Best way to buy a big book like Batman 1?

[G.A.tor]

 

I missed nothing. I simply disagree. And over the course of years of watching, buying, selling, Batman 1s and other similar books, your scenario is inaccurate. Things don't happen in a vacuum the way you think they do. You play mostly at the high end of the market, so certainly your perception would be skewed. I get that.

What I don't you get is you can't look at a six month window in comics or even a year for that matter and declare a trend. That is goofy.

 

GA key comics have climbed in value each time record sales happen, in my experience it has happened in all grades. Restored and unrestored. Heck Gator, you know good and damn well how I lost my butt on books that I sold after the rising tide phenomon and left plenty on the table by selling them just before the rising tide. And they were mid grade restored for the most part.

 

Don't take an excerpt from the long documented history of performance of these books and make a declaration that your view is THE view. The facts simply don't support it.

 

Absent a big sale of a high grade MF 52 and AA 16 look how those have lagged. Looks like they need a boost.

 

Maybe you can get Jon to sell the MH 16 and help the case of all those holding mid graders.....

 

you are still missing my point... I am specifically talking about just now... just this little window..not stating it is a trend, etc, just reporting what is happening "now"... how just because a book is hitting a million, it is not causing the books around it that are mid grade restored to "rise" right now... in fact, they are falling (in relationships to the increasing prices paid "now" on unrestored copies)...

 

again, you know I understand the "longer term" affect... but that is not my point...

 

my point is that these million dollar sales have not caused any immediate increase in price point or real world sales of any mid grade restored "keys"...

 

that's all

 

And that is why you are as wrong as wrong can be. It's the Florida - Nebraska game all over again.

 

Neve mind the fact that it has been true for 29 out of the last 30 years right? Because you say no, during the worst economic time since the great depression, it isn't true, then your case is proved, right?

 

And a holding call, or whatever, was the reason your team lost by about 40 points. Yeah, I see your point now buddy

 

(thumbs u

now, on that point (the holding call) that is my story and I am sticking with it (and it was only 38 points )

 

but, seriously, what does 29 out of 30 years have to do with my current observation and current sales that 100% support my statement/observation (would anyone like me to cite all the examples of mid grade restored keys that are selling down to WAY down from previous sales prices, even admist this "explosion" in unrestored key sales...I believe I have 6 restored superman 1 sales that are at much lower prices, several tec 27's that have sat unsold during this time period, batman 1's that have either sold lower than in recent years or sit unsold at current asking prices, several action 1's restored that the prices have jumped tremendously-2-3x original purchase price, but that still aren't getting "pre record" sales offers etc, etc)...

 

and actually, I can site several years , consecutive years actually, of market down swings (like 2003-4, where unrestored tec 27's and action 1's were selling at double digit drops from previous years sales, etc)... that is all cyclical...prices rise and fall, establish a new plateau, then rise and fall again, relative to a myriad of reasons (economic, media hype, supply and demand swings, etc) you are not making any sense?

 

the worse economic time since the great depression hasn't stopped folks from ponying up 300K for a 3.0 action 1, 1mil for a 8.0 action 1, 1.5 mil for a 8.5 action 1, 1 mil for a 8.0 tec 27, 575K for a 6.0 tec 27, 400K for 9.6 Flash 1, over 300K offers on 4.0 tec 27's etc, etc? in fact, it further supports my analysis...

 

if this "golden age" of record comic prices were acting in the rising tide theory across all books, we shouldn't have to wait a year(s) or even months and months to see the effect...they should be rising NOW...and unrestored copies are...restored mid grade are NOT (that is 100% fact)... not saying they won't eventually increase in price, that is the nature of the business... i am saying that they are NOT increasing in price at the same time that the unrestored copies are exponentially increasing in price... please tell me how I am "wrong"

 

shouldn't this 300K bid on the Batman 1, if I am "wrong as wrong" mean that all these mid grade restored batman 1's are now worth 20% more, and so folks should be popping them like crazy at current prices?...yet, for months and months now, sales are stagnant on them, and when they do sell (like the restored superman 1's), they are selling for LESS than they have at almost any point in the last 5 years...

so,while I won't ever say I am 100% RIGHT, please someone give me some evidence to the contrary (thumbs u

[Bruce1971]

 

I think we all have to realize there are a lot of big books going into collections where the collectors can't comfortably afford them. How many times do we see guys on these boards selling some nice books to pay for an emergency. These generally are not the guys buying the HG Action, Detective 27, Batman 1, Superman 1's. These guys are buying the low to mid grade restored copies because thats all they can afford, even then often it really taps some of these guys out. So its very reasonable that there is a big disconnect in how the market is behaving today compared to how it has trended over the last 25 years. The last bad economic times we have had in North America were in the 80's and comics were peanuts then.

