Pedigree Auction Sales and Relistings. Legit?

[DR.FRANKENSTEIN-migration]

Actually, we can guffaw all we like, but George has a very good idea.

 

Why can't we arrange a boycott of an auction, both consigning and buying? A lot of the heavy-hitters are here and a decent take-up would certainly send a message that, as consumers, we're not prepared to take this scamming any longer?

 

I personally have not bought a book from Pedigree, Heritage, Matt Nelson, CLink or Lauterbach for over four years now, simply because I disagree with their 'business model' (a phrase which gives it more validity than it's due, IMHO).

 

Why can't people hold off for one single month, for the overall benefit of the hobby as a whole?

You guys can organize and accomplish anything if you set your mind to it.

But I think you all are going way out on a limb.

 

Doug is a knucklehead. He is probably doing some shady stuff with his auctions. At the least it has come out that he is selectively reporting sales to GPA. So because of that you all want to boycott the entire auction system and every auction house that deals in comics!

Hell, why don't you just burn your own homes down like they did in Watts.

It is really pretty simple -

If you don't like the way Doug has conducted his business don't buy from him. And tell people why.

 

If you don't like Heritage don't buy from them. And tell people why.

 

If you don't like ComicLink don't buy from them. And tell people why.

 

I don't like Metro so I don't buy from them. And I tell people why.

 

And if you don't like comics anymore don't buy them. And tell all of us why.

 

The discussion makes the difference.

And the discussions here are pretty darn entertaining.

The overreaction is downright hilarious!

 

Amen to that Rich.....your comments here are very much on target in my opinion.

To add a point here, when large quanities of valuable books come to market for sale there will always be a forum for these books in the design of an auction. This forum for selling doesn't require a long term committment on the sellers part to liquidate their comics into cash as oppossed to a book by book sales approach.

Like it or not auctions also bring in my opinion some sanity and balancing of prices in the market at that particular time. Steve Borock mentioned that auctions are "here to stay", in my opinion he is right. So why not give your patronage to companies that you are most comfortable with, or individuals say for example like Steve that will definetly take care of you no matter what ?All companies have dramaticly changed over the last 30 years, "companies" are only as good as the individual you are working with in my opinion.If a person isn't comfortable, or doesn't trust any of the auction houses they can sell them themselves, or consign them to a reputable dealer. I think wide spread "maybe's" about all auction houses is a bad idea because it isn't fair to the one or two outfits that are ligit.I think it also has the potential to damage the hobby in terms of its long term growth potential. I have been happy with Josh at Comiclink, and I am happy to report that I have never had an integrity related issue with them . I agree with alot of things said here regarding the lack of integrity with some of the auction houses discussed here as I have seen them in action over the last 20 years. It appears to me that some of their actions are finially catching up to them......and some of them are finially going to start getting what they have earned, Amen to that as well

[qualitycomix]

I too, have never had a integrity related issue with Comiclink or Heritage or Comic Connect for that matter. Don't know their business practices, but have never had a problem.

[drbanner]

Well, let's be real here - Clink and Heritage are the top dogs as far as auctions and each have their "issues". I don't know what % of Pedigree's "Grand Auction" listings are simply Doug's own books, but based on this thread, it looks like that % is higher than thought.

[MrBedrock]

What specifically am I wrong about?

Your wrong in the assumption that retail will die.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

I will always vote with my wallet, but I'm suggesting we can also tell the various auction houses what they can do (assuming they aren't doing it already) to keep us as customers going forward.

I vote with my wallet when I buy stuff.

But in the case of trying to resolve an issue of customer service, policy or some other problem I just think a phone call is preferable to rounding up a posse.

 

Oh c'mon Richard, the lynchmob comparisons are a little over-the-top, don't you think?

 

And since when is blatant insider shilling, like that exposed in this thread, just a customer service issue?

 

 

[qualitycomix]

What specifically am I wrong about?

Your wrong in the assumption that retail will die.

