And people wonder why folks get a little bit peeved...

[nearmint]

Can whether you personally have had a book pressed be proactively disclosed?

 

Always, and it's been requested time and again by many people.

 

See the difference? \(shrug\)

 

But they only seem to make that request in pressing threads. They never seem to ask the dealers themselves about particular books in their inventory, which would be the most productive avenue, wouldn't it?

 

No.

 

Because if 'proactive disclosure' was being practiced, they wouldn't need to ask, would they?

 

No, they wouldn't. But your response is one example of why I've come to look at the anti-pressing stance as purely theoretical. There's lots of talk, but only a tiny percentage of the anti-pressing crowd back up their words with even simple actions(liking asking dealers if a particular book is pressed). As a result, the anti-pressing movement has failed to gain a foothold in the hobby.

 

[awe4one]

Personally it has little to do with damaging the comic whether that's true of not.

 

The mere fact of someone thinking they have to press a comic, outside of keeping it in their own collection, is abhorrant to me. Why?

 

There is nothing better than finding a comic to your specifications in this hobby. The hunt is/was as much of this hobby than ownig the actual comic. Now the thrill of finding that comic has been diminished by someone who could produce that comic from a grade that previously didn't meet you threshold. That diminishes the hunt and consequenntly diminishes my desire to be in this hobby.

 

It isn't so much the pressing but rather the artificiality of the whole process that brings the anger...

 

Jim

I agree that there is nothing better for a collector than finding a comic which fit the specifications of what he/she collects.

One of my specifications is that a book is flat.

 

Min eis it's flat and NOT pressed...

 

Did you miss the point of the post? Yuo're a smart guy Rich, and I'm sure you know the attirude of collectors pre and post pressing releveation. I'm sure the desire hasn't changed but rather the game has changed a bit...

 

Jim

[Dale Roberts]

Restoration does not return a book to its original state. It only brings the appearance of the original state. Restoration brings a change in mass(as with adding pieces or trimming), or a change in the chemical composition of the book(adding pieces or color, or chemical cleaning). Pressing does neither of these things. Pressing can, in fact, bring a book to (or nearer to) its original state.

Nope, this is what restoration is. Restoration is treatment intended to return a comic book to a known or assumed state by adding non-original material. Detected restoration is always disclosed on the CGC certification label. Non-additive procedures, such as pressing, dry cleaning and tape removal, are not classified as restoration by CGC. Trimmed books are given an apparent grade, and, in accordance with CGC's policy, are encapsulated with CGC's restored label. Learn more about comic book restoration. Pressing is simply a flattening process. Doesn't do anything else.

 

This is the kind of mis-information that gets repeated over and over until people actually start believing it's true. And it's really starting to me off.

 

"Using heat to reduce creases, wrinkles, or other planar distortions is not recommended by professional paper conservators. Many studies have shown that increased heat accelerates paper aging, especially papers made from groundwood pulp.

 

In controlled environments, conservators sometimes use humidification to flatten works. However, the method by which it occurs and on what kinds of paper are both very broad factors that are considered. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

-- Paper Conservator - Conservation Division - U.S. Library of Congress

 

This is from Classic Inc website...

 

We strive to make sure every technique is safe for the short and long term. Our pressing process does not involve disassembly, nor do we use abrasive materials like chemicals, or perform any work that would constitute restoration. No excessive pressure or heat is used in our work. You will not receive comics that appear to be "pancaked," or any other unfortunate side effect that usually occurs with improper pressing. The end result is undetectable, with each comic exhibiting a fresh, untouched feel and look.

Yes...that is a quote from a website that presses comic books for profit. The fact is...they do use heat and pressure...and I believe they also use moisture (water) if needed. And simply because a book does not appear to be "pancaked"...does not mean that it hasn't suffered any damage.

 

The U.S. Library of Congress (someone who doesn't press comics for profit) clearly stated:

 

"Using heat to reduce creases, wrinkles, or other planar distortions is not recommended by professional paper conservators. Many studies have shown that increased heat accelerates paper aging, especially papers made from groundwood pulp. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

I think increased heat would have to be defined, and compared to what, if any, heat is actually used for this argument to have any merit. Also, the paragraph you quote here talks about the perils of introducing moisture, but doesn't the very next paragraph in the full quote you posted earlier talk about conservators sometimes adding humidifiation to flatten works?

Yes they will introduce moisture...but only if it's necessary as you say to "flatten works". As FFB mentioned in that thread, the Decleration of Independence was stored for years rolled up in a tube. It would have to be pressed in order to lay flat for study and presentation. I don't think squeeking another .02 grade out of a comic book would qualify as their definition of necessary.

 

They said flatten works, not me. It's part of the quote that you posted. And where do they detail when they would and when they would not add moisture? You seem to believe you know when they would and wouldn't.

 

And I have to wonder why the LOC chose to end their response with a selection of links to websites that sell products in which to store comics, rather than links to the numerous studies that they mentioned.

 

Their response is very broad. Is introducing heat that's one degree higher than the ambient temperature damaging to the comic? Ten degrees? They're not specific.

 

What is the extent of the accelerated aging? As Joey said, is the book going to last 490 years now rather than 535?

