Time for CGC to get rid of the PLOD & GLOD, they serve no purpose!

[PovertyRow]

Huh? Did I say that???

 

24 hours and 600 posts later, I don't remember WHO said it. Too many intertwined grading and restoration threads these days!

 

Phew - I'm the guy who sometimes gets yelled at because I say I have no problems at all reading HG books (carefully).

[Illiterati-migration]

Huh? Did I say that???

 

24 hours and 600 posts later, I don't remember WHO said it. Too many intertwined grading and restoration threads these days!

 

Phew - I'm the guy who sometimes gets yelled at because I say I have no problems at all reading HG books (carefully).

 

YOU WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

 

 

 

[lou_fine]

So what you are saying is that if there is a pen mark on a GA book and cgc has to notate as color touch thereby giving it the blue label with notes, that is the same as someone who has deliberatley color touched and glue sealed the spine trying to get that last .02 out of a book and earning the plod, that those are in essence the same book? IMO all books with any restoration questions should have a purple label and plod should be priced based on the level of restoration. If you read my previous posts you would see my point is that the dealer and collecting community determines the value of the book, not CGC. I find it disturbing that you feel that changing the color of the label for restored books will ressurect that sector of the market. The only thing that will breathe life into that market is if the dealer community stands up and says we will BUY as well as sell restored CGC books and I do not see that happening in my lifetime

 

Bullet;

 

I actually believe that our goal is the same, it's just that we have a different approach to trying to achieve it. We both believe that the value of a book should be dependent on the level of restoration and should be determined by the open marketplace.

 

The point which I am trying to make is that we do not have a level playing field with the two tier colour labelling system which is currently in place. Collectors are simply so scared off by the purple label that they automatically passed right by the book without paying any attention to the level of restoration. As long as it has been tagged purple, they simply lumped books which have had a pressing or a microdot of colour touch in the same pot as the books which have had trimming or extensive repair. As mentioned in the "Clean, Press, Resubmit, Flip" thread, this is analagous to CGC implementing a system whereby they would tag current 9.2 graded books exactly the same as 2.0 graded books with a ungraded purple label.

 

What exactly is wrong with implementing a formal 10-point restoration rating system as proposed on the other thread with a unified colour label system along with full disclosure notes? Would this not facilitate the focus to be on the type and extent of the restoration, if any, and also finally help to educate the collectors with respect to restoration similar to how we have been educated with respect to condition with the current 10-point grading system?

[AllTop8Me]

So why should CGC change something that only SOME people view as a problem?

 

Because CGC is supposed to have a more experienced and balanced viewpoint than their customers; that's what anybody who purchases an information-related service is paying for. Most people don't know enough about restoration and its history to have an informed opinion on the topic.

 

That's part of it. Another part is that the PLOD is taking value out of restored/conserved books, not Blue Label books. Thus, unrestored purists are untroubled by the issue. As are true collectors, who enjoy the bargains. The people being harmed by PLODs are the discrete, though probably not small, percentage of comic book owners who own restored/conseved books and are dismayed at their unwarranted devaluation. Should CGC not be sensitive to these collectors? Is the argument that this does not include all comic book purchasers persuasive? What would happen if the fire department stopped servicing neighborhood A but still serviced other neighborhoods? Would the fact that only residents of neighborhood A are complaining about the harm done to their assets mean that the grievance need not be addressed?

[garthgantu]

That's part of it. Another part is that the PLOD is taking value out of restored/conserved books, not Blue Label books. Thus, unrestored purists are untroubled by the issue. As are true collectors, who enjoy the bargains. The people being harmed by PLODs are the discrete, though probably not small, percentage of comic book owners who own restored/conseved books and are dismayed at their unwarranted devaluation. Should CGC not be sensitive to these collectors? Is the argument that this does not include all comic book purchasers persuasive? What would happen if the fire department stopped servicing neighborhood A but still serviced other neighborhoods? Would the fact that only residents of neighborhood A are complaining about the harm done to their assets mean that the grievance need not be addressed?