 

I think Gator is right, at least for the next 6 months to year. The bad economy is not going to go away with the poor job creation numbers and this will continue to have an negative impact on these books. Almost forgot, I think the fact they are both common mega keys decreases the need for people to grab their copies during these bad times. If they were rarely offered for sale I think we would see a positive correlation between the price increases for all grades restored and unrestored.

 

 

Bruce

[G.A.tor]

I think we all have to realize there are a lot of big books going into collections where the collectors can't comfortably afford them. How many times do we see guys on these boards selling some nice books to pay for an emergency. These generally are not the guys buying the HG Action, Detective 27, Batman 1, Superman 1's. These guys are buying the low to mid grade restored copies because thats all they can afford, even then often it really taps some of these guys out. So its very reasonable that there is a big disconnect in how the market is behaving today compared to how it has trended over the last 25 years. The last bad economic times we have had in North America were in the 80's and comics were peanuts then.

 

I think Gator is right, at least for the next 6 months to year. The bad economy is not going to go away with the poor job creation numbers and this will continue to have an negative impact on these books. Almost forgot, I think the fact they are both common mega keys decreases the need for people to grab their copies during these bad times. If they were rarely offered for sale I think we would see a positive correlation between the price increases for all grades restored and unrestored.

 

 

Bruce

you said it so much better than I

[VintageComics]

I think we all have to realize there are a lot of big books going into collections where the collectors can't comfortably afford them. How many times do we see guys on these boards selling some nice books to pay for an emergency. These generally are not the guys buying the HG Action, Detective 27, Batman 1, Superman 1's. These guys are buying the low to mid grade restored copies because thats all they can afford, even then often it really taps some of these guys out. So its very reasonable that there is a big disconnect in how the market is behaving today compared to how it has trended over the last 25 years. The last bad economic times we have had in North America were in the 80's and comics were peanuts then.

 

I think Gator is right, at least for the next 6 months to year. The bad economy is not going to go away with the poor job creation numbers and this will continue to have an negative impact on these books. Almost forgot, I think the fact they are both common mega keys decreases the need for people to grab their copies during these bad times. If they were rarely offered for sale I think we would see a positive correlation between the price increases for all grades restored and unrestored.

 

 

Bruce

you said it so much better than I

 

[seank]

Update: I've been offered a Batman 1 with extensive professional restoration that is purportedly a 5.0 in a price range I believe I can live with. The seller will meet face to face and has sent me a gazillion photos. These indicate to me he's on the up and up. He's a short flight away. I'm considering a weekend trip to look at and possibly buy an expensive funny book.

 

Take pics! Can't wait to live vicariously through you!

 

Stop derailing this thread by talking about the purchase of a Batman #1. There is a perfectly good pizzing match going on!

 

[seank]

Update: I've been offered a Batman 1 with extensive professional restoration that is purportedly a 5.0 in a price range I believe I can live with. The seller will meet face to face and has sent me a gazillion photos. These indicate to me he's on the up and up. He's a short flight away. I'm considering a weekend trip to look at and possibly buy an expensive funny book.

 

I really hope everything works out well for you. Batman #1 is a very special book and despite it being one of the undisputed top GA keys of all-time, I still feel it to be a bit underrated. The fact that it is Joker's first appearence alone would make it one of the greatest funny books in history and as I'm sure you are well aware, there is just so much more.

 

EP Restoration might very well be the way to go. I believe I would do the same if the money were available to me. This way you get a sharp looking copy at a fraction of the price.

 

Any aspirations to send it out for grading when or if you make the purchase?