 

Can we get any specifics here?

You both used the phase "flatten works" so I put that in quotes.

 

As to when they use moisture...they stated the following:

 

"In controlled environments, conservators sometimes use humidification to flatten works. However, the method by which it occurs and on what kinds of paper are both very broad factors that are considered. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

And nice try, but I never said I knew exactly when they would and wouldn't use moisture to flatten an item. Their response indicates that they consider the need and the resulting negative consequences to the paper item very carefully before they resort to that measure. Can you, or Matt, or any of the other pressers say the same?

 

The actual U.S. Library of Congress has spoken on a very well presented question by Fantastic_Four regarding pressing. These are probably the worlds foremost authorities on paper conservation and would understand the context and methods of pressing paper to improve it's appearance while trying to minimize damage to it. The question on whether pressing causes damage has been answered. It does damage the paper. Nothing is ever going to be good enough for the presser though...there's always one more question to ask in an attempt to keep the "no damage" debate going.

 

So no specifics then?

I'll trade you mine for yours. Please post all the long-term studies that pressers have conducted along with graphs and charts showing the amount of heat, pressure, and/or moisture they use on each book.

 

To use your examples, all of the historical documents which the library of congress is efforting to keep, were subjected to more extreme levels of heat, cold, and humidity for much longer times than any comic book ever will be. I would submit that if the Declaration of Independence could survive through all of that, that a comic book could certainly survive a short time in a press.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Restoration does not return a book to its original state. It only brings the appearance of the original state. Restoration brings a change in mass(as with adding pieces or trimming), or a change in the chemical composition of the book(adding pieces or color, or chemical cleaning). Pressing does neither of these things. Pressing can, in fact, bring a book to (or nearer to) its original state.

Nope, this is what restoration is. Restoration is treatment intended to return a comic book to a known or assumed state by adding non-original material. Detected restoration is always disclosed on the CGC certification label. Non-additive procedures, such as pressing, dry cleaning and tape removal, are not classified as restoration by CGC. Trimmed books are given an apparent grade, and, in accordance with CGC's policy, are encapsulated with CGC's restored label. Learn more about comic book restoration. Pressing is simply a flattening process. Doesn't do anything else.

 

This is the kind of mis-information that gets repeated over and over until people actually start believing it's true. And it's really starting to me off.

 

"Using heat to reduce creases, wrinkles, or other planar distortions is not recommended by professional paper conservators. Many studies have shown that increased heat accelerates paper aging, especially papers made from groundwood pulp.

 

In controlled environments, conservators sometimes use humidification to flatten works. However, the method by which it occurs and on what kinds of paper are both very broad factors that are considered. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

-- Paper Conservator - Conservation Division - U.S. Library of Congress

 

This is from Classic Inc website...

 

We strive to make sure every technique is safe for the short and long term. Our pressing process does not involve disassembly, nor do we use abrasive materials like chemicals, or perform any work that would constitute restoration. No excessive pressure or heat is used in our work. You will not receive comics that appear to be "pancaked," or any other unfortunate side effect that usually occurs with improper pressing. The end result is undetectable, with each comic exhibiting a fresh, untouched feel and look.

Yes...that is a quote from a website that presses comic books for profit. The fact is...they do use heat and pressure...and I believe they also use moisture (water) if needed. And simply because a book does not appear to be "pancaked"...does not mean that it hasn't suffered any damage.

 

The U.S. Library of Congress (someone who doesn't press comics for profit) clearly stated:

 

"Using heat to reduce creases, wrinkles, or other planar distortions is not recommended by professional paper conservators. Many studies have shown that increased heat accelerates paper aging, especially papers made from groundwood pulp. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

I think increased heat would have to be defined, and compared to what, if any, heat is actually used for this argument to have any merit. Also, the paragraph you quote here talks about the perils of introducing moisture, but doesn't the very next paragraph in the full quote you posted earlier talk about conservators sometimes adding humidifiation to flatten works?

Yes they will introduce moisture...but only if it's necessary as you say to "flatten works". As FFB mentioned in that thread, the Decleration of Independence was stored for years rolled up in a tube. It would have to be pressed in order to lay flat for study and presentation. I don't think squeeking another .02 grade out of a comic book would qualify as their definition of necessary.

 

They said flatten works, not me. It's part of the quote that you posted. And where do they detail when they would and when they would not add moisture? You seem to believe you know when they would and wouldn't.

 

And I have to wonder why the LOC chose to end their response with a selection of links to websites that sell products in which to store comics, rather than links to the numerous studies that they mentioned.

 

Their response is very broad. Is introducing heat that's one degree higher than the ambient temperature damaging to the comic? Ten degrees? They're not specific.

 

What is the extent of the accelerated aging? As Joey said, is the book going to last 490 years now rather than 535?

 

Can we get any specifics here?

You both used the phase "flatten works" so I put that in quotes.

 

As to when they use moisture...they stated the following:

 

"In controlled environments, conservators sometimes use humidification to flatten works. However, the method by which it occurs and on what kinds of paper are both very broad factors that are considered. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

And nice try, but I never said I knew exactly when they would and wouldn't use moisture to flatten an item. Their response indicates that they consider the need and the resulting negative consequences to the paper item very carefully before they resort to that measure. Can you, or Matt, or any of the other pressers say the same?