 

I'll clarify. Online retail sales are dying a slow death. In person sales are a different story entirely.

[jkrk]

The reason people like auctions because it's like gambling. It's the opportunity to buy a book at a significant discount to retail either for resale or just to get a great deal. It's also the "thrill" of bidding on that hard to find book and then hopefully winning it.

 

Some of the auction prices achieved would have NEVER happened in a fixed price environment. On BOTH sides, high and low.

 

If I ask $35,000 for a Cap #117 CGC 9.8, will it sell? Probably not. But put it into an auction, and those same guys who were looking at the book, suddenly bid it up to near that number. That's human psychology at work and that's why auctions aren't going anywhere. We WANT auctions. We also want auctions where the game is not rigged against buyers/bidders and I think assurances should be made on the part of the auction houses that shady stuff is not going on.

 

Cap 117 for $35,000?

 

Great price. (thumbs u

[jkrk]

I've been very passive the last few years -- but I think it's sad when the "leaders" of the hobby -- have no concern or care about the overall health of our hobby long term. They become so insular and selfish. I think there are people who are long standing "leaders" who stand for values and integrity -- and if we continue to allow the status quo -- then we'll simply get what we deserve.

 

 

Some leaders do care and speak up.

 

I'm not suggesting that you don't, but frankly Brent, you're not at the same level as a lot of the long standing guys. I think it's great you are speaking out -- but it's the larger than life guys like Berk, Borock, Veryzl, Evans, Zurzolo etc. and have national recognition that you hope will speak out. I think a lot of people here know who you are, but I'm looking for some of the legends to speak out.

 

That being said, it's probably incumbent on all of us who care to try and make a change.

 

Brian-

 

What would you like me to do?

 

I work with Heritage and treat all my consigners & bidders very well. I have not seen any SHILL bidding at HA and HA all reports high and low sales. HA leaves up archives. You might not agree with everything HA does, but, you know me pretty well, and, I hope, you know that I do the best for everyone, even people who are not clients. This is my hobby and community.

 

I work with Heritage because it's as open as an auction house can be without giving the names of the bidders and consigners. Auctions have always been protective of their clients, they are also, here to stay.

 

BTW, before I go on, just to address this single other issue.... before I worked at HA, I won some art way under my max bid and lost many way above my max bid. I am sure that there are many here on the boards that can tell you the same.

 

I am not going to go around on the internet and make usumptions about what people are doing within their business, when I do not know all the inner workings. What can I do about Doug's, Josh's, Vinnie/Steve's, Brent's business (auctions) when I don't know what's going on. Do you just want me to assume? Everthing, until there is proof, is hearsay. You know that.

 

I think I speak up plenty, when I have [font:Arial Black]facts[/font]. In the JE thread, I asked for proof, [font:Arial Black]no one[/font] would give it to me. Many said it's there, but can't show me. If you were my lawyer, what would you tell me to do? I can only work with what I have. I have spoken out against crooks that I have proof of and have saved many collectors thousands and thousands of dollars doing so.

 

I have been talking with many about resto/grading classes so collectors can buy raw from the "good" sellers. This is about my hobby, not my biz.

 

I also believe that George does a great job with GPA. I also believe that he should make it mandatory that, if you give him sales data, it should be 100% of your sales, if he were to find out they do not, they should not be allowed to give price data. I believe this is what George asks and that's why it would suck for people to leave off any sales if they are GPA partners.

 

So, once again, I ask you, what else can I do?

 

Call me naive but....Any auction house that leaves up it's archives and is well funded probably is relatively legit. Many of the scandals that arose over the past number of years

were discovered due to the comic archives being available. It's hard to believe that Heritage would risk it's reputation in the coin business to knowingly get involved in scandals in the comic division. The comic biz is a pimple on the elephant.

[MrBedrock]

I will always vote with my wallet, but I'm suggesting we can also tell the various auction houses what they can do (assuming they aren't doing it already) to keep us as customers going forward.