 

Chances are I won't have the book slabbed if I buy a raw copy. I'm a collector and tend to purchase books for the long-term. I'm also a life-long Batman fan. If I buy this grail, I'll likely push for the rest of the run. I'd need 128 more Batmans to complete it. (Unfortunately, pretty much 2-129.)

[Scrooge]

I think we all have to realize there are a lot of big books going into collections where the collectors can't comfortably afford them. How many times do we see guys on these boards selling some nice books to pay for an emergency. These generally are not the guys buying the HG Action, Detective 27, Batman 1, Superman 1's. These guys are buying the low to mid grade restored copies because thats all they can afford, even then often it really taps some of these guys out. So its very reasonable that there is a big disconnect in how the market is behaving today compared to how it has trended over the last 25 years. The last bad economic times we have had in North America were in the 80's and comics were peanuts then.

 

I think Gator is right, at least for the next 6 months to year. The bad economy is not going to go away with the poor job creation numbers and this will continue to have an negative impact on these books. Almost forgot, I think the fact they are both common mega keys decreases the need for people to grab their copies during these bad times. If they were rarely offered for sale I think we would see a positive correlation between the price increases for all grades restored and unrestored.

 

 

Bruce

you said it so much better than I

 

He probably got his degree elsewhere than the U. of Florida

 

I do think though that Bruce is overstating the "people buying these can barely afford them" theory / syndrom.

[G.A.tor]

I think we all have to realize there are a lot of big books going into collections where the collectors can't comfortably afford them. How many times do we see guys on these boards selling some nice books to pay for an emergency. These generally are not the guys buying the HG Action, Detective 27, Batman 1, Superman 1's. These guys are buying the low to mid grade restored copies because thats all they can afford, even then often it really taps some of these guys out. So its very reasonable that there is a big disconnect in how the market is behaving today compared to how it has trended over the last 25 years. The last bad economic times we have had in North America were in the 80's and comics were peanuts then.

 

I think Gator is right, at least for the next 6 months to year. The bad economy is not going to go away with the poor job creation numbers and this will continue to have an negative impact on these books. Almost forgot, I think the fact they are both common mega keys decreases the need for people to grab their copies during these bad times. If they were rarely offered for sale I think we would see a positive correlation between the price increases for all grades restored and unrestored.

 

 

Bruce

you said it so much better than I

 

He probably got his degree elsewhere than the U. of Florida

 

I do think though that Bruce is overstating the "people buying these can barely afford them" theory / syndrom.

stop nitpicking

[Scrooge]

I think we all have to realize there are a lot of big books going into collections where the collectors can't comfortably afford them. How many times do we see guys on these boards selling some nice books to pay for an emergency. These generally are not the guys buying the HG Action, Detective 27, Batman 1, Superman 1's. These guys are buying the low to mid grade restored copies because thats all they can afford, even then often it really taps some of these guys out. So its very reasonable that there is a big disconnect in how the market is behaving today compared to how it has trended over the last 25 years. The last bad economic times we have had in North America were in the 80's and comics were peanuts then.

 

I think Gator is right, at least for the next 6 months to year. The bad economy is not going to go away with the poor job creation numbers and this will continue to have an negative impact on these books. Almost forgot, I think the fact they are both common mega keys decreases the need for people to grab their copies during these bad times. If they were rarely offered for sale I think we would see a positive correlation between the price increases for all grades restored and unrestored.

 

 

Bruce

you said it so much better than I

 

He probably got his degree elsewhere than the U. of Florida

 

I do think though that Bruce is overstating the "people buying these can barely afford them" theory / syndrom.

stop nitpicking

Oh, I loved the post, esp. the part where he talked about correlation

[bluechip]

 

I missed nothing. I simply disagree. And over the course of years of watching, buying, selling, Batman 1s and other similar books, your scenario is inaccurate. Things don't happen in a vacuum the way you think they do. You play mostly at the high end of the market, so certainly your perception would be skewed. I get that.

What I don't you get is you can't look at a six month window in comics or even a year for that matter and declare a trend. That is goofy.