 

The actual U.S. Library of Congress has spoken on a very well presented question by Fantastic_Four regarding pressing. These are probably the worlds foremost authorities on paper conservation and would understand the context and methods of pressing paper to improve it's appearance while trying to minimize damage to it. The question on whether pressing causes damage has been answered. It does damage the paper. Nothing is ever going to be good enough for the presser though...there's always one more question to ask in an attempt to keep the "no damage" debate going.

 

You shouldn't ever smoke, because even that one cigarette might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever eat a double cheeseburger, because it might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever press a comic, because the damage the process causes might shorten its lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

See, without specifics....it just doesn't mean anything to me.

 

 

[awe4one]

If you buy a car, do you not ask questions about the car? Why wouldn't the same actions apply when buying comics? If you don't want to buy a pressed book, ask the dealer if it has been pressed. If the answer is anything other than "no", don't buy it.

 

Because I assume it hasn't been manipulated. Like a car. If it was swamped in Hurricane Ike you better damn tell me. Full disclosure is what you need...

 

Jim

[Monstro]

At the end of the day, I have personally decided that you can't blame the dealers for pressing the books. They are just trying to maximize profits. Nothing wrong with that.

 

It's the guys buying this stuff. Knowing that they are buying a manipulated book and still paying out the nose for them. I hope it makes them happy.

 

[nearmint]

Restoration does not return a book to its original state. It only brings the appearance of the original state. Restoration brings a change in mass(as with adding pieces or trimming), or a change in the chemical composition of the book(adding pieces or color, or chemical cleaning). Pressing does neither of these things. Pressing can, in fact, bring a book to (or nearer to) its original state.

Nope, this is what restoration is. Restoration is treatment intended to return a comic book to a known or assumed state by adding non-original material. Detected restoration is always disclosed on the CGC certification label. Non-additive procedures, such as pressing, dry cleaning and tape removal, are not classified as restoration by CGC. Trimmed books are given an apparent grade, and, in accordance with CGC's policy, are encapsulated with CGC's restored label. Learn more about comic book restoration. Pressing is simply a flattening process. Doesn't do anything else.

 

This is the kind of mis-information that gets repeated over and over until people actually start believing it's true. And it's really starting to me off.

 

"Using heat to reduce creases, wrinkles, or other planar distortions is not recommended by professional paper conservators. Many studies have shown that increased heat accelerates paper aging, especially papers made from groundwood pulp.

 

In controlled environments, conservators sometimes use humidification to flatten works. However, the method by which it occurs and on what kinds of paper are both very broad factors that are considered. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

-- Paper Conservator - Conservation Division - U.S. Library of Congress

 

This is from Classic Inc website...

 

We strive to make sure every technique is safe for the short and long term. Our pressing process does not involve disassembly, nor do we use abrasive materials like chemicals, or perform any work that would constitute restoration. No excessive pressure or heat is used in our work. You will not receive comics that appear to be "pancaked," or any other unfortunate side effect that usually occurs with improper pressing. The end result is undetectable, with each comic exhibiting a fresh, untouched feel and look.

Yes...that is a quote from a website that presses comic books for profit. The fact is...they do use heat and pressure...and I believe they also use moisture (water) if needed. And simply because a book does not appear to be "pancaked"...does not mean that it hasn't suffered any damage.

 

The U.S. Library of Congress (someone who doesn't press comics for profit) clearly stated:

 

"Using heat to reduce creases, wrinkles, or other planar distortions is not recommended by professional paper conservators. Many studies have shown that increased heat accelerates paper aging, especially papers made from groundwood pulp. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

I think increased heat would have to be defined, and compared to what, if any, heat is actually used for this argument to have any merit. Also, the paragraph you quote here talks about the perils of introducing moisture, but doesn't the very next paragraph in the full quote you posted earlier talk about conservators sometimes adding humidifiation to flatten works?

Yes they will introduce moisture...but only if it's necessary as you say to "flatten works". As FFB mentioned in that thread, the Decleration of Independence was stored for years rolled up in a tube. It would have to be pressed in order to lay flat for study and presentation. I don't think squeeking another .02 grade out of a comic book would qualify as their definition of necessary.

 

They said flatten works, not me. It's part of the quote that you posted. And where do they detail when they would and when they would not add moisture? You seem to believe you know when they would and wouldn't.

 

And I have to wonder why the LOC chose to end their response with a selection of links to websites that sell products in which to store comics, rather than links to the numerous studies that they mentioned.

 

Their response is very broad. Is introducing heat that's one degree higher than the ambient temperature damaging to the comic? Ten degrees? They're not specific.

 

What is the extent of the accelerated aging? As Joey said, is the book going to last 490 years now rather than 535?

 

Can we get any specifics here?

You both used the phase "flatten works" so I put that in quotes.

 

As to when they use moisture...they stated the following:

 

"In controlled environments, conservators sometimes use humidification to flatten works. However, the method by which it occurs and on what kinds of paper are both very broad factors that are considered. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

And nice try, but I never said I knew exactly when they would and wouldn't use moisture to flatten an item. Their response indicates that they consider the need and the resulting negative consequences to the paper item very carefully before they resort to that measure. Can you, or Matt, or any of the other pressers say the same?