I vote with my wallet when I buy stuff.

But in the case of trying to resolve an issue of customer service, policy or some other problem I just think a phone call is preferable to rounding up a posse.

 

Oh c'mon Richard, the lynchmob comparisons are a little over-the-top, don't you think?

 

And since when is blatant insider shilling, like that exposed in this thread, just a customer service issue?

 

How can it be anything other than a customer service issue? If you presently shop with Doug then these recent revelations will affect your trust in his services.

 

If you don't presently shop with Doug yet are using this forum to propose your method of retribution (a hobbywide boycott) then that is comparable to inciting a lynchmob. Especially if you personally haven't spoken with Doug and tried to hash it out yourself.

[MrBedrock]

I'll clarify.

Nope...too late...not acceptable.

[jkrk]

As Richard said, some of you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. George (Jive) brings up issues of poor customer service, lack of good results and a generally non-caring attitude.

 

Auction companies provide a service. Some only have the almighty dollar in their heads and don't care if 10 copies of a big key in the same grade are in the same auction even if that bastardizes the prices acheived on that book. Not all auction houses are created equal and not all auction houses treat their customers the same.

 

It's nice to expand on Pedigree's shady dealings and say let's boycott auctions, or let's boycott consigning, or let's form our own auction house, but I think that the reaction is misplaced. Pedigree Comics should be the target of your boycotts, not Comiclink or Heritage or Comic Connect or us for that matter. If any of those other companies have also done these same things, then maybe those auction houses should be boycotted.

 

Somehow Auction houses have become a dirty word. And I'm not sure why. Quality Comix charges 7% for any CGC certified book. That is lower than any other legitimate auction house. We spend a great deal of money on advertising and building the Quality Comix brand. We have a professional shipping department. We have generally responsive customer service. We have a professional looking, easy to use website that we are constantly updating. All of these things cost money. We also disclose any work that has been done to a comic that we sell and we request our consignors do the same.

I believe that there are quite a few auction web sites that boardies are currently using that you guys could take over and make big, if that is your choice. And I think they don't charge much.

 

You will run into problems when you have an auction and the book is not "in house". Someone wins the book for less than what they want and the book is never shipped out or "sold" somewhere else. Shilling will take place. Friends will buy books back for their friends. Non-disclosure will happen and so on. Auction Nirvana won't happen with your own auctions either, but maybe it will be a better venture than what is currently in the marketplace.

 

Anyone else notice how Brent worked in a nice little Quality Comics advertising there. I think you have been spending too much time with Zaid.

 

Since all auction houses were being disparaged and they were discussing boycotting them for various reasons, I felt it necessary to describe what we have done to address these issues ALREADY.

 

Maybe Zaid has some pointers for me?

 

So.. The fire you started is coming too close to your house?

[qualitycomix]

As Richard said, some of you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. George (Jive) brings up issues of poor customer service, lack of good results and a generally non-caring attitude.

 

Auction companies provide a service. Some only have the almighty dollar in their heads and don't care if 10 copies of a big key in the same grade are in the same auction even if that bastardizes the prices acheived on that book. Not all auction houses are created equal and not all auction houses treat their customers the same.

 

It's nice to expand on Pedigree's shady dealings and say let's boycott auctions, or let's boycott consigning, or let's form our own auction house, but I think that the reaction is misplaced. Pedigree Comics should be the target of your boycotts, not Comiclink or Heritage or Comic Connect or us for that matter. If any of those other companies have also done these same things, then maybe those auction houses should be boycotted.

 

Somehow Auction houses have become a dirty word. And I'm not sure why. Quality Comix charges 7% for any CGC certified book. That is lower than any other legitimate auction house. We spend a great deal of money on advertising and building the Quality Comix brand. We have a professional shipping department. We have generally responsive customer service. We have a professional looking, easy to use website that we are constantly updating. All of these things cost money. We also disclose any work that has been done to a comic that we sell and we request our consignors do the same.

