Future of Comic Book Collecting

[Guest]

Heres my idea. Go back to the way comics were made 20 years ago and charge 60 cents like they used to. Think about it....If they underprint it and there is a high demand, people will start viewing new comics as truly collectable. Not only that but it will be harder to get higher CGC grades with the old style of cheap printing. Right now there is just too much supply and not enough demand. I vote for a needed regression of comic materials and excessive printing. Just a thought though.....

[aardvark88]

It's been a yr & I still don't see Dark Horse or Marvel adapting Harry Potter in comic form. The license must cost both an arm & a leg. Heck, I enjoy the Tales of the Neverending Story on Cdn. tv, but don't see a comic adaptation either.

[Kevin Boyd]

Sorry MOS, I think you are reading too much into things. Chill.

 

Kev

[FlComicFan]

since we seem to all agree that cover prices are too high whats the best mail order company offering the best discounts on subscriptions. I would mind picking up a few new titles but shudder to have to pay the full cover prices and the local comic shop leaves much to be desired as far as customer service so I dont feel guilty seeking them elsewhere

[Kevin Boyd]

Just to follow up on that. I'm not saying that you are wrong in making the suggestions that you have. You've done a great job, as have others, in reiterating what went wrong with comics.

 

And I'm not taking personal shots at you... or being overly critical. I do think that some of your opinions are somewhat naive, but that doesn't make me think that you are stupid in having those opinions.

 

I've tried to point out, at great lengths, that we cannot just ignore 20-30 years of changes in the marketplace and in consumer demand to just go back to way that things were. Things have happened for a reason. Choices were made because the avenues that you seem to want to reopen were closing from the other end. The comics industry survives today because the companies were lucky enough to have the direct market to fall back on. We would not be having this discussion today if there was no direct market. Corner stores can order comics if they want to, they don't. Is it price? Perhaps. But they weren't ordering them when they were $1 and those lack of orders have helped drive the price up to $3+ in order to maintain consistant costs.

 

When you cut costs to produce cheap comics, as the companies HAVE tried before. Then either (a) the quality of the comics suck like the cheap 99 cent(Avengers, FF, Uncanny Origins, Marvel Fanfare Vol. 2, Professor X and the X-Men) comics of the early 1990's (with the exception of Untold Tales of Spider-Man) or (b) the people selling the books suffer because they have to sell twice as many comics as they did the month before in order to make the same profit.

 

Really, it would be wonderful if we could just go back and sell cheap comics in corner stores on newsprint filled with wonderful ads for all sorts of products, but that is simply not going to happen and I've written quite a bit about why it isn't. The stores don't want them. The advertizers don't want to advertize in them. And the kids don't want to buy them.

 

I agree that they need to promote outside of the industry FIRST. I agree that they should consider the price point of their product NOW and I believe that they are. They are clinging to the remnants on the pamphlet system as much as we are because the people that run the companies are also fans. I agree that the ways that comics are marketted and distributed are causing further isolation and crippling the future of the industry and the format. ONE major distributor to a system of isolated specialty used bookstores is quite sad.

 

And no I was not suggesting that they put entire comics within those magazines. But smaller self-contained stories would be an idea worth pursuing then just a 5 page reprint from the latest issue of Ultimate Spider-Man.

 

Kev

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

IMO, you are the one that needs to "chill". Telling me that I needed to chill indicated that you were for some reason upset by my post. I thought that I did a balanced job of complimenting you, with pointing out where I disagree, and explained why.

 

And I'm not taking personal shots at you... or being overly critical. I do think that some of your opinions are somewhat naive,

 

...and what is this supposed to mean? That my opinions are deficient of informed judgment? You wouldn't call what you said there overly critical would you? If that makes you feel more intelligent then go right ahead.

 

Don't think for one minute that I'm unaware of the situation, I've watched the largest comic shop in my area go out of business. And I'll tell you why (in no particular order):

 

1.) Customer Service - The owner was quite rude, and he let his partner smoke in the shop. I"m sure your well aware of what cigarette smoke will do to comics in a short period of time.

 

QUESTION: Is the customer # 1, and do you go out of your way to please a customer?