 

GA key comics have climbed in value each time record sales happen, in my experience it has happened in all grades. Restored and unrestored. Heck Gator, you know good and damn well how I lost my butt on books that I sold after the rising tide phenomon and left plenty on the table by selling them just before the rising tide. And they were mid grade restored for the most part.

 

Don't take an excerpt from the long documented history of performance of these books and make a declaration that your view is THE view. The facts simply don't support it.

 

Absent a big sale of a high grade MF 52 and AA 16 look how those have lagged. Looks like they need a boost.

 

Maybe you can get Jon to sell the MH 16 and help the case of all those holding mid graders.....

 

you are still missing my point... I am specifically talking about just now... just this little window..not stating it is a trend, etc, just reporting what is happening "now"... how just because a book is hitting a million, it is not causing the books around it that are mid grade restored to "rise" right now... in fact, they are falling (in relationships to the increasing prices paid "now" on unrestored copies)...

 

again, you know I understand the "longer term" affect... but that is not my point...

 

my point is that these million dollar sales have not caused any immediate increase in price point or real world sales of any mid grade restored "keys"...

 

that's all

 

And that is why you are as wrong as wrong can be. It's the Florida - Nebraska game all over again.

 

Neve mind the fact that it has been true for 29 out of the last 30 years right? Because you say no, during the worst economic time since the great depression, it isn't true, then your case is proved, right?

 

And a holding call, or whatever, was the reason your team lost by about 40 points. Yeah, I see your point now buddy

 

(thumbs u

now, on that point (the holding call) that is my story and I am sticking with it (and it was only 38 points )

 

but, seriously, what does 29 out of 30 years have to do with my current observation and current sales that 100% support my statement/observation (would anyone like me to cite all the examples of mid grade restored keys that are selling down to WAY down from previous sales prices, even admist this "explosion" in unrestored key sales...I believe I have 6 restored superman 1 sales that are at much lower prices, several tec 27's that have sat unsold during this time period, batman 1's that have either sold lower than in recent years or sit unsold at current asking prices, several action 1's restored that the prices have jumped tremendously-2-3x original purchase price, but that still aren't getting "pre record" sales offers etc, etc)...

 

and actually, I can site several years , consecutive years actually, of market down swings (like 2003-4, where unrestored tec 27's and action 1's were selling at double digit drops from previous years sales, etc)... that is all cyclical...prices rise and fall, establish a new plateau, then rise and fall again, relative to a myriad of reasons (economic, media hype, supply and demand swings, etc) you are not making any sense?

 

the worse economic time since the great depression hasn't stopped folks from ponying up 300K for a 3.0 action 1, 1mil for a 8.0 action 1, 1.5 mil for a 8.5 action 1, 1 mil for a 8.0 tec 27, 575K for a 6.0 tec 27, 400K for 9.6 Flash 1, over 300K offers on 4.0 tec 27's etc, etc? in fact, it further supports my analysis...

 

if this "golden age" of record comic prices were acting in the rising tide theory across all books, we shouldn't have to wait a year(s) or even months and months to see the effect...they should be rising NOW...and unrestored copies are...restored mid grade are NOT (that is 100% fact)... not saying they won't eventually increase in price, that is the nature of the business... i am saying that they are NOT increasing in price at the same time that the unrestored copies are exponentially increasing in price... please tell me how I am "wrong"

 

shouldn't this 300K bid on the Batman 1, if I am "wrong as wrong" mean that all these mid grade restored batman 1's are now worth 20% more, and so folks should be popping them like crazy at current prices?...yet, for months and months now, sales are stagnant on them, and when they do sell (like the restored superman 1's), they are selling for LESS than they have at almost any point in the last 5 years...

so,while I won't ever say I am 100% RIGHT, please someone give me some evidence to the contrary (thumbs u

 

At the risk of sounding like the guy in Fiddler on the Roof, you both are right... to an extent.

 

I agree with Roy that the million dollar sales will or at least should affect the values of those books in all grades. But like Rick I am not surprised to see no impact in prices going on now. But I also didn't expect to see any quick increase across the board, esp for restored books. And not just because of the economy. We're talking about books that are known outside the core collecting community, and those people read casually about the sales. Among the many people who've heard about the million dollar sales are lots of people who might be interested in owning a book like Batman 1.

