Time for CGC to get rid of the PLOD & GLOD, they serve no purpose!

[lou_fine]

For the non-Golden Age forum members. I just notice that the CGC label coding has moved over into the General Comics section. The following is a copy of my post from the Adventure Comics #40 thread in the GA section from Wednesday night which initiated this whole discussion about a unified label system:

 

 

Re: Adventure Comics #40 CGC 9.2 [Re: CentaurMan]

#371392 - 01/21/04 10:48 PM Edit Reply Quote

 

 

 

 

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They say the restoration is "very minor". I wonder, if they chose to put it in a Blue label instead of a Purple one, with the same label notes, how much difference would there be in the ultimate selling price of the comic?

 

 

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The colour of the label makes ALL the difference in the world when it comes to pricing. The MH copy of More Fun #52 with restoration has a blue label and was able to sell for multiples of guide. Without the restoration, I am sure that it would have gone for even higher multiples of guide. This is the third or fourth go round for the MH Adventure #40. With the PLOD, it will probably not be able to find a buyer unless the reserve is set much closer to guide.

 

To bring up a point which I have been harping on for a long time, CGC has done nothing but serious damage to the restored book market through their indiscriminate use of colour labels. For the price which we are paying, CGC should come out with only one colour label (especially GA books) and specify BOTH a condition grade ALONG with a restoration rating from zero to ten. A zero rating would represent no restoration with a 10 rating representing extensive restoration. This way, the market would be able to more fairly determine what was acceptable in the marketplace and pay accordingly. In this situation, GA books may be seen as acceptable with restoration ratings up to 3, early SA books may be fine up to 1, and BA and Modern books may be acceptable only with a rating of zero. The key is that the marketplace instead of CGC will decide what is acceptable with respect to restoration in the same way it currently decides what is acceptable (price) based upon the CGC grade. Any bets that if CGC ever do decide to move to a one colour label system, you'll see all the speculators and investors jump onto the bandwagon and start picking up GA books with only slight restoration.

 

On the other hand, I guess CGC could move in the other direction and extend their purple label to include all books graded below 9.4.

 

 

 

[lou_fine]

This was my second of three posts on the unified label system from the GA section and was in response to Aman's and Steve B's negative opinion. It should be noted that after this post along with posts from two other forum members, Aman switched sides and started to also argue for one unified label system:

 

 

Re: Adventure Comics #40 CGC 9.2 [Re: sborock]

#372351 - 01/22/04 09:49 PM Edit Reply Quote

 

 

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you really think so?

Restoration was already out of favor when CGC started slabbing them purple. Its just a visual clue so you know right away that the book has had work, which for most of us, is a red signal shouting "dont buy". Everyone blames the LABEL when its the RESTORATION itself that lowers the value.

 

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Very true, people are just mad at nickels for not being dimes

 

That being said, properly and/or slightly restored comics don't get the respect they deserve in the market place. There is nothing wrong with it as long as there is full disclosure, done right, and it is priced correctly.

 

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I agree that restoration was already out of favor prior to the birth of CGC. Restored books have always sold at a discount to guide, but never to the extent that they have been since CGC started branding them with their purple labels. It was only at this point that they took the deep plunge which they have still not recover from.

 

Yes, the restoration is part of the problem. The use of colour labels only serves to magify the problem. Speculators and investors use the CGC label colour as the mark of acceptability when they should be paying more attention to the restoration notes. This is why blue label GA books with minor restoration will still sell for multiples of guide while purple label GA books with minor restoration will sell only at a deep discount to guide. In this case, the colour of the label makes all the difference in the world since both books are still exhibiting minor amounts of restoration.

 

Steve, you just have to look at yourself in the mirror. The use of colour labels is the number one reason why restored books don't get the respect which they use to have, and why they have sunk to such a low level in today's marketplace. A one colour label system with a restoration rating is a much more fairer system and will let the marketplace instead of CGC to determine the acceptability of individual restored books. I can see it from your end in that it would be nothing but problems and open a whole new can of worms similar to the current high end grading disputes.

 

One final point to people who think that the problem is restoration and has nothing to do with the colour of the label. Imagine a new CGC grading system whereby all books graded lower than 9.4 are given a purple label to denote that they are lower than near mint. This should make posters like Aman happy because CGC is providing a visual clue and raising a obvious red flag on out of favour non-NM books without buyers having to worry about reading the grade. I will bet my entire comic collection that this will result in an immediate drop in price for all purple label < 9.4 books even though their grades have not changed. The only thing that changed was the colour of the label. IMHO

 

 

 

 

[lou_fine]

The following post was my third and final post from the GA section and was in response to Timely's post which has now been transferred over as the original post for this thread:

 

 

Re: Adventure Comics #40 CGC 9.2 [Re: Timely]

#374409 - 01/25/04 01:56 AM Edit Reply Quote

 

 

Timely;

 

I hope your PM to Steve B results in a satisfactory response from him on this very important subject matter. This topic has been bought up before without a definitive response back from CGC.