 

The actual U.S. Library of Congress has spoken on a very well presented question by Fantastic_Four regarding pressing. These are probably the worlds foremost authorities on paper conservation and would understand the context and methods of pressing paper to improve it's appearance while trying to minimize damage to it. The question on whether pressing causes damage has been answered. It does damage the paper. Nothing is ever going to be good enough for the presser though...there's always one more question to ask in an attempt to keep the "no damage" debate going.

 

So no specifics then?

I'll trade you mine for yours. Please post all the long-term studies that pressers have conducted showing absolutely no damage occurs along with graphs and charts showing the amount of heat, pressure, and/or moisture they have used on each book.

 

You're asking me to blindly accept a broad stroke response from someone at the LOC who backs up his claims with "numerous studies" but fails to mention what studies he's referring to? In what scientific journal would that be acceptable?

[Domo Arigato]

To use your examples, all of the historical documents which the library of congress is efforting to keep, were subjected to more extreme levels of heat, cold, and humidity for much longer times than any comic book ever will be. I would submit that if the Declaration of Independence could survive through all of that, that a comic book could certainly survive a short time in a press.

Dale...that is utter nonsense and I really wish you'd quit it.

 

Do you even know what the Declaration of Independence is printed on?

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

If you buy a car, do you not ask questions about the car? Why wouldn't the same actions apply when buying comics? If you don't want to buy a pressed book, ask the dealer if it has been pressed. If the answer is anything other than "no", don't buy it.

 

Because I assume it hasn't been manipulated. Like a car. If it was swamped in Hurricane Ike you better damn tell me. Full disclosure is what you need...

 

Jim

 

Sweet, now a pressed comic is like a flooded car with a salvaged title.

[awe4one]

Restoration does not return a book to its original state. It only brings the appearance of the original state. Restoration brings a change in mass(as with adding pieces or trimming), or a change in the chemical composition of the book(adding pieces or color, or chemical cleaning). Pressing does neither of these things. Pressing can, in fact, bring a book to (or nearer to) its original state.

Nope, this is what restoration is. Restoration is treatment intended to return a comic book to a known or assumed state by adding non-original material. Detected restoration is always disclosed on the CGC certification label. Non-additive procedures, such as pressing, dry cleaning and tape removal, are not classified as restoration by CGC. Trimmed books are given an apparent grade, and, in accordance with CGC's policy, are encapsulated with CGC's restored label. Learn more about comic book restoration. Pressing is simply a flattening process. Doesn't do anything else.

 

This is the kind of mis-information that gets repeated over and over until people actually start believing it's true. And it's really starting to me off.

 

"Using heat to reduce creases, wrinkles, or other planar distortions is not recommended by professional paper conservators. Many studies have shown that increased heat accelerates paper aging, especially papers made from groundwood pulp.

 

In controlled environments, conservators sometimes use humidification to flatten works. However, the method by which it occurs and on what kinds of paper are both very broad factors that are considered. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

-- Paper Conservator - Conservation Division - U.S. Library of Congress

 

This is from Classic Inc website...

 

We strive to make sure every technique is safe for the short and long term. Our pressing process does not involve disassembly, nor do we use abrasive materials like chemicals, or perform any work that would constitute restoration. No excessive pressure or heat is used in our work. You will not receive comics that appear to be "pancaked," or any other unfortunate side effect that usually occurs with improper pressing. The end result is undetectable, with each comic exhibiting a fresh, untouched feel and look.

Yes...that is a quote from a website that presses comic books for profit. The fact is...they do use heat and pressure...and I believe they also use moisture (water) if needed. And simply because a book does not appear to be "pancaked"...does not mean that it hasn't suffered any damage.

 

The U.S. Library of Congress (someone who doesn't press comics for profit) clearly stated:

 

"Using heat to reduce creases, wrinkles, or other planar distortions is not recommended by professional paper conservators. Many studies have shown that increased heat accelerates paper aging, especially papers made from groundwood pulp. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

I think increased heat would have to be defined, and compared to what, if any, heat is actually used for this argument to have any merit. Also, the paragraph you quote here talks about the perils of introducing moisture, but doesn't the very next paragraph in the full quote you posted earlier talk about conservators sometimes adding humidifiation to flatten works?

Yes they will introduce moisture...but only if it's necessary as you say to "flatten works". As FFB mentioned in that thread, the Decleration of Independence was stored for years rolled up in a tube. It would have to be pressed in order to lay flat for study and presentation. I don't think squeeking another .02 grade out of a comic book would qualify as their definition of necessary.

 

They said flatten works, not me. It's part of the quote that you posted. And where do they detail when they would and when they would not add moisture? You seem to believe you know when they would and wouldn't.

 

And I have to wonder why the LOC chose to end their response with a selection of links to websites that sell products in which to store comics, rather than links to the numerous studies that they mentioned.

 

Their response is very broad. Is introducing heat that's one degree higher than the ambient temperature damaging to the comic? Ten degrees? They're not specific.

 

What is the extent of the accelerated aging? As Joey said, is the book going to last 490 years now rather than 535?

