Pedigree Auction Sales and Relistings. Legit?

[kc120us]

Nick,

 

I agree it's not a transparent marketplace, but I don't agree that GPA data is useless and somehow not an accurate gauge. What is the best to determine prices? Overstreet? GPA? Data off of one of the auction sites? Guessing?

 

Brian,

I would say all of the above. We live in the age of information. Price information can be retrieved from dozens of sources. Yes, it is data in raw form but given a little time and effort a market value range can be seen.

[Pirate]

I just want to know if esquire is going to sue him and then split the proceeds among the board members who posted here.

[Unca Ben]

All independent dealer reportings to GPA are based on the honor system. So, it's automatically handicapped before even leaving the gate, but like fantastic_four said, it is all we've got.

And yet, so many here treat it as gospel truth.

A) "Do you promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?"

B) from Merriam-Webster: Main Entry: "lie" intransitive verb

1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive

2 : to create a false or misleading impression

[Foolkiller]

I hear and see a lot of frustration that is not directed at Doug alone but he is fast becoming the poster child for the entire situation.

 

I ended chasing ultra high grade slabs in favor of the nice eye appeal raw copies. Aside from Bob Storms, Dave Reynolds/Terry O'Neil, Ted VanLiew, Harley, occasionally Metro and Gary Platt, I don't really use national dealers that often. I try to use Bob Storms as much as possible -- but it's hard to get everything from one guy. I've been building mostly through comic book stores and have had a lot of success doing so.

 

The question is whether the masses really know enough about behavior and manipulation. When I've told store owners or customers that I run into who are buying vintage, they are generally shocked and appalled. I've also started rolling out a larger discussion on pressing -- some store owners are interested -- because it is a money maker, and others have said -- point blank, isn't that restoration? There seems to be universal agreement that shill bidding and manipulative practices are wrong.

 

I think there needs to be balance in how we approach exposing some of these issues. I think we need to be fair and not be part of a mob that makes assumptions and accusations without taking some care. On the other hand, I increasingly feel that doing nothing is certainly not the right thing. Throwing our hands up and saying we can't do anything to stop it is wrong too. Allowing the long held establishment to control the agenda is not right. If I wanted to become one of the huge players in 10 years, would I even want to in the current market? Unlikely. But I am interested in preserving as much integrity as we can.

 

As critical as I've been of NOD, one thing I think that could come out of an organization like that is an effort to educate people, not just on restoration, but also on things that are deceptive practices. What can be done? I think the only thing that can be done in reality is education, education, education. And if we really want to have an impact, the message as to get out on a mass scale. It's been discussed before, the question is getting it done.

 

I've been very passive the last few years -- but I think it's sad when the "leaders" of the hobby -- have no concern or care about the overall health of our hobby long term. They become so insular and selfish. I think there are people who are long standing "leaders" who stand for values and integrity -- and if we continue to allow the status quo -- then we'll simply get what we deserve.

 

 

[cheetah]

I think it is a sad statement that the most legitimate source of GPA data is eBay. None of the other auction houses can be trusted and eBay is the only one with an actual policy against shill bidding.

[qualitycomix]

I've been very passive the last few years -- but I think it's sad when the "leaders" of the hobby -- have no concern or care about the overall health of our hobby long term. They become so insular and selfish. I think there are people who are long standing "leaders" who stand for values and integrity -- and if we continue to allow the status quo -- then we'll simply get what we deserve.

 

 

Some leaders do care and speak up.

[MCMiles]

I think it is a sad statement that the most legitimate source of GPA data is eBay. None of the other auction houses can be trusted and eBay is the only one with an actual policy against shill bidding.

 

Correct. For as bad as ebay has been and can be, it really is the safest place to bid if the seller packs well and does deliver, which isn't hard to figure out.

 

Another thing, there is some speculation about auction houses being able to see max bids and "running up" bidders to their max. Many people seem to frequently win at their max bids on all of the auction house sights. That can't happen on ebay. A shill bidder their can only guess at what the bidders max may be. The shill also runs the risk of winning and creating a literal no sale with fees attached. Sniping on ebay also helps eliminate shill bidding on ebay.

 

As a matter of fact, if you go to the dealer market place, I think someone there is running some ebay auctions this week, and has made some good points about the advantages of bidding on ebay as opposed to other auction houses.

[COI]

Another fishy example is the Mound City Hulk #5 9.4. This fetched a hugh price at Mound City because many were probably looking for an upgrade. The book doesn't seem to be worth $15,000.00 in 9.4. I think Comiclink had a 9.6 copy of #4 that did not go for this much. Mysteriously, this book goes for just about the same price as it did in Mound City in the last Pedigree auction. Did it sell? if it did, did Doug jack it up to prevent a loss?

 

Have we even gotten into what happened with the Daredevil #1 9.4 from two auctions ago that a bidder who had a successful high bid was denied the book (he was told the book was damaged) ? All of a sudden right after that, another 9.6 copy shows up on the census, and mysteriously Doug is selling his personal copy.

