of an incentive. Just as importantly, it pays to be patient.

 

I also get unsolicited offers on my stuff on occasion. They're all over the place...some are lowball, and some are well over FMV. For the lowball offers, I don't take offense (unless it keeps happening and/or I know the prospective buyer knows better). I do try to help out the less informed with some market data. But I definitely don't think it's my duty to throw out a number...it's not for sale!

 

I'll go look at the collector's gallery when I get offers out of the blue. If I see a lot of stuff I recognize (that were bought from auctions, other collectors, etc.), then I know that this guy isn't out to waste my time.

 

I don't expect to sell anything in my gallery. I'd love to keep it all. But, realistically, stuff will go. What will it take? 1X? 2X? 3X? 4X? More? I'll know it when I see it. As hard as it is for some people to believe, crazy offers happen in the hobby all the time. It does not mean the buyer was taken advantage of...they just really wanted the piece!

 

I love my art, but it's just stuff I collect. It is not my flesh-and-blood, I am not spiritually connected to any of it, the skies did not open up when I acquired it. In the end, there will always be a price. Anyone who claims otherwise is either full of mess, has a low IQ and/or is mentally ill. IMO.

[jjonahjameson1]

Interesting reading this thread.

 

Now let's put it to action. I've got many pieces in my CAF listed 'NFS' by a wide variety of artists. For all the bluster that goes on with board members, take a look, see if there's something that you're interested in, and feel free to make an offer.

 

Let's see if the offers come close to fair market value. Here's the link to my CAF:

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryDetail.asp?GCat=147

[Erato]

Interesting reading this thread.

 

Now let's put it to action. I've got many pieces in my CAF listed 'NFS' by a wide variety of artists. For all the bluster that goes on with board members, take a look, see if there's something that you're interested in, and feel free to make an offer.

 

Let's see if the offers come close to fair market value. Here's the link to my CAF:

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryDetail.asp?GCat=147

 

Hey Yoram,

 

Haven't I given you enough of my money over the years?

 

Brian

 

(still enjoying every piece )

[jjonahjameson1]

Interesting reading this thread.

 

Now let's put it to action. I've got many pieces in my CAF listed 'NFS' by a wide variety of artists. For all the bluster that goes on with board members, take a look, see if there's something that you're interested in, and feel free to make an offer.

 

Let's see if the offers come close to fair market value. Here's the link to my CAF:

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryDetail.asp?GCat=147

 

Hey Yoram,

 

Haven't I given you enough of my money over the years?

 

Brian

 

(still enjoying every piece )

 

Glad they are with you Brian, and I'm happy to hear you're still enjoying them (thumbs u

[Nexus]

Interesting reading this thread.

 

Now let's put it to action. I've got many pieces in my CAF listed 'NFS' by a wide variety of artists. For all the bluster that goes on with board members, take a look, see if there's something that you're interested in, and feel free to make an offer.

 

Let's see if the offers come close to fair market value. Here's the link to my CAF:

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryDetail.asp?GCat=147

 

If "NFS" in your gallery means anything less than "Not For Sale At ANY Price", then it is YOUR responsibility and duty to provide a price. The onus is on YOU as you have all the POWER! If you don't, you are playing on the buyer's emotions. If you don't, you are sickening, disgusting, and MORALLY ABHORRENT!*

 

Or something like that.

 

*( http://qurls.com?i=48183 )

 

 

 

 

 

[Claudio]

I think its human nature that knowing someone's cost can be a psychological barrier during a transaction. You sometimes "don't feel right" that you are paying them alot more than their cost. I have been guilty of that in the past but I have overcome that for the most part.

 

However, this has been said many times before but I'll repeat it. What someone paid for the item 5 minutes ago has no bearing on the price right now, especially in comic art.

 

There are 2 sides to every story and now we have heard from the other side.

 

Malvin

 

Oh, I agree completely that what someone paid in the past, no matter how recent, does not always reflect the present price, but in this case we were talking about a market I knew very well, and pieces that were very average within that market. I hadn't specifically requested those pieces or any shortened timeline, and I felt that the markup was high.

 

Claudio speaks the truth about reminding me that the currency rates had changed, and after he did so, I upped my offer to match the older exchange rate instead of the current one, which he failed to mention (and his contention of only making $6 is a rdiiculous one, but whatever...).