 

Can we get any specifics here?

You both used the phase "flatten works" so I put that in quotes.

 

As to when they use moisture...they stated the following:

 

"In controlled environments, conservators sometimes use humidification to flatten works. However, the method by which it occurs and on what kinds of paper are both very broad factors that are considered. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

And nice try, but I never said I knew exactly when they would and wouldn't use moisture to flatten an item. Their response indicates that they consider the need and the resulting negative consequences to the paper item very carefully before they resort to that measure. Can you, or Matt, or any of the other pressers say the same?

 

The actual U.S. Library of Congress has spoken on a very well presented question by Fantastic_Four regarding pressing. These are probably the worlds foremost authorities on paper conservation and would understand the context and methods of pressing paper to improve it's appearance while trying to minimize damage to it. The question on whether pressing causes damage has been answered. It does damage the paper. Nothing is ever going to be good enough for the presser though...there's always one more question to ask in an attempt to keep the "no damage" debate going.

 

You shouldn't ever smoke, because even that one cigarette might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever eat a double cheeseburger, because it might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever press a comic, because the damage the process does will shorten its lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

See, without specifics....it just doesn't mean anything to me.

 

 

And that is a strawman...facts have been presented but no facts have been countered...

 

Heat and humidity are suggested to harm paper by a very credible source. Unless you have a counter then your's is a mute point...

 

Jim

[nearmint]

Restoration does not return a book to its original state. It only brings the appearance of the original state. Restoration brings a change in mass(as with adding pieces or trimming), or a change in the chemical composition of the book(adding pieces or color, or chemical cleaning). Pressing does neither of these things. Pressing can, in fact, bring a book to (or nearer to) its original state.

Nope, this is what restoration is. Restoration is treatment intended to return a comic book to a known or assumed state by adding non-original material. Detected restoration is always disclosed on the CGC certification label. Non-additive procedures, such as pressing, dry cleaning and tape removal, are not classified as restoration by CGC. Trimmed books are given an apparent grade, and, in accordance with CGC's policy, are encapsulated with CGC's restored label. Learn more about comic book restoration. Pressing is simply a flattening process. Doesn't do anything else.

 

This is the kind of mis-information that gets repeated over and over until people actually start believing it's true. And it's really starting to me off.

 

"Using heat to reduce creases, wrinkles, or other planar distortions is not recommended by professional paper conservators. Many studies have shown that increased heat accelerates paper aging, especially papers made from groundwood pulp.

 

In controlled environments, conservators sometimes use humidification to flatten works. However, the method by which it occurs and on what kinds of paper are both very broad factors that are considered. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

-- Paper Conservator - Conservation Division - U.S. Library of Congress

 

This is from Classic Inc website...

 

We strive to make sure every technique is safe for the short and long term. Our pressing process does not involve disassembly, nor do we use abrasive materials like chemicals, or perform any work that would constitute restoration. No excessive pressure or heat is used in our work. You will not receive comics that appear to be "pancaked," or any other unfortunate side effect that usually occurs with improper pressing. The end result is undetectable, with each comic exhibiting a fresh, untouched feel and look.

Yes...that is a quote from a website that presses comic books for profit. The fact is...they do use heat and pressure...and I believe they also use moisture (water) if needed. And simply because a book does not appear to be "pancaked"...does not mean that it hasn't suffered any damage.

 

The U.S. Library of Congress (someone who doesn't press comics for profit) clearly stated:

 

"Using heat to reduce creases, wrinkles, or other planar distortions is not recommended by professional paper conservators. Many studies have shown that increased heat accelerates paper aging, especially papers made from groundwood pulp. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

I think increased heat would have to be defined, and compared to what, if any, heat is actually used for this argument to have any merit. Also, the paragraph you quote here talks about the perils of introducing moisture, but doesn't the very next paragraph in the full quote you posted earlier talk about conservators sometimes adding humidifiation to flatten works?

Yes they will introduce moisture...but only if it's necessary as you say to "flatten works". As FFB mentioned in that thread, the Decleration of Independence was stored for years rolled up in a tube. It would have to be pressed in order to lay flat for study and presentation. I don't think squeeking another .02 grade out of a comic book would qualify as their definition of necessary.

 

They said flatten works, not me. It's part of the quote that you posted. And where do they detail when they would and when they would not add moisture? You seem to believe you know when they would and wouldn't.

 

And I have to wonder why the LOC chose to end their response with a selection of links to websites that sell products in which to store comics, rather than links to the numerous studies that they mentioned.

 

Their response is very broad. Is introducing heat that's one degree higher than the ambient temperature damaging to the comic? Ten degrees? They're not specific.

 

What is the extent of the accelerated aging? As Joey said, is the book going to last 490 years now rather than 535?

 

Can we get any specifics here?

You both used the phase "flatten works" so I put that in quotes.

 

As to when they use moisture...they stated the following:

 

"In controlled environments, conservators sometimes use humidification to flatten works. However, the method by which it occurs and on what kinds of paper are both very broad factors that are considered. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

And nice try, but I never said I knew exactly when they would and wouldn't use moisture to flatten an item. Their response indicates that they consider the need and the resulting negative consequences to the paper item very carefully before they resort to that measure. Can you, or Matt, or any of the other pressers say the same?