 

Some questions to Doug:

 

1. Do you own the newest slabbed 9.6 copy?

 

2. If you do, is this the same copy that was denied to the high bidder and you made up a story saying the book was damaged?

 

3. Is a new 9.6 copy going to appear on your registry?

 

4. If you do have another 9.6 copy for your collection, are you willing to post a scan in your vault section for all to see? This way it can be compared with the 9.4 copy that was sold but was denied to the high bidder two auctions ago. From what I have heard a scan was saved of that 9.4.

 

 

More questions to Doug

 

1. Are you willing to post a scan of your FF #6 9.6 anywhere on your sight? Many have said that this copy originated from the Greg Manning auction and is the Fantazia Eastern Color Press File Copy with the married cover and trimmed interior that made its way into a blue label mistakenly years ago. One hint is that it has cream to off white pages. Another is that is still an old blue label book and Doug has never resubmitted this book to get the page quality potentially upgraded (why not?, he has seemingly done it with every other book in his collection - why would he let a cream to off-white page book stay in his collection?)

 

2. Are you willing to resubmit this book to CGC to have them look at it and make sure the above is not true, or are you fearful this book with garner a purple or green label and you will be out potential money?

 

3. Does it bother you that you are trying to pass this book off to the comic community on your registry as "unrestored" when you know this is not true?

 

 

[SuperBird]

Hi all --

 

just because the system is broken and greed is king doesn't mean apathy and cynicism should rule the day, either. I, for one, take great joy in comics and comic art, as many of us wish to do; however, I simultaneously take no satisfaction in the cesspool that the economics of the comic hobby has become. I can still love old comics and also denegrate greed, still appreciate with wonder others' collections and also despise lying and manipulation. They're separate entities in my eyes.

 

Dan

 

It is totally possible take great joy in comics and comic art, and NOT get caught up in the obsessive search for "perfect" copies of books at massively inflated prices. (thumbs u

[Flaming_Telepath]

I hear and see a lot of frustration that is not directed at Doug alone but he is fast becoming the poster child for the entire situation.

 

I ended chasing ultra high grade slabs in favor of the nice eye appeal raw copies. Aside from Bob Storms, Dave Reynolds/Terry O'Neil, Ted VanLiew, Harley, occasionally Metro and Gary Platt, I don't really use national dealers that often. I try to use Bob Storms as much as possible -- but it's hard to get everything from one guy. I've been building mostly through comic book stores and have had a lot of success doing so.

 

The question is whether the masses really know enough about behavior and manipulation. When I've told store owners or customers that I run into who are buying vintage, they are generally shocked and appalled. I've also started rolling out a larger discussion on pressing -- some store owners are interested -- because it is a money maker, and others have said -- point blank, isn't that restoration? There seems to be universal agreement that shill bidding and manipulative practices are wrong.

 

I think there needs to be balance in how we approach exposing some of these issues. I think we need to be fair and not be part of a mob that makes assumptions and accusations without taking some care. On the other hand, I increasingly feel that doing nothing is certainly not the right thing. Throwing our hands up and saying we can't do anything to stop it is wrong too. Allowing the long held establishment to control the agenda is not right. If I wanted to become one of the huge players in 10 years, would I even want to in the current market? Unlikely. But I am interested in preserving as much integrity as we can.

 

As critical as I've been of NOD, one thing I think that could come out of an organization like that is an effort to educate people, not just on restoration, but also on things that are deceptive practices. What can be done? I think the only thing that can be done in reality is education, education, education. And if we really want to have an impact, the message as to get out on a mass scale. It's been discussed before, the question is getting it done.

 

I've been very passive the last few years -- but I think it's sad when the "leaders" of the hobby -- have no concern or care about the overall health of our hobby long term. They become so insular and selfish. I think there are people who are long standing "leaders" who stand for values and integrity -- and if we continue to allow the status quo -- then we'll simply get what we deserve.

 

 

I'm giving this a huge :applause:

[drbanner]

I think it is a sad statement that the most legitimate source of GPA data is eBay. None of the other auction houses can be trusted and eBay is the only one with an actual policy against shill bidding.

Correct. For as bad as ebay has been and can be, it really is the safest place to bid if the seller packs well and does deliver, which isn't hard to figure out.

 

Another thing, there is some speculation about auction houses being able to see max bids and "running up" bidders to their max. Many people seem to frequently win at their max bids on all of the auction house sights. That can't happen on ebay. A shill bidder their can only guess at what the bidders max may be. The shill also runs the risk of winning and creating a literal no sale with fees attached. Sniping on ebay also helps eliminate shill bidding on ebay.

 

As a matter of fact, if you go to the dealer market place, I think someone there is running some ebay auctions this week, and has made some good points about the advantages of bidding on ebay as opposed to other auction houses.

 

Yep, I've picked up some sweet deals on ebay lately and historically, ebay has always been the best source of good deals if you find trustworthy sellers that know how to grade (and pack), and/or trustworthy sellers that don't know how to grade (such as antique dealers and estate sellers).