 

The part that upsets me the most here is his contention that I had some kind of "reputation as a lowballer". I purposely did not mention his name when I made the original post, and it seems ridiculous that he would make some allegation specific to me in reply (and even more ridiculous when I can only imagine that >90% of the people here have no idea who I even am, so it seems HIGHLY unlikely that I've developed any kind of reputation). I've always made offers that I thought were fair, and in only one case, which I apologized for immediately (sorry, Felix!) have I later discovered that my offer was a particularly low one.

 

Nonetheless, I appreciate those who agreed with my assessment, respect those who don't, and look forward to dealing with lots of you in the future, including (I hope), Claudio, should the opportunity arise.

i think i was just annoyed with having to justify the price. you upped your offer without factoring in some of my other expenses but i let you know via pm that i am not upset. throughout the entire process, i thought that we communicated well so i was surprised at seeing this pop up now. i will admit that my comment about "premiums" was poorly worded. i believe it but it wasn't really applicable here. anyway, hopefully, we can continue this via pm and not bore people further.

[heartened]

Interesting reading this thread.

 

Now let's put it to action. I've got many pieces in my CAF listed 'NFS' by a wide variety of artists. For all the bluster that goes on with board members, take a look, see if there's something that you're interested in, and feel free to make an offer.

 

Let's see if the offers come close to fair market value. Here's the link to my CAF:

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryDetail.asp?GCat=147

 

Somehow, I'm thinking the Keown Hulk covers are off-limits

 

Hari

 

[blowout]

Interesting reading this thread.

 

Now let's put it to action. I've got many pieces in my CAF listed 'NFS' by a wide variety of artists. For all the bluster that goes on with board members, take a look, see if there's something that you're interested in, and feel free to make an offer.

 

Let's see if the offers come close to fair market value. Here's the link to my CAF:

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryDetail.asp?GCat=147

 

Somehow, I'm thinking the Keown Hulk covers are off-limits

 

Hari

 

But Hari...every piece of art has it's price doesn't it?

[innocuous]

Interesting reading this thread.

 

Now let's put it to action. I've got many pieces in my CAF listed 'NFS' by a wide variety of artists. For all the bluster that goes on with board members, take a look, see if there's something that you're interested in, and feel free to make an offer.

 

Let's see if the offers come close to fair market value. Here's the link to my CAF:

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryDetail.asp?GCat=147

 

Somehow, I'm thinking the Keown Hulk covers are off-limits

 

Hari

 

But Hari...every piece of art has it's price doesn't it?

 

I would really like to try this, but based on this thread, I'm afraid of getting laughed off the board and blacklisted. I would love one of your Darywn pieces, but with only Albert Moy's site to go on, I have no idea of FMV. And, I have no way to determine it.

[Erato]

Interesting reading this thread.

 

Now let's put it to action. I've got many pieces in my CAF listed 'NFS' by a wide variety of artists. For all the bluster that goes on with board members, take a look, see if there's something that you're interested in, and feel free to make an offer.

 

Let's see if the offers come close to fair market value. Here's the link to my CAF:

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryDetail.asp?GCat=147

 

Somehow, I'm thinking the Keown Hulk covers are off-limits

 

Hari

 

But Hari...every piece of art has it's price doesn't it?

 

I would really like to try this, but based on this thread, I'm afraid of getting laughed off the board and blacklisted. I would love one of your Darywn pieces, but with only Albert Moy's site to go on, I have no idea of FMV. And, I have no way to determine it.

 

Go for it! Yoram is Innocuous.

 

Brian

[mtlevy]

Boy this thread is so long I am not sure I digested all of it.

 

A few thoughts.

 

1. I am not sure why anyone would invest their time in maintaining prices on items they are not actively selling--prices move rapidly and once you have even a dozen pieces it would be an investment to keep them in line. NFS is the simplest way to say I am not looking to sell a given piece at market price.

 

2. Like others, I have a statement at the top of my CAF to help clarify how available pages are...mine says take a look at my want list if you want something you see in my gallery--helps establish what NFS means.

 

3. I get the occasional inquiry and always try to send a polite e-mail reply...I rarely get strong and firm cash offers but when I do I put them in a spreadsheet and will certainly let the individual know if/when the piece is up for grabs--if no firm offer then I often do not bother capturing the info in the spreadsheet.

 

Anyone have some art on my wantlist for sale?