 

The actual U.S. Library of Congress has spoken on a very well presented question by Fantastic_Four regarding pressing. These are probably the worlds foremost authorities on paper conservation and would understand the context and methods of pressing paper to improve it's appearance while trying to minimize damage to it. The question on whether pressing causes damage has been answered. It does damage the paper. Nothing is ever going to be good enough for the presser though...there's always one more question to ask in an attempt to keep the "no damage" debate going.

 

You shouldn't ever smoke, because even that one cigarette might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever eat a double cheeseburger, because it might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever press a comic, because the damage the process does will shorten its lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

See, without specifics....it just doesn't mean anything to me.

 

 

And that is a strawman...facts have been presented but no facts have been countered...

 

Heat and humidity are suggested to harm paper by a very credible source. Unless you have a counter then your's is a mute point...

 

Jim

 

How much heat? How much moisture? Details please.

[TheShadowKnows]

Can whether you personally have had a book pressed be proactively disclosed?

 

Always, and it's been requested time and again by many people.

 

See the difference? \(shrug\)

 

But they only seem to make that request in pressing threads. They never seem to ask the dealers themselves about particular books in their inventory, which would be the most productive avenue, wouldn't it?

 

No.

 

Because if 'proactive disclosure' was being practiced, they wouldn't need to ask, would they?

 

Why isn't it incumbent on the buyer to be educated? Caveat Emptor applies everywhere but, apparently, when buying comics. Why does the simple act of asking the seller if a book has been pressed (if you care) seem to be such a big deal?

 

If you buy a car, do you not ask questions about the car? Why wouldn't the same actions apply when buying comics? If you don't want to buy a pressed book, ask the dealer if it has been pressed. If the answer is anything other than "no", don't buy it.

Can I see the Carfax please

[Domo Arigato]

You shouldn't ever smoke, because even that one cigarette might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever eat a double cheeseburger, because it might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever press a comic, because the damage the process does will shorten its lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

See, without specifics....it just doesn't mean anything to me.

Smoking does cause damage to your body.

fact

 

Eating a double cheeseburger is unhealthy.

fact

 

Pressing a comic does damage it.

fact

 

Even without specifics...these facts are very important to me.

[awe4one]

If you buy a car, do you not ask questions about the car? Why wouldn't the same actions apply when buying comics? If you don't want to buy a pressed book, ask the dealer if it has been pressed. If the answer is anything other than "no", don't buy it.

 

Because I assume it hasn't been manipulated. Like a car. If it was swamped in Hurricane Ike you better damn tell me. Full disclosure is what you need...

 

Jim

 

Sweet, now a pressed comic is like a flooded car with a salvaged title.

 

Disclosure is disclosure whether it meets your definiition...

 

Jim

[Flaming_Telepath]

Can whether you personally have had a book pressed be proactively disclosed?

 

Always, and it's been requested time and again by many people.

 

See the difference? \(shrug\)

 

But they only seem to make that request in pressing threads. They never seem to ask the dealers themselves about particular books in their inventory, which would be the most productive avenue, wouldn't it?

 

No.

 

Because if 'proactive disclosure' was being practiced, they wouldn't need to ask, would they?

 

Why isn't it incumbent on the buyer to be educated? Caveat Emptor applies everywhere but, apparently, when buying comics. Why does the simple act of asking the seller if a book has been pressed (if you care) seem to be such a big deal?

 

If you buy a car, do you not ask questions about the car? Why wouldn't the same actions apply when buying comics? If you don't want to buy a pressed book, ask the dealer if it has been pressed. If the answer is anything other than "no", don't buy it.

 

When you buy a car, many things are proactively disclosed. We'd like the same service with comics, thanks. (thumbs u

[awe4one]

Restoration does not return a book to its original state. It only brings the appearance of the original state. Restoration brings a change in mass(as with adding pieces or trimming), or a change in the chemical composition of the book(adding pieces or color, or chemical cleaning). Pressing does neither of these things. Pressing can, in fact, bring a book to (or nearer to) its original state.

Nope, this is what restoration is. Restoration is treatment intended to return a comic book to a known or assumed state by adding non-original material. Detected restoration is always disclosed on the CGC certification label. Non-additive procedures, such as pressing, dry cleaning and tape removal, are not classified as restoration by CGC. Trimmed books are given an apparent grade, and, in accordance with CGC's policy, are encapsulated with CGC's restored label. Learn more about comic book restoration. Pressing is simply a flattening process. Doesn't do anything else.

 

This is the kind of mis-information that gets repeated over and over until people actually start believing it's true. And it's really starting to me off.

 

"Using heat to reduce creases, wrinkles, or other planar distortions is not recommended by professional paper conservators. Many studies have shown that increased heat accelerates paper aging, especially papers made from groundwood pulp.

 

In controlled environments, conservators sometimes use humidification to flatten works. However, the method by which it occurs and on what kinds of paper are both very broad factors that are considered. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

-- Paper Conservator - Conservation Division - U.S. Library of Congress

 

This is from Classic Inc website...