 

I feel your proposal is a step in the right direction in that it will result in a unified labelling system. I feel, however, that if the hobby is to make a change in this very important area, it should use this opportunity to go all the way and do it properly. I feel there are three important factors to consider when evaluating a comic book. The first is the condition grade of the book, the second is the page quality, and the third is the type and extent of restoration on the book, if any. I feel that CGC has implemented a system which has adequately addressed the first two factors. When it comes to the controversial area of restoration, however, CGC has lacked the tenacity and political will to address the issue fully, leaving us with the current wishy washy system.

 

When CGC first started a few years ago, GA colectors saw this as an opportunity to finally INFORM and EDUCATE the collector base with respect to the touchy area of restoration. As a result of the lack of committment from all parties to fully address this issue, however, I feel we have been left with a system which has only serve to INFORM and MISEDUCATE the marketplace with respect to the issue of restoration. Nobody wants to pay any attention to the actual details of restoration anymore, with the issue simply being dumbed down to the mindless choice between blue and purple.

 

Jon Berk, a long-time GA collector, wrote an excellent article on the inside back cover of the September 2001 issue of CBM #85 advocating an 10 point restoration system ranging from R-0 to R-10 based upon type and degree of restoration. I strongly support his proposal and feel that this would add a level of sophistication and integrity to finally address this controversial issue and benefit the hobby in the long run. This whole issue was to have been addressed in the 2002 edition of the OS Grading Guide as a number of collectors were initially contacted to elicit their expression of interest in participating in a forum on restoration for the upcoming grading guide. I assume an unfortunate decision must have been made somewhere to avoid this controversial area since no subsequent follow-up was done after the initial contact. In my point of view, a big missed opportunity for the hobby to take another step forward.

 

This issue of restoration is too big and important for CGC to address on thier own. As Jon Berk stated in his article, a public discussion or forum is needed which would include the major players within the industry. This would include not only CGC, but also major dealers such as Fishler, Blazing Bob, etc; major collectors such as Jon Berk, Timely, etc; along with power players such as Geppi and Overstreet to add a level of validity and integrity to the entire process.

 

I believe the hobby and the marketplace is not only ready to take this next step, but mature enough to demand and expect it from the powers that be. Since the current system allows us to clearly differentiate between condition grades such as VF 8.0 from NM 9.4 and page quality such as white from cream, it should also allow us to differentiate between restoration ratings such as R-2 and R-6. All it needs is guidelines and parameters deliniating and assigning demerit points for various types and degrees of restoration. The current system unfortunately forces us to view minor restoration such as pressing or a microdot of colour touch in the SAME PURPLE LIGHT as major restoration such as trimming, pieces added, or repair.

 

That's about enough of my point of view on the topic of restoration. Anybody else with an opinion to share with the rest of the forum.

 

 

[Illiterati-migration]

The use of colour labels is the number one reason why restored books don't get the respect which they use to have, and why they have sunk to such a low level in today's marketplace. A one colour label system with a restoration rating is a much more fairer system and will let the marketplace instead of CGC to determine the acceptability of individual restored books. I can see it from your end in that it would be nothing but problems and open a whole new can of worms similar to the current high end grading disputes.

 

Lou, I think you're missing a very important point here:

 

There are people in this hobby (a number apparently in sharp decline, mind you) that aren't in it to make a buck.

 

 

Unfortunately, this hobby is rapidly shifting from a "collector-based" industry (full of people who READ comic books and KEEP comic books for reasons other than monetary value), to an "investor-based" industry where everyone is out to nail the next fad, and consequently, the next guy down the line... so maybe you've got a point after all.

[aardvark88]

Jon Berk & Lou_Fine's analysis makes the most sense to me. R 0 to R10 resto blue label scale would give comics especially GA comics a fighting chance on getting some decent bids by INFORMing & educating the masses. It is grossly unfair that GA or SA books that are only professionally cleaned & pressed (to return the comic to its original lustre) purple label sell for 60-80% below condition Ostreet.

[Illiterati-migration]

Jon Berk & Lou_Fine's analysis makes the most sense to me. R 0 to R10 resto blue label scale would give comics especially GA comics a fighting chance on getting some decent bids by INFORMing & educating the masses. It is grossly unfair that GA or SA books that are only professionally cleaned & pressed (to return the comic to its original lustre) purple label sell for 60-80% below condition Ostreet.

 

Do you really think it's the COLOR of the label that is hurting the selling price?? The books have been modified. People want originals. Maybe the problem here is Overstreet? Maybe it should list "values" for restored grades as well as "original" condition books?