 

Great point, AllTop - to which I would add, *every last one of us* could be the proud owner of a PLOD, when our next shipment from CGC arrives... so to use your analogy of the fire dept, we all run the risk that tomorrow, a tornado picks up our house and deposits it firmly in the "neighborhood A" of slabbed books...

[OldGuy]

There's one point here that you're conviniently ignoring. There is no outcry by the MAJORITY of collectors to get rid of the PLOD and GLOD labels. There is an outcry by SOME collectors such as yourself and Lou Fine but as you can see by this thread it's a very heatedly debated issue. So why should CGC change something that only SOME people view as a problem? I do agree with some of your points but you seem to be deciding what collectors in general want based on the views of a limited segment of the collector community.

 

Unfortunately I don't think CGC cares much about what collectors think. They seem to be more dealer (money) driven then anything else to me. I think every collector could feel the way Timely (and some others) does and it wouldn't matter until enough dealers got on the bandwagon.

[AllTop8Me]

Unfortunately I don't think CGC cares much about what collectors think. They seem to be more dealer (money) driven then anything else to me. I think every collector could feel the way Timely (and some others) does and it wouldn't matter until enough dealers got on the bandwagon.

 

Fair enough, assuming most submissions come from dealers. But even if they are, why do you think dealers want to stigmatize restored books? Doesn't it hurt their business, devaluing books that are sitting in their inventory? I would think that the loss in value to a dealer's PLODed books far outweighs any increase in the value of his Blue Labels due to the effective removal of the PLODed books from the serious collector market.

[Mr. Zipper]

Unfortunately I don't think CGC cares much about what collectors think. They seem to be more dealer (money) driven then anything else to me. I think every collector could feel the way Timely (and some others) does and it wouldn't matter until enough dealers got on the bandwagon.

 

Excellent point, and to further refine it.... a (subliminal?) component of the CGC appeal to its target audience is ELITISM. The PLOD has been deemed a second class citizen and many high grade collectors like it that way. The last thing they want are books with tear seals dirtying up their neighborhood and driving property values down. CGC would be reluctant to rethink the PLOD because it would devalue the stock of their biggest shareholders.

 

[garthgantu]

There's something to what you say, Zipper, but I think that ultimately CGC has the opportunity and the influence to "help" restored books gain some currency without incurring the wrath of BSDs and other 'elitists'.

 

And to OldGuy's point, that CGC caters to dealers, not collectors - I think that's true. But who do the dealers cater to? Collectors. So it's an indirect path, to be sure, but I don't see how a letter-writing campaign to Metropolis, SNE, et al. is going to make this happen. Discussing the issue intelligently in a forum frequented by CGC and some of the BSDs and dealers to whom it caters, might have some impact - if not now, then down the road.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Someday.....all the BSD's and 'elitists' will come to realize that without us insignificant collectors ....they're doomed.

 

How soon they all forget about......

 

"The Fear"

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Timely]

Perhaps one way to settle whether eliminating the PLOD & GLOD is for CGC to send out a survey to it's customers, those dealers and collectors who are actually sending in the books! Dealers like Metropolis, who have thousands of restored books would benifit greatly from the one-color-label format, as would all of the collectors who could now see and understand what the label represents.

 

I see no downside to it at all.

 

Some of you argue that it will further blend restored and unrestored books together and that people will be confused. I argue that only a complete insufficiently_thoughtful_person or a child under the age of 5 could not tell the difference between the following:

 

9.4

9.4Q

9.4R

 

If they cannot differentiate the difference between these 3 labels they should not buy the product!

 

Timely

[THE_BEYONDER]

Keep in mind....."collectors" that buy PLODs like their current prices.