 

We strive to make sure every technique is safe for the short and long term. Our pressing process does not involve disassembly, nor do we use abrasive materials like chemicals, or perform any work that would constitute restoration. No excessive pressure or heat is used in our work. You will not receive comics that appear to be "pancaked," or any other unfortunate side effect that usually occurs with improper pressing. The end result is undetectable, with each comic exhibiting a fresh, untouched feel and look.

Yes...that is a quote from a website that presses comic books for profit. The fact is...they do use heat and pressure...and I believe they also use moisture (water) if needed. And simply because a book does not appear to be "pancaked"...does not mean that it hasn't suffered any damage.

 

The U.S. Library of Congress (someone who doesn't press comics for profit) clearly stated:

 

"Using heat to reduce creases, wrinkles, or other planar distortions is not recommended by professional paper conservators. Many studies have shown that increased heat accelerates paper aging, especially papers made from groundwood pulp. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

I think increased heat would have to be defined, and compared to what, if any, heat is actually used for this argument to have any merit. Also, the paragraph you quote here talks about the perils of introducing moisture, but doesn't the very next paragraph in the full quote you posted earlier talk about conservators sometimes adding humidifiation to flatten works?

Yes they will introduce moisture...but only if it's necessary as you say to "flatten works". As FFB mentioned in that thread, the Decleration of Independence was stored for years rolled up in a tube. It would have to be pressed in order to lay flat for study and presentation. I don't think squeeking another .02 grade out of a comic book would qualify as their definition of necessary.

 

They said flatten works, not me. It's part of the quote that you posted. And where do they detail when they would and when they would not add moisture? You seem to believe you know when they would and wouldn't.

 

And I have to wonder why the LOC chose to end their response with a selection of links to websites that sell products in which to store comics, rather than links to the numerous studies that they mentioned.

 

Their response is very broad. Is introducing heat that's one degree higher than the ambient temperature damaging to the comic? Ten degrees? They're not specific.

 

What is the extent of the accelerated aging? As Joey said, is the book going to last 490 years now rather than 535?

 

Can we get any specifics here?

You both used the phase "flatten works" so I put that in quotes.

 

As to when they use moisture...they stated the following:

 

"In controlled environments, conservators sometimes use humidification to flatten works. However, the method by which it occurs and on what kinds of paper are both very broad factors that are considered. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

And nice try, but I never said I knew exactly when they would and wouldn't use moisture to flatten an item. Their response indicates that they consider the need and the resulting negative consequences to the paper item very carefully before they resort to that measure. Can you, or Matt, or any of the other pressers say the same?

 

The actual U.S. Library of Congress has spoken on a very well presented question by Fantastic_Four regarding pressing. These are probably the worlds foremost authorities on paper conservation and would understand the context and methods of pressing paper to improve it's appearance while trying to minimize damage to it. The question on whether pressing causes damage has been answered. It does damage the paper. Nothing is ever going to be good enough for the presser though...there's always one more question to ask in an attempt to keep the "no damage" debate going.

 

You shouldn't ever smoke, because even that one cigarette might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever eat a double cheeseburger, because it might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever press a comic, because the damage the process does will shorten its lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

See, without specifics....it just doesn't mean anything to me.

 

 

And that is a strawman...facts have been presented but no facts have been countered...

 

Heat and humidity are suggested to harm paper by a very credible source. Unless you have a counter then your's is a mute point...

 

Jim

 

How much heat? How much moisture? Details please.

 

Who the heck cares? Your're manipulating a comic using procedures that are proven to be harmful.

 

Foir a comic lover you'd think they'd keep their comics far away...

 

Jim

[Domo Arigato]

You're asking me to blindly accept a broad stroke response from someone at the LOC who backs up his claims with "numerous studies" but fails to mention what studies he's referring to? In what scientific journal would that be acceptable?

By contrast...you're asking the collecting community to blindly accept what commercial pressers (who do it for profit) claim with regard to no damage being done but fail to back that up. In what bizarro world would that ever be acceptable?

 

No thanks...I'd rather trust the U.S. Library of Congress.

[Dale Roberts]

If you buy a car, do you not ask questions about the car? Why wouldn't the same actions apply when buying comics? If you don't want to buy a pressed book, ask the dealer if it has been pressed. If the answer is anything other than "no", don't buy it.

 

Because I assume it hasn't been manipulated. Like a car. If it was swamped in Hurricane Ike you better damn tell me. Full disclosure is what you need...

 

Jim

 

uhh, to use your analogy, a comic which would have been swamped would probably have been chemically cleaned and completely rebuilt.

 

Pressing is more like putting a coat of wax on a car.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Restoration does not return a book to its original state. It only brings the appearance of the original state. Restoration brings a change in mass(as with adding pieces or trimming), or a change in the chemical composition of the book(adding pieces or color, or chemical cleaning). Pressing does neither of these things. Pressing can, in fact, bring a book to (or nearer to) its original state.

Nope, this is what restoration is. Restoration is treatment intended to return a comic book to a known or assumed state by adding non-original material. Detected restoration is always disclosed on the CGC certification label. Non-additive procedures, such as pressing, dry cleaning and tape removal, are not classified as restoration by CGC. Trimmed books are given an apparent grade, and, in accordance with CGC's policy, are encapsulated with CGC's restored label. Learn more about comic book restoration. Pressing is simply a flattening process. Doesn't do anything else.