[PovertyRow]

I've been saying this almost since day one, but am of two minds. I do believe the color of the label makes a strong impact on what sells. Yet, if this impact contnues, then fine deals can be had through the purchasing of PLODs.

 

The objective side of me says that many say "Buy the book not the label" in which case the label color should make no difference and a properly notated blue label revealing restoration should certainly suffice. The subjective side says "why do you want to increase the price of restored books by using the blue label when there are great opportunities there?"

[Timely]

My point is if CGC is going to continue to use the PLOD and GLOD they might as well take a spray paint can and spray a big "X" across the front cover of each holder pointing out to all of comicdom that this comic sucks!

 

Timely

[sfilosa]

My point is if CGC is going to continue to use the PLOD and GLOD they might as well take a spray paint can and spray a big "X" across the front cover of each holder pointing out to all of comicdom that this comic sucks!

 

 

Very Funny!!!

 

 

Actually after thinking about it for a few days, what I really believe CGC should have done is this:

 

If the Restoration / Preservation caused ZERO impact on the grade, than THOSE books should be the ones in UNIVERSAL (BLUE) labels, regardless of age. Still the restoration should be noted. Therefore a tear seal to the cover, would not affect the grade since the tear would still be included in the final grade.

 

I would also put "Cleaned and Pressed" in Universal Blue (but noted), since for many years, it was debated if this should be considered restoration at all.

 

All this said, only professional work would be able to still get the blue label. In other words, a cleaning and pressing poorly performed or even the small color touch with a magic marker would get the dread Purple Label.

 

 

 

 

[Timely]

I would also put "Cleaned and Pressed" in Universal Blue (but noted), since for many years, it was debated if this should be considered restoration at all.

 

 

Lets suppose you lay a comic on a table for one month. In that month dirt, dust and other particulates fall on it. If you were to blow off the dust, guess what?!? You have just CLEANED your comic. Cleaned comics are Restored! You now have a restored comic. Enjoy!

 

Stupid huh!?!

 

Timely

[fantastic_four]

Lets suppose you lay a comic on a table for one month. In that month dirt, dust and other particulates fall on it. If you were to blow off the dust, guess what?!? You have just CLEANED your comic. Cleaned comics are Restored! You now have a restored comic. Enjoy!

 

You've got a method to detect that type of cleaning? PLEASE SHARE!!!

[towards2112]

I buy the book,

not the label.

[Timely]

Lets suppose you lay a comic on a table for one month. In that month dirt, dust and other particulates fall on it. If you were to blow off the dust, guess what?!? You have just CLEANED your comic. Cleaned comics are Restored! You now have a restored comic. Enjoy!

 

You've got a method to detect that type of cleaning? PLEASE SHARE!!!

 

Of course not, no one does. But the word "Restoration" is vague at best. There are many types of restoration that cannot be detected or assertained 100% by CGC or anyone else out there. We need to find a better system to catagorize restoration than what we currently have!

 

Timely

[lou_fine]

Jon Berk & Lou_Fine's analysis makes the most sense to me. R 0 to R10 resto blue label scale would give comics especially GA comics a fighting chance on getting some decent bids by INFORMing & educating the masses. It is grossly unfair that GA or SA books that are only professionally cleaned & pressed (to return the comic to its original lustre) purple label sell for 60-80% below condition Ostreet.

 

Do you really think it's the COLOR of the label that is hurting the selling price?? The books have been modified. People want originals. Maybe the problem here is Overstreet? Maybe it should list "values" for restored grades as well as "original" condition books?

 

Yes, very definitely. The colour of the label makes all the difference in the world when it comes to pricing. You just have to look back at some of the prior Heritage and Manning auction results. Blue labelled books denoted with minor restoration virtually always sells for multiples of guide while purpled labelled books denoted with minor restoration always sells at a deep discount to guide ever since the implementation of CGC. The colour of the label in this case, rather than the relatively small difference in the extent of the restoration explains the huge difference in price.

 

You also pointed out in a earlier post that the hobby is moving from a collector base market to more of a investor base market. In the interest of protecting these novice investors, should we not be petitioning CGC to reinstate the use of the red label or to apply the dreaded purple label on all Modern books. In this way, CGC would be providing an invaluable service through a clear visual warning that these books are nothing more than a huge financial risk to any potential buyers.

 

To reiterate my second post, CGC should also slab any book grading less than a NM 9.4 with a purple label to clearly and visually warn any potential buyer that this book may not be of true investment quality. After all, the marketplace needs the colour labels in order to clearly differentiate the non-NM books from the NM books similar to how we need the colour labels to differentiate the restored books from the unrestored books. No need for any of the forum members to worry here since most of you say that the price is determined by the book, not the colour of the label. Investors will still continue to pay outragous multiples of guide for those 9.2 graded copies of early FF's from Blazing Bob or early JIM's because they have just been blessed with the newly minted CGC purple label denoting non-investment quality lower than near mint stamp of disapproval. All I can say here is that JC will be really happy because his forecast of the coming comic book market crash in 2004 will be realized immediately.