 

But, even as there may be increased interest in investing in those comics, the outside the hobby individual is still going to go about looking into the books in the same way.

 

When they see the Overstreet price for a near mint Batman 1 is far below the most recent sales, they don't know the near mint price has been wrong for years, so they're more likely to think the current sale is an even bigger spike than it is. And that will make them more cautious.

 

And when they hear things like that the Overstreet guide is only 9500 for a Batman 1 in good condition, they tend to think that "good" means a copy that's attractive. So they will tend to persist in thinking that while they can't get a near mint, they can still get a really attractive copy for about that price.

 

And when they hear a book is "restored" they will almost always presume the book was unattractive before it was "restored" -- meaning it must have been less than "good" in the first place. They don't know that a LOW grade purple label book might have appeared virtually the same all along, or that in some cases the markings or glue on the book didn't effect the eye appeal and/or wouldn't have changed the grade if they were considered defects.

 

These people also don't know there are virtually no copies in near mint, or that books with the same numerical grade can vary widely in terms of eye appeal.

 

Sure, they can set out to learn all this stuff. But, along the way, some of that info may leave them less inclined, rather than more, to invest in a comic. (the guide is the best example of that; once you hear it's not only wrong now but that it's been wrong for a while, you can't help worrying that the "official" price will continue to be wrong if and when you go to sell).

 

So, because of all that, I didn't expect increases across the boad to occur quickly. But, there's no question the million dollar sales have greatly increased awareness and interest in comics featuring the most well-known characters. And among those comics, Batman 1 is, and will continue to be, one of the most sought after.

 

 

 

[G.A.tor]

I agree with everyone

[ft88]

I'd like to throw in a little currency argument as well. Many folks are looking for hard assets to buy such as gold, art, and collectibles. I think Million dollar Action 1 and Tec 27 do fit in that realm and a 20k restored Batman 1 does not. So the 20k book looks "downward" to how the entire Batman run is doing in sales moreso than "upward" at the record setting prices. Though something has to lead the charge of, in this case, Batman sales either up or down and usually its the 20k books that do that.

 

As an example. We saw the craziness in Spiderman 14 well before the significant rises in AF 15 and ASM 1. One example is not the trend but in the last 5 years we saw very nice sales and huge demand for Adams Batmans, Pre Robin Tecs as well as early Superman WWII covers and early Action Superman covers. Perfect time for record sales in the top two books.

 

I agree that that has not lead the Superman 1 or Batman 1 restored prices higher currently. While pre Robin Tecs and the early Action Superman covers are still hot as can be, I think later Superman common issues and even Adams Batmans have cooled off a bit. So IMO the jury's out on the two restored #1s.

[ComicConnoisseur]

I'd like to throw in a little currency argument as well. Many folks are looking for hard assets to buy such as gold, art, and collectibles. I think Million dollar Action 1 and Tec 27 do fit in that realm and a 20k restored Batman 1 does not. So the 20k book looks "downward" to how the entire Batman run is doing in sales moreso than "upward" at the record setting prices. Though something has to lead the charge of, in this case, Batman sales either up or down and usually its the 20k books that do that.

 

As an example. We saw the craziness in Spiderman 14 well before the significant rises in AF 15 and ASM 1. One example is not the trend but in the last 5 years we saw very nice sales and huge demand for Adams Batmans, Pre Robin Tecs as well as early Superman WWII covers and early Action Superman covers. Perfect time for record sales in the top two books.

 

I agree that that has not lead the Superman 1 or Batman 1 restored prices higher currently. While pre Robin Tecs and the early Action Superman covers are still hot as can be, I think later Superman common issues and even Adams Batmans have cooled off a bit. So IMO the jury's out on the two restored #1s.

That`s the key word folks, they are restored while the million dollar books were not. That`s how I look at it as someone new to the hobby. I see restored and my interest drops,I don`t know why my interest drops but it does. A lot of restored books are beautiful.Just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.

[thedude]

I agree with everyone

 

not me, I think all you people are wack.