 

2.) Location - The shop changed locations 4 times that I can remember. I would say that only 2 of those locations were successful.

 

QUESTION: Is the shop were you are working in a good location?

 

3.) Investers/Speculators quit collecting - Unfortunately when I first started collecting seriously (bag & boards, and concerned about condition) it was during one of the highest speculation periods in comic book history (1989-1993). I quit collecting comic books in 1993, and I would have been labeled a collector/speculator. One of the BIG turnoffs as a collector were the Overinflated/Unrealistic asking prices for "hot" books, and sometimes prices would get jacked up within a week or less of arrival on NEW books. To sum it up, when the investing/speculating died, that shop slowly died with it.

 

QUESTION: Who are you depending on for financial support? The fly-by-night speculators or the collectors that are here to stay?

 

4.) Character Oversaturation - Do you remember when Punisher appearances were something special? During the 90's speculation, the folks at Marvel made the assumption that if a character were "hot", then their presence could make even a book like Peter Porker the Specutacular Spider-Ham a "hot" book.

 

5.) Gimmik Oversaturation - Foil, Chrome, Gold, Silver, Hologram, and so on. What started out as something kind of neat, turned into an every other issue occurance. Comic publishers decided that an enhanced cover would became the selling point rather that the story and art inside.

 

I am aware that comic shops have had to "resort" to selling cards like MTG (it's hardly a new or recent source of profit though) and other things as well. I'm well aware that it takes profit to stay in business, and that comic shops would not have to resort to selling other products if comic books could provide a steady source of income. Among other things, a sharp mind, patience, and hard work are required to make it in today's market. You are a seller, and I am a buyer, and that explains some of the differences in perspective. And IMO, that is the reason for the friction. I'm the guy looking for the best deal, and your the guy looking for the best offer.

[Rickdogg]

Cmon you guys. Just kiss and get it over with already

 

or better yet. Just go outside and catch some fresh air---->

[greggy]

Ricky = Peacemaker = Meth protege!

[Rickdogg]

Well, we all know that Meth is back. I don't personally care since some of his matches were comedy to say the least. His paragraphs were as long as bugaboo's software generated posts hahahah. Who are you meth? Arch out him hahahaha

[greggy]

You mean you are not meth? The word in the hood is incorrect?

[Kevin Boyd]

Not upset at all... somewhat amused....

 

Well.. actually I don't think you've reasonably argued a case for why you feel comics would succeed again at a lower price point and if they were back in the larger market. I've tried to point out that there are reasons why this won't happen which you seem to ignore in favor of addressing smaller points.

 

In your latest post you've done an excellent job of explaining why and how COMIC SHOPS drove people away from the hobby and ended up in the state that they are today.

 

Back to your latest points:

 

1.) Customer service - why would the larger market do any better at this? All you would have would be a lot of pleasant people selling items they know nothing about instead of a bunch of grumpy fat guys selling stuff that they do know about! That's a real toss-up but I think I would rather get the RIGHT information instead.

 

That shop may have gone out of business, and I'm not suggesting any excuse for rudeness, but the theory behind the specialty store is that they are supposed to provide you with knowledge and experience.

 

If I go to a bookstore and ask about the DVD release which was supposed to be out that week but they don't have, I usually get a blank stare and either a scripted response or a denial that it came out. If I go to a store that sells DVDs they will know what I'm talking about and either have it or know why it was delayed.

 

To paraphrase your second last post, if you had read my bio you would know that I don't work in a comic shop...

 

...but I agree that when it comes to customer service, the customer should come first.... but when it comes to customer service in a specialty store I don't believe in the theory that the customer is always right.

 

2) When it comes to comic shops location is always going to be an issue. Being that they are often the only store in a given area that sells comics they cover a wider area than most regular shops. People have to want to travel to get what you are selling.

 

Since I live in a large city I get to pick and choose from about 6 different shops that I could go to to buy my weekly comics. I choose to go to my friend's store because I've been shopping there for over 10 years, I'm personal friends with everyone who works there - plus I get a pretty reasonable discount on my books that keeps me coming back and placing my order with him. But the biggest reason is because going there on a wednesday evening, hanging around, talking comics and going out for wings and beer after is a weekly tradition.