 

Seriously though, I don't see how a unified label system which incorporates a RESTORATION RATING along with RESTORATION NOTES would blur the difference between restored and unrestored books and be used to mask the fraudulent sale of restored books as unrestored books. In fact, I feel that this system would provide even MORE INFORMATION for the potential purchaser to make a more informed purchasing decision. In comparison, the current numeric condition grade provides far less information than the proposed restoration system. CGC has even taken out the non-numeric grade, and good luck if you want grading notes to explain the final condition grade.

 

It's high time to level the playing field so that ALL BOOKS can be viewed in the marketplace from an unbiased point of view and this can only be achieved through a unified label system taking condition grade, page quality, and restoration rating into account. IMHO

 

 

 

 

[the_Greatest]

........

[murph0]

And when they're changed (which I highly doubt they are, and don't think they should be..), what will your excuse be for prices being the exact same? Should the labels be then changed once again so there's no differentiation between the two? I mean.. that's what you'd have to move towards next. Restored books and Unrestored books being identified the the same. AKA undisclosed restoration. Truly insane.

 

Brian

[Illiterati-migration]

And when they're changed (which I highly doubt they are, and don't think they should be..), what will your excuse be for prices being the exact same? Should the labels be then changed once again so there's no differentiation between the two? I mean.. that's what you'd have to move towards next. Restored books and Unrestored books being identified the the same. AKA undisclosed restoration. Truly insane.

 

Brian

 

Murph, Murph, Murph... read between the lines here! With the PLOD and GLOD labels gone prices on [!@#%^&^] books will skyrocket because people won't know what they're buying! Imagine all the auctions with the tiny, tiny scans...

 

I'm going to start buying PLODs now so I can have them resubbed when the "change" comes. Cha-ching!

[lou_fine]

And when they're changed (which I highly doubt they are, and don't think they should be..), what will your excuse be for prices being the exact same? Should the labels be then changed once again so there's no differentiation between the two? I mean.. that's what you'd have to move towards next. Restored books and Unrestored books being identified the the same. AKA undisclosed restoration. Truly insane.

 

Brian

 

Brian;

 

I don't think you are fully understanding the restoration system which Jon Berk and I are proposing. All books would be given a restoration rating. An unrestored book would be given a restoration rating of R-0. Restored books would be given restoration ratings ranging from R-1 to R-10 depending upon both type and extent of restoration. This rating would be CLEARLY identified on the CGC label along with the current restoration notes. There would be NO undisclosed restoration here unless it was missed by CGC.

 

You should probably flip over to the GA Adventure #40 thread or back to the bottom of page 7 of this thread to see the system which I am proposing. If you think the system which I am proposing for restoration is insane, than you must think the current 10-point grading system which is currently in place for condition grading is equally insane. To say that a future purchaser will not be able to understand the difference between a R-2 restoration rating from a R-8 rating with disclosed notes is analogous to saying that a current purchaser cannot understand the difference between a condition grade of 2.0 versus a grade of 9.0 in today's market.

 

I cannot believe that a purchaser who is spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on a book cannot comprehend these kinds of differences and would be totally confused in the marketplace.

[Darthdiesel]

Since when does cGC disclose all resto notes and wouldn't the "R" designation essentially be serving the same purpose as the label color scheme was intended to in the first place, except that the letter "R" does not stand out as much and that scammers can manipulate auctions and scans to their benefit and fool the naive buyer? I guess the current purple label can be "photoshopped" into a light blue (see threads re: Jauito and his selectively "malfunctioning scanner") but the miniscule "r" designation facilitates selling books with undisclosed restoration.

 

Some people just don't like restored books. I don't think any Moderns are even candidates for restoration; just Golden Age books that are falling apart and about to crumble are the only books that NEED restoration for preservation's sake. Keep the scheme the way it is. Prices on restoreds will not change until the comic community decides to "forgive" these books for the shame they have brought in the past as tools of the greedy, unethical dealer who would sell these intentionally as unrestored to make a buck off the unaware. Until such a time, no label manipulation or new "R" designation will get the masses to pay more for restored books. Heck, I might even buy Golden Age keys just because they sell at restored prices (5% of guide at apparent grade? IMO it should be lower for these preserved/restored/affected/color touched/trimmed/chemically cleaned/bleached/noticeably pressed/married/"Frankenstein" books). Once you start raising the value of these books to compete with untouched books that are at the grade they are in "naturally", as they have been kept over the ages without additives, then I would see it as a time to bail out because you have just borught us back to pre CGC days and reintroduced the potential for rampant fraud with these "restored" books all over again...

[murph0]

If the purple label is the only thing preventing these restored books from skyrocketing. Break them out. See what good that gets you.

 

Brian