 

For more common books, I think GPA data from ebay is fine. Valuable, top-census and 5-figure+ books are more likely to be sold through Heritage/Clink/Pedigree anyway, so what you see is what you get there.

[ckp1680]

Correct. For as bad as ebay has been and can be, it really is the safest place to bid if the seller packs well and does deliver, which isn't hard to figure out.

 

Another thing, there is some speculation about auction houses being able to see max bids and "running up" bidders to their max. Many people seem to frequently win at their max bids on all of the auction house sights. That can't happen on ebay. A shill bidder their can only guess at what the bidders max may be. The shill also runs the risk of winning and creating a literal no sale with fees attached. Sniping on ebay also helps eliminate shill bidding on ebay.

 

As a matter of fact, if you go to the dealer market place, I think someone there is running some ebay auctions this week, and has made some good points about the advantages of bidding on ebay as opposed to other auction houses.

 

You made me look

 

 

[Foolkiller]

I've been very passive the last few years -- but I think it's sad when the "leaders" of the hobby -- have no concern or care about the overall health of our hobby long term. They become so insular and selfish. I think there are people who are long standing "leaders" who stand for values and integrity -- and if we continue to allow the status quo -- then we'll simply get what we deserve.

 

 

Some leaders do care and speak up.

 

I'm not suggesting that you don't, but frankly Brent, you're not at the same level as a lot of the long standing guys. I think it's great you are speaking out -- but it's the larger than life guys like Berk, Borock, Veryzl, Evans, Zurzolo etc. and have national recognition that you hope will speak out. I think a lot of people here know who you are, but I'm looking for some of the legends to speak out.

 

That being said, it's probably incumbent on all of us who care to try and make a change.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

I've been very passive the last few years -- but I think it's sad when the "leaders" of the hobby -- have no concern or care about the overall health of our hobby long term. They become so insular and selfish. I think there are people who are long standing "leaders" who stand for values and integrity -- and if we continue to allow the status quo -- then we'll simply get what we deserve.

 

 

Some leaders do care and speak up.

 

I'm not suggesting that you don't, but frankly Brent, you're not at the same level as a lot of the long standing guys. I think it's great you are speaking out -- but it's the larger than life guys like Berk, Borock, Veryzl, Evans, Zurzolo etc. and have national recognition that you hope will speak out. I think a lot of people here know who you are, but I'm looking for some of the legends to speak out.

 

That being said, it's probably incumbent on all of us who care to try and make a change.

 

Organize a one month Auction Abstinence during one of these periods when all the major auction players are holding their premiere auctions. If you can get 10-20% of the bidding pool to refrain from any active bidding, you may yet send a message.

 

The minority voice is only heard when pooled together with others.

 

Personally, I would love to see a set of accepted comic auction standards that touches on issues of shilling and price manipulation become enacted in the hobby and embraced by the various dealers who utilize an auction format. Perhaps the NOD Chairman can help organize a panel to adopt such standards and institute them in his own auctions. What say you Brent?

 

 

[t3quila]

Organize a one month Auction Abstinence during one of these periods when all the major auction players are holding their premiere auctions. If you can get 10-20% of the bidding pool to refrain from any active bidding, you may yet send a message.

 

Any chance you could hold that this month, there are a couple of books I'm after in the current auctions, and I wouldn't mind getting them cheap.

[Hedge Collector]

 

...Given that the individual concerned is a disbarred lawyer who was thrown out of his profession for embezzling his clients...

 

 

Did Doug Schmell ever come out with and explanation and apology for this?

 

Or did he keep quiet, accept his punishment, and move on?

[NewWorldOrder]

 

Organize a one month Auction Abstinence during one of these periods when all the major auction players are holding their premiere auctions. If you can get 10-20% of the bidding pool to refrain from any active bidding, you may yet send a message.

 

The minority voice is only heard when pooled together with others.

 

Personally, I would love to see a set of accepted comic auction standards that touches on issues of shilling and price manipulation become enacted in the hobby and embraced by the various dealers who utilize an auction format. Perhaps the NOD Chairman can help organize a panel to adopt such standards and institute them in his own auctions. What say you Brent?

 

 

I am assuming that will not be the month you are selling any of your books right?

[cheetah]

It'd work better if people refrained from submitting comics to the auction. Don't punish the people selling.

[NewWorldOrder]

It'd work better if people refrained from submitting comics to the auction. Don't punish the people selling.

 

yup.

[Flaming_Telepath]

Actually, we can guffaw all we like, but George has a very good idea.

 

Why can't we arrange a boycott of an auction, both consigning and buying? A lot of the heavy-hitters are here and a decent take-up would certainly send a message that, as consumers, we're not prepared to take this scamming any longer?

 

I personally have not bought a book from Pedigree, Heritage, Matt Nelson, CLink or Lauterbach for over four years now, simply because I disagree with their 'business model' (a phrase which gives it more validity than it's due, IMHO).

 

Why can't people hold off for one single month, for the overall benefit of the hobby as a whole?