 

For the most part his local customers are the neighbourhood kids, and they have little use for or interest in comics at all. At best they are interested in Simpsons comics and he keeps boxes of recent comics marked down to a $1 a piece near the front door. They couldn't care less. Why would you think if those comics were priced at a dollar in some wider outlet that they would do any better?

 

He keeps older customers coming back by buying collections of older comics, as most older fans couldn't care any more for the new releases than the kids do.

 

3) Since investing/speculating was getting popular again last year and this (until about August) the stores saw an increase in foot traffic. The people that left the hobby because of speculation came back AND SPECULATED on books like Origin and DK2. They've gone agian because they came back thinking that the potential for investment had returned and they got burned again.

 

4) I do remember those days... and I see everyone in comics valiantly trying to revive this every chance they get. God, how many bloody x-books are there now? More than they were before Quesada cancelled the last batch. How many Spider-Man books are there? I'd say as many or more than there were before the reboot. If a character is hot they will oversaturate to make the fast buck.

 

5) So what was that Transformers gimmick cover that I saw going for $50 in the summer? And that issue had a couple of other covers as well. Or how about the Battle of the Planets one with the holofoil cover plus four other covers? Marvel and DC may have toned that down but the aftermarket still seems to thrive on variants to a certain degree.

 

If people were actually READING the comics that they bought they wouldn't have cared so much. The people that I knew who left the hobby at the time left because they were upset because they felt that they had to buy ALL of the variants and that they couldn't keep up.

 

It's not that they have had to resort to selling cards. It's that cards (and to a lesser extent toys) have BECOME the business NOW and comics are being put on the sidelines in their own stores! If we can't even sell comics within comic shops then why would we think that they would sell any better out in the public domain?

 

AND FINALLY... I am primarily a BUYER not a seller. I sell so that I can buy more.

 

I don't run a comic shop. I go to one every week and spend between $40-100 on new product because I like to READ COMICS not because I like to sell comics.

 

I sell comics because, once I've read them, I don't necessarily want to keep them and this is a way to recoup some of my expenses. And what I sell on the web is PRIMARILY comic ART, not comic books... and most of what I sell is on commission. Less than 10% of what I have on e-bay at any given time is my own stuff.

 

I don't sit around thinking about what would get me to buy more comics. I've come to the conclusion that if I want to read something then I don't care what the price is. I don't sit around scrutinizing the prices of the new releases and I don't think that if the prices were any lower that I would buy more.

 

I know that the way that things are today that I can always pick up issues cheaper as back issues during sales, at conventions, on the web, etc but I don't because I support the titles I want to read (not collect) on new release Wednesday because I want them to succeed.

 

When people decide that they won't pay $2.25 (!!!!) for a new release and would prefer to wait to pick them up cheaper on the web then they are IMO being cheap and have no right to [!@#%^&^] about a good book being cancelled or the sad state of the new comics industry.

 

Kev

 

[comicinvestor-migration]

Reasons why low-priced comics will never fly:

 

1) The actual customer has changed from the reader/collector to the comic shop itself. Marvel, DC et al are no longer marketing to the individual buyer, but actively trying to get comic shops to buy more, since this is the end consumer under the Direct market. Jemas has proven this point with his no reprint strategy (designed to bring back dealer hoarding and over-ordering) and the other companies continue to do so with dealer-only variants and per-order promos. This "new comic economy" could never work in a real retail environment, as it's tailored to the closed-end, niche market comic shops.

 

2) If someone experimented with low-priced, high-ad, toilet paper-like newsprint books in the retail environment, I think many "prestige format" readers would ditch the comic boutiques and buy their cheap books from the 7-11 instead. Companies talk all day about quality paper, cardstock covers, etc., but this is just a way of justifying higher unit costs. Lower quality/cost goods would be scarfed up quickly if the content was exactly the same. Comic companies have their captive audience paying $3 a pop (or more) for the monthly prestige format pamphlet, so why rock the boat?