 

 

 

[AllTop8Me]

Perhaps one way to settle whether eliminating the PLOD & GLOD is for CGC to send out a survey to it's customers, those dealers and collectors who are actually sending in the books! Dealers like Metropolis, who have thousands of restored books would benifit greatly from the one-color-label format, as would all of the collectors who could now see and understand what the label represents.

 

I see no downside to it at all.

 

Some of you argue that it will further blend restored and unrestored books together and that people will be confused. I argue that only a complete insufficiently_thoughtful_person or a child under the age of 5 could not tell the difference between the following:

 

9.4

9.4Q

9.4R

 

If they cannot differentiate the difference between these 3 labels they should not buy the product!

 

Timely

 

This is better than the PLOD, but if we're really to eradicate the conception the PLOD has spawned that all restoration/conservation is equal - equally purple or equally R - we need to move to a system that ALWAYS accompanies a grade by the level, from 0 to 9 or whatever, of restoration. Books should be "9.4/R-0" or "9.4/R-3" etc. There will of course remain a difference in value between R-0 and R-1, but it will be less than if R-1 through R-9 are all lumped a single, undifferentiated R. Furthermore, I still believe that a page whiteness grade should be given, or the implication is that page quality is it not important. A CGC grade that differentiates between 5.5 and 6.0, and between R-3 and R-4, should also distinguish between OWL 7 and OWL 8. Among many other things, this will also make GP Analysis and even MORE useful tool, which will redound to CGC's benefit too.

[Mr. Zipper]

Keep in mind....."collectors" that buy PLODs like their current prices.

 

Yeah.... if anyone wants to wash their hands of an X-Men 1 or JIM 83 slight PLOD, LMK. I will takes those slight tear seals, trims or color touches for a 60 - 80% discount.

 

 

[Aman619]

Excellent point, and to further refine it.... a (subliminal?) component of the CGC appeal to its target audience is ELITISM. The PLOD has been deemed a second class citizen and many high grade collectors like it that way. The last thing they want are books with tear seals dirtying up their neighborhood and driving property values down. CGC would be reluctant to rethink the PLOD because it would devalue the stock of their biggest shareholders.

 

well, duhh, PLODS ARE second class citizens in the comics world. They always HAVE been too! Tastes have changed, spurred by CGCs labelling system, and restored books of every stripe are totally out of favor right now. Its probably an overreaction. But CGC has affected the whole ballgfame, hasnt it? Is the devaluing that restored books have sufferred out of proportion to the hype and fuel-injected price increases the 9.4s and 9.6s have experienced??? NO!! CGC has wreaked havoc with BOTH ends of the scale.

 

I don't hear any of you restored book afficianodos who are incensed that your books have dwindled in value complaining about the comics you bought years ago that suddenly morphed into 10x Guide 9.4s!!! We're ALL still reacting to how extensively CGC has changed the rules we all knew so well for so long!! CGC hath giveth and taketh away from all of us...

 

Only time will sort it all out...not a change in the slabbing labels.

 

Face it, like anything you buy or invest in, sometimes you back the wrong horse. Restored books turned out to be the wrong horse. Given that comics have always risen in price I can understand it cant be a comfortable feeling to actually lose money on a comic book.... my sympathies...

[lou_fine]

Important message:

 

Aman just came up with an excellent proposal over in the Gold forum to resolve this restoration issue as per the attached post below. He suggests that we should all help CGC get out of the pornography business by lumping all books into one category and letting everybody decide on the grade based upon their own personal taste and preferences.

 

How does everybody else feel about this retro idea to go back to the future:

 

 

Re: Adventure Comics #40 CGC 9.2 [Re: aman619]

#378818 - 01/29/04 10:59 PM Edit Reply Quote

 

 

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

you seem to want a system which differentiates between 'good' restoration and 'bad' restoration. Avtually, I would too. But the distinction sounds a lot like defining pornography: "I know it when I see it" and each of us have different standards.