 

This is the kind of mis-information that gets repeated over and over until people actually start believing it's true. And it's really starting to me off.

 

"Using heat to reduce creases, wrinkles, or other planar distortions is not recommended by professional paper conservators. Many studies have shown that increased heat accelerates paper aging, especially papers made from groundwood pulp.

 

In controlled environments, conservators sometimes use humidification to flatten works. However, the method by which it occurs and on what kinds of paper are both very broad factors that are considered. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

-- Paper Conservator - Conservation Division - U.S. Library of Congress

 

This is from Classic Inc website...

 

We strive to make sure every technique is safe for the short and long term. Our pressing process does not involve disassembly, nor do we use abrasive materials like chemicals, or perform any work that would constitute restoration. No excessive pressure or heat is used in our work. You will not receive comics that appear to be "pancaked," or any other unfortunate side effect that usually occurs with improper pressing. The end result is undetectable, with each comic exhibiting a fresh, untouched feel and look.

Yes...that is a quote from a website that presses comic books for profit. The fact is...they do use heat and pressure...and I believe they also use moisture (water) if needed. And simply because a book does not appear to be "pancaked"...does not mean that it hasn't suffered any damage.

 

The U.S. Library of Congress (someone who doesn't press comics for profit) clearly stated:

 

"Using heat to reduce creases, wrinkles, or other planar distortions is not recommended by professional paper conservators. Many studies have shown that increased heat accelerates paper aging, especially papers made from groundwood pulp. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

I think increased heat would have to be defined, and compared to what, if any, heat is actually used for this argument to have any merit. Also, the paragraph you quote here talks about the perils of introducing moisture, but doesn't the very next paragraph in the full quote you posted earlier talk about conservators sometimes adding humidifiation to flatten works?

Yes they will introduce moisture...but only if it's necessary as you say to "flatten works". As FFB mentioned in that thread, the Decleration of Independence was stored for years rolled up in a tube. It would have to be pressed in order to lay flat for study and presentation. I don't think squeeking another .02 grade out of a comic book would qualify as their definition of necessary.

 

They said flatten works, not me. It's part of the quote that you posted. And where do they detail when they would and when they would not add moisture? You seem to believe you know when they would and wouldn't.

 

And I have to wonder why the LOC chose to end their response with a selection of links to websites that sell products in which to store comics, rather than links to the numerous studies that they mentioned.

 

Their response is very broad. Is introducing heat that's one degree higher than the ambient temperature damaging to the comic? Ten degrees? They're not specific.

 

What is the extent of the accelerated aging? As Joey said, is the book going to last 490 years now rather than 535?

 

Can we get any specifics here?

You both used the phase "flatten works" so I put that in quotes.

 

As to when they use moisture...they stated the following:

 

"In controlled environments, conservators sometimes use humidification to flatten works. However, the method by which it occurs and on what kinds of paper are both very broad factors that are considered. Once any moisture is introduced into the paper sheet, any number of chemical reactions can begin. Many conservators elect to accept minor wrinkling and creasing as part of the artifact's history of use, rather then subject the work to what may begin or cause premature aging and discoloration."

 

And nice try, but I never said I knew exactly when they would and wouldn't use moisture to flatten an item. Their response indicates that they consider the need and the resulting negative consequences to the paper item very carefully before they resort to that measure. Can you, or Matt, or any of the other pressers say the same?

 

The actual U.S. Library of Congress has spoken on a very well presented question by Fantastic_Four regarding pressing. These are probably the worlds foremost authorities on paper conservation and would understand the context and methods of pressing paper to improve it's appearance while trying to minimize damage to it. The question on whether pressing causes damage has been answered. It does damage the paper. Nothing is ever going to be good enough for the presser though...there's always one more question to ask in an attempt to keep the "no damage" debate going.

 

You shouldn't ever smoke, because even that one cigarette might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever eat a double cheeseburger, because it might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever press a comic, because the damage the process does will shorten its lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

See, without specifics....it just doesn't mean anything to me.

 

 

And that is a strawman...facts have been presented but no facts have been countered...

 

Heat and humidity are suggested to harm paper by a very credible source. Unless you have a counter then your's is a mute point...

 

Jim

 

Jim, as usual, you miss the point. I am not contesting that Pressing may do damage on some level to a comic. I'm simply saying that unless that damage can be quantified and shown to be something that will impact the state of the book in our lifetimes, its pretty f'n meaningless to me.

[nearmint]

You shouldn't ever smoke, because even that one cigarette might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever eat a double cheeseburger, because it might shorten your lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

You shouldn't ever press a comic, because the damage the process does will shorten its lifespan by a completely undeterminable length of time.

 

See, without specifics....it just doesn't mean anything to me.

Smoking does cause damage to your body.

fact

 

Eating a double cheeseburger is unhealthy.

fact

 

Pressing a comic does damage it.

fact

 

Even without specifics...these facts are very important to me.

 

Tell you what, Domo, just for argument's sake, let's say that you're right.

 

Now what?