I believe that there are quite a few auction web sites that boardies are currently using that you guys could take over and make big, if that is your choice. And I think they don't charge much.

 

You will run into problems when you have an auction and the book is not "in house". Someone wins the book for less than what they want and the book is never shipped out or "sold" somewhere else. Shilling will take place. Friends will buy books back for their friends. Non-disclosure will happen and so on. Auction Nirvana won't happen with your own auctions either, but maybe it will be a better venture than what is currently in the marketplace.

 

Anyone else notice how Brent worked in a nice little Quality Comics advertising there. I think you have been spending too much time with Zaid.

 

Since all auction houses were being disparaged and they were discussing boycotting them for various reasons, I felt it necessary to describe what we have done to address these issues ALREADY.

 

Maybe Zaid has some pointers for me?

 

So.. The fire you started is coming too close to your house?

 

Ouch. that burns...

[qualitycomix]

I'll clarify.

Nope...too late...not acceptable.

 

[jkrk]

As Richard said, some of you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. George (Jive) brings up issues of poor customer service, lack of good results and a generally non-caring attitude.

 

Auction companies provide a service. Some only have the almighty dollar in their heads and don't care if 10 copies of a big key in the same grade are in the same auction even if that bastardizes the prices acheived on that book. Not all auction houses are created equal and not all auction houses treat their customers the same.

 

It's nice to expand on Pedigree's shady dealings and say let's boycott auctions, or let's boycott consigning, or let's form our own auction house, but I think that the reaction is misplaced. Pedigree Comics should be the target of your boycotts, not Comiclink or Heritage or Comic Connect or us for that matter. If any of those other companies have also done these same things, then maybe those auction houses should be boycotted.

 

Somehow Auction houses have become a dirty word. And I'm not sure why. Quality Comix charges 7% for any CGC certified book. That is lower than any other legitimate auction house. We spend a great deal of money on advertising and building the Quality Comix brand. We have a professional shipping department. We have generally responsive customer service. We have a professional looking, easy to use website that we are constantly updating. All of these things cost money. We also disclose any work that has been done to a comic that we sell and we request our consignors do the same.

I believe that there are quite a few auction web sites that boardies are currently using that you guys could take over and make big, if that is your choice. And I think they don't charge much.

 

You will run into problems when you have an auction and the book is not "in house". Someone wins the book for less than what they want and the book is never shipped out or "sold" somewhere else. Shilling will take place. Friends will buy books back for their friends. Non-disclosure will happen and so on. Auction Nirvana won't happen with your own auctions either, but maybe it will be a better venture than what is currently in the marketplace.

 

Anyone else notice how Brent worked in a nice little Quality Comics advertising there. I think you have been spending too much time with Zaid.

 

Since all auction houses were being disparaged and they were discussing boycotting them for various reasons, I felt it necessary to describe what we have done to address these issues ALREADY.

 

Maybe Zaid has some pointers for me?

 

So.. The fire you started is coming too close to your house?

 

Ouch. that burns...

 

After reading this thread.... I am left thinking that you should Send me a PM when you next hold an auction.

 

Consignments will be coming your way.

 

Jay

[Old Fashion PB and J]

This thread is both good, and sux at the same time. Hearing anything about Schmell and then surprise or astonishment from anyone is just ridiculous. With the history of his, which is not hard to find. Is just ridiculous. There are reasons why I buy from so few people, and why I use very, very few auction sites (read one).

 

And after that we demand, plead, ask, whatever that these auction sites start using any code of ethics whatsoever is just as laughable. People cant even agree to disclose known work to a book because they may lose sales, auction sites dont like seeing the word press in an auction listing. And we are going to ask them to be honest, and not allow shill bidding? Good luck.. My guess is they wont and never will care. You,me, buyer or consignor are a paycheck. That is all. There is no face except whatever dead guy is on the bills they collect. So complain all you want about whatever you want, I will still read (it's like a bad car accident). But realize that it is just business, to us collectors a hobby but a business to the other parties.