 

So why not simply throw them ALL into the same category and let the 'good' ones, whatever each of us deem them to be, rise to the top.

Its that, or everyone agree on standards, which, letsface it, just aint gonna happen.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Aman;

 

I have to warn you. You better be real real careful with what you say here since these boards still belong to CGC. I am absolutely shocked that you would have the nerve to accuse Steve B. and the rest of the CGC gang as "defining pornography". I also believe that fellow forum members such as Darth would have an absolute heart attack if CGC deceided to take your advice and simply divided all the books into two categories: near mint books and defective books.

 

By throwing all the books into the same category and letting everybody decide on their own as to what is good or bad will put CGC and fellow forum members such as Darth right out of business. Why are you proposing that we go back to the pre-CGC days when there were no independent grading. Actually, come to think of it, this might not be such a bad idea after all. I'll be able to afford to buy those former high grade books as they plummet down in price. Aman, are you sure that you are not really JC in disguise trying to make your forecast of a market crash in 2004 come true.

 

I have an idea! Why don't we all take a vote to see if we should accept Aman's proposal and lump all books into one category and let everybody decide on their own grade. Ah, the days of nostalgia as we go back to pre-CGC times and those wonderful Wild West days of grading and wheeling and dealing.

 

 

P.S. Can't chat anymore since I have go update my hockey pool for February

 

 

 

[LordRahl]

Interesting that you think this. I think DEALERS have a lot more to gain than collectors from a unified label system. As a collector I like being able to buy a slabbed PLOD X-Men #3 in 9.4 with top of cover trimmed for a few hundred dollars as opposed to a few thousand. I could not care less that 1/16 of an inch has been trimmed. I really don't see why COLLECTORS would want to get the system changed. Collectors are getting a good deal with PLOD books, now dealers or pseudo-dealers are a different story. So how does your theory that CGC only listens to dealers jibe with the fact that PLODs are hurting their business and not the average collector who does not sell books?

[Aman619]

okay..Lou, I finally figured out what youre getting at. I was unclear (by trying to use a few words as possible) and you went in the wrong direction based on what I had omitted in the interest of brevity...

 

When I said put them ALL in the same category, I meant ALL RESTORED books (no matter how slight the restoration was) should ALL get purple labels. I was not advocating making all books blue labels or no labels. CGC shouldnt be choosing arbitrarily or by giving preference to certain Pedigrees or dealers by placing ANY restored books in Blue label slabs. Put them ALL in PLODs and etc etc etc

 

Got it now? Maybe you can comment with a little less sarcasm now that you know what I meant.

[Illiterati-migration]

When I said put them ALL in the same category, I meant ALL RESTORED books (no matter how slight the restoration was) should ALL get purple labels. I was not advocating making all books blue labels or no labels. CGC shouldnt be choosing arbitrarily or by giving preference to certain Pedigrees or dealers by placing ANY restored books in Blue label slabs. Put them ALL in PLODs and etc etc etc

 

 

Amen to that, Aman!

[Mr. Zipper]

well, duhh, PLODS ARE second class citizens in the comics world. They always HAVE been too!

 

Tastes have changed, spurred by CGCs labelling system, and restored books of every stripe are totally out of favor right now. Its probably an overreaction.

 

Well, not really. Once upon a time, mid/lower grade books could have a tiny color touch or dot of glue, and it was considered no differently than an acceptable FLAW in that grade level ! With the PLOD, now the VG with a 1/4 inch tear seal is less desirable than the same book with the tear unsealed. Does that make any sense whatsoever?

 

Further, why are PLODs any more second class citizens than books with tape, popped staples, date stamps, writing, dust shadows, tanning, marvel chipping, and on and on? The answer: they are 2nd class citizens because CGC decided to give them a different color label. Case in point. If CGC had from the very beginning given restored books a blue label and simply noted resto on the label (like they did with other flaws), the market would be very different right now.

 

BTW, I completely agree with the 2nd part of your statement.