[showcase22gr1959]

There has been a lot of action on Actions lately. (thumbs u

[seank]

I'd like to throw in a little currency argument as well. Many folks are looking for hard assets to buy such as gold, art, and collectibles. I think Million dollar Action 1 and Tec 27 do fit in that realm and a 20k restored Batman 1 does not. So the 20k book looks "downward" to how the entire Batman run is doing in sales moreso than "upward" at the record setting prices. Though something has to lead the charge of, in this case, Batman sales either up or down and usually its the 20k books that do that.

 

As an example. We saw the craziness in Spiderman 14 well before the significant rises in AF 15 and ASM 1. One example is not the trend but in the last 5 years we saw very nice sales and huge demand for Adams Batmans, Pre Robin Tecs as well as early Superman WWII covers and early Action Superman covers. Perfect time for record sales in the top two books.

 

I agree that that has not lead the Superman 1 or Batman 1 restored prices higher currently. While pre Robin Tecs and the early Action Superman covers are still hot as can be, I think later Superman common issues and even Adams Batmans have cooled off a bit. So IMO the jury's out on the two restored #1s.

That`s the key word folks, they are restored while the million dollar books were not. That`s how I look at it as someone new to the hobby. I see restored and my interest drops,I don`t know why my interest drops but it does. A lot of restored books are beautiful.Just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.

 

I thought for a long time about whether to go Blue or Purple on this purchase. Eventually, I decided that I'd rather get a nicer-looking book in my price range instead of a beater Blue. For a key like this, I think it's a reasonable decision. I wouldn't do the same for a generic GA book or anything published after 1960. I also don't expect to make big bucks on this purchase. If I wanted a decent return on my money over the long-term, I'd look to the financial markets. Here, I think I'm getting a book that will hold its value, will look nice, and will make people go "wow." I can live with that.

[Mr. 10%]

There has been a lot of action on Actions lately. (thumbs u

 

May I concur that Boardies have also been pretty TECative on Tecs lately

[seank]

And to derail my own thread again, I checked with my LCS and he doesn't have a Batman 1. I've sent the seller a PM about arranging a meeting.

 

(My LCS owner is Brian Peets, so it's entirely possible he would have a Batman 1 back in the vault.)

[G.A.tor]

seank, I like the idea of buy a pretty restored batman 1...again, right now it actually a good time to buy one!

[bluechip]

I'd like to throw in a little currency argument as well. Many folks are looking for hard assets to buy such as gold, art, and collectibles. I think Million dollar Action 1 and Tec 27 do fit in that realm and a 20k restored Batman 1 does not. So the 20k book looks "downward" to how the entire Batman run is doing in sales moreso than "upward" at the record setting prices. Though something has to lead the charge of, in this case, Batman sales either up or down and usually its the 20k books that do that.

 

As an example. We saw the craziness in Spiderman 14 well before the significant rises in AF 15 and ASM 1. One example is not the trend but in the last 5 years we saw very nice sales and huge demand for Adams Batmans, Pre Robin Tecs as well as early Superman WWII covers and early Action Superman covers. Perfect time for record sales in the top two books.

 

I agree that that has not lead the Superman 1 or Batman 1 restored prices higher currently. While pre Robin Tecs and the early Action Superman covers are still hot as can be, I think later Superman common issues and even Adams Batmans have cooled off a bit. So IMO the jury's out on the two restored #1s.

That`s the key word folks, they are restored while the million dollar books were not. That`s how I look at it as someone new to the hobby. I see restored and my interest drops,I don`t know why my interest drops but it does. A lot of restored books are beautiful.Just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.

 

I thought for a long time about whether to go Blue or Purple on this purchase. Eventually, I decided that I'd rather get a nicer-looking book in my price range instead of a beater Blue. For a key like this, I think it's a reasonable decision. I wouldn't do the same for a generic GA book or anything published after 1960. I also don't expect to make big bucks on this purchase. If I wanted a decent return on my money over the long-term, I'd look to the financial markets. Here, I think I'm getting a book that will hold its value, will look nice, and will make people go "wow." I can live with that.

 

 

Thing is there's purple label restored where the book was actually a beater or worse and got a massive makeover, and then there's purple label technical restored where the book looked pretty damn good in the first place and would likely grade the same with or without the "work." If you can get one in the latter category I'd consider it a safer bet.