 

Sorry to pizz in everyones cornflakes, but asking for a shred of decency from a bunch of guys who dont give a F### about you one way or the other (as long a you are paying) is ridiculous.

[qualitycomix]

As Richard said, some of you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. George (Jive) brings up issues of poor customer service, lack of good results and a generally non-caring attitude.

 

Auction companies provide a service. Some only have the almighty dollar in their heads and don't care if 10 copies of a big key in the same grade are in the same auction even if that bastardizes the prices acheived on that book. Not all auction houses are created equal and not all auction houses treat their customers the same.

 

It's nice to expand on Pedigree's shady dealings and say let's boycott auctions, or let's boycott consigning, or let's form our own auction house, but I think that the reaction is misplaced. Pedigree Comics should be the target of your boycotts, not Comiclink or Heritage or Comic Connect or us for that matter. If any of those other companies have also done these same things, then maybe those auction houses should be boycotted.

 

Somehow Auction houses have become a dirty word. And I'm not sure why. Quality Comix charges 7% for any CGC certified book. That is lower than any other legitimate auction house. We spend a great deal of money on advertising and building the Quality Comix brand. We have a professional shipping department. We have generally responsive customer service. We have a professional looking, easy to use website that we are constantly updating. All of these things cost money. We also disclose any work that has been done to a comic that we sell and we request our consignors do the same.

I believe that there are quite a few auction web sites that boardies are currently using that you guys could take over and make big, if that is your choice. And I think they don't charge much.

 

You will run into problems when you have an auction and the book is not "in house". Someone wins the book for less than what they want and the book is never shipped out or "sold" somewhere else. Shilling will take place. Friends will buy books back for their friends. Non-disclosure will happen and so on. Auction Nirvana won't happen with your own auctions either, but maybe it will be a better venture than what is currently in the marketplace.

 

Anyone else notice how Brent worked in a nice little Quality Comics advertising there. I think you have been spending too much time with Zaid.

 

Since all auction houses were being disparaged and they were discussing boycotting them for various reasons, I felt it necessary to describe what we have done to address these issues ALREADY.

 

Maybe Zaid has some pointers for me?

 

So.. The fire you started is coming too close to your house?

 

Ouch. that burns...

 

After reading this thread.... I am left thinking that you should Send me a PM when you next hold an auction.

 

Consignments will be coming your way.

 

Jay

 

I will definitely do that

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

This thread is both good, and sux at the same time. Hearing anything about Schmell and then surprise or astonishment from anyone is just ridiculous. With the history of his, which is not hard to find. Is just ridiculous. There are reasons why I buy from so few people, and why I use very, very few auction sites (read one).

 

And after that we demand, plead, ask, whatever that these auction sites start using any code of ethics whatsoever is just as laughable. People cant even agree to disclose known work to a book because they may lose sales, auction sites dont like seeing the word press in an auction listing. And we are going to ask them to be honest, and not allow shill bidding? Good luck.. My guess is they wont and never will care. You,me, buyer or consignor are a paycheck. That is all. There is no face except whatever dead guy is on the bills they collect. So complain all you want about whatever you want, I will still read (it's like a bad car accident). But realize that it is just business, to us collectors a hobby but a business to the other parties.

 

Sorry to pizz in everyones cornflakes, but asking for a shred of decency from a bunch of guys who dont give a F### about you one way or the other (as long a you are paying) is ridiculous.

 

Geez, I thought you NOD guys were supposed to be more idealistic then that.

[Flaming_Telepath]

I will always vote with my wallet, but I'm suggesting we can also tell the various auction houses what they can do (assuming they aren't doing it already) to keep us as customers going forward.

I vote with my wallet when I buy stuff.

But in the case of trying to resolve an issue of customer service, policy or some other problem I just think a phone call is preferable to rounding up a posse.

 

Oh c'mon Richard, the lynchmob comparisons are a little over-the-top, don't you think?

 

And since when is blatant insider shilling, like that exposed in this thread, just a customer service issue?

 

 

When it's being minimised.

[Flaming_Telepath]

I will always vote with my wallet, but I'm suggesting we can also tell the various auction houses what they can do (assuming they aren't doing it already) to keep us as customers going forward.

I vote with my wallet when I buy stuff.

But in the case of trying to resolve an issue of customer service, policy or some other problem I just think a phone call is preferable to rounding up a posse.

 

Oh c'mon Richard, the lynchmob comparisons are a little over-the-top, don't you think?

 

And since when is blatant insider shilling, like that exposed in this thread, just a customer service issue?

 

How can it be anything other than a customer service issue? If you presently shop with Doug then these recent revelations will affect your trust in his services.

 

If you don't presently shop with Doug yet are using this forum to propose your method of retribution (a hobbywide boycott) then that is comparable to inciting a lynchmob. Especially if you personally haven't spoken with Doug and tried to hash it out yourself.

 

Hash what out, precisely?

 

Doug has admitted here that he omits to report poor sales points to GPA, contrary to his agreement with GPA, and in an effort to maintain the 'value' of certain items.

 

Price fixing...market manipulation...unethical conduct...call it what you will, but I'm clearly missing what there is to 'hash out'?

 

Additionally, why would a public concern issue on this scale be best dealt with through a one-to-one phonecall?

[Paratrooper]

I'm really tired of seeing the same really expensive books run thru his auctions at no reserve and the the ones that sell below GPA end up on his site the next day.

I can certainly relate. I'm tired of a lot of things. I don't care about pressing. I don't care about disclosure. I don't care about market manipulation. Does that make me a bad collector? A bad hobbyist? I don't know. I guess ultimately it does.

 

Is it giving up or giving in? No, I think it's more of a giving out. And frankly, I guess it's time I take to heart the advice you gave Dale earlier in the thread. If I really don't care about it, then I need to just stop posting.

 

Not the answer, Jim.

 

The problem, as I see it, is that whilst you don't care...a position you're clearly entitled to take on any of those issues...you're quick enough to denigrate those who do. You've saved your vitriol in this thread for Brent, not Doug. Doug got a shrug of the shoulders from you, but you've pretty much sneered at Brent and called him out.

 

If you don't care, don't care...but please don't look down on those who do.

The only people I routinely look down on are those who want to have their cake and eat it too. People with true opinions, whether I think they are right or wrong, catch very little flack from me. I don't care what you stand for, as long as you are consistent. The one thing I try not to be is pious. I don't hold anyone to higher standard than what I expect from myself. Perhaps I need to raise the bar.

I like you, Jim...so I'm not saying this to bash you...but I want to explain my point of view.

 

A friend told me yesterday, when I showed him the thread, that "ignorance is bliss". I know that he didn't mean that in a bad way, but I think he was disgusted.

 

I know that there has been a lot of posts saying "Ho Hum" so someone is doing something less than up front? so what?

 

THAT really bothers me...I suppose I'm a perfect example of someone who learns from these threads.

 

I have only been collecting for about 12 years, before that I was merely accumulating some books. I don't have $10k books, but I have more books than I usually admit. It adds up.

 

When I came to this forum, I had NEVER heard of pressing. I knew very little about restoration.

 

I did and do buy Overstreet. Never used it as a bible, but it was always a good reference tool for me for books I was not familiar with.

 

When I got here,I knew enough that mid grade DCs and Marvels did not go for guide, and Timelys did...but that's about it. I bought most of my books on Ebay. Never heard of GPA when I got here. Still don't really use it myself because only 20 percent or so of my collection is CGC'd and I usually prefer books I can look at.

 

What I also did not know when I got here, is that there were books I had in my collection that went way OVER Overstreet guide, so when I came here, and a few people "needed" some books that I had, I did sell a few at my cost, only to see them flipped immediately.

 

 

I still have the ones you sold me! And they'll stay with me for awhile yet, so if you have anymore...