 

3) Once gone, the retail distribution network is tough to get back. Comics have been distributed almost exclusively to comic boutique shops for years and it's tough to go back to the big chain retailers and start asking for entry. Some say that the 7-11's "don't want to stock comics anymore", but that's only a half-truth. The other half is that they cannot play by the same rules as the Direct Market, with over-priced, low-volume comics taking up valuable room. lower-cost/higher volume books would guarantee some shelf space, but that would compete directly with the prestige format books of the comic boutiques.

 

4) Comic economics are out of whack with what the long-term market can bear. Marvel is paying an arm and a leg for their "top talent" like Bendis, Morrison, Millar, etc. and these guys are not going to accept any real-world economics lowering their potential salary. Everyone is worried about today, not 5-10 years down the line, and would rather line the coffers under the short-term than correct the problems long-term. Comics are very similar to baseball in that regard, and both are headed down the same path.

 

5) It's easier to play the status quo, than it is to institute real and lasting change. You'd probably get fired for wanting to lower unit prices or explore new markets, while a fast-track promotion is in the order if you can dredge up a POS idea like Origin or The Truth that actually makes the old-fogey comic buyers fork over even more money for their fix. How to bleed the existing customer base the fastest and hardest, that's the comic book business plan for 2003.

 

Low priced comics are a fantasy that, although I agree it would help long-term prospects, would never be instituted by the major companies. It's been too long, they have grown fat on high cover prices, and I think, have almost accepted the inevitable, long-term erosion of the market.

 

It's kind of like calling your old girlfriend up 10 years later and finding she's married with 4 kids. Marvel and DC have been living in a fantasy world the last 10 years, and can never go home again.

[Bugaboo-migration]

His paragraphs were as long as bugaboo's software generated posts hahahah.

HEY! ....................I resemble that remark.

[Darthdiesel]

institute a comic bk club/swap each week. Donations from collector/dealer/distributor overstock of suitable material. Sorry Darth, this excludes Cherry Poptart.

 

Like these kids already don't get picked on enough. Need a member the size of mini-Meth to ensure this club's safety. Maybe my Poptarts can be appreciated at the college level. I've gone over some Kissyfurs and Carebears with my wife for reading aids in her 2nd grade classroom. They also (gasp!) cut out panels from the books and do some creative projects like insert their own faces in the panels or learn how to trace (prepping them to become future inkers ) curvatures on human and animal forms... 2nd graders's fine motor skills are not quite as honed yet and eed some help when it comes to drawing, but you can definitely see some promise in these tyro artists!

 

[FlComicFan]

I'm not sure where the rationality is in your argument of pricing. It stands to reason that if comic prices were lowered many of the readers who dropped out would come back and it makes sense that kids could much better afford $1 or even $2 comics rather than the $2.99 and up a pop . Comic shops arent going to get hurt by lowered prices , they will simply sell more and likely wil have more customers to sell to.People have a budget they are willing to spend on entertainment. I'm sure no collector would complain about getting 6-7 comics for a ten bucks as opposed to paying that for 3 comics. On the plus side they would me more likely to affoed to overorder a little bit for backstock and to have on hand for the casual customer. Whats really better selling 40,000 copies of the latest issue at $2.99 a pop or selling 200,000 at a $1? The money is there its simply being spent on back issues by the collectors who still hold out hope and all it takes is some ingenuity to attract new readers and lure old ones who dropped out back into the fold. With the larger readership they could once again attract more advertising dollars to help with the costs of producing the books. From what I keep reading and hearing the readers are out there they are just not willing to pay ridiculous prices for new books so its time for the publishers to quit the taking the easy way by forcing a ever shrinking group of people to keep them in business. Plain greed got the comic market where it is today but its not too late. I diont buy the arguments that kids dont want comics and only care about Internet, dvds, video games. Video games were around when I was a kid I had all the Ataris,Coleco Visions all that stuff and was a daily fixture at the arcade wailing away on whatever new game just came out. Overseas comics sell huge numbers and it could be the same here. Chet

[comicinvestor-migration]

I'm not sure where the rationality is in your argument of pricing. It stands to reason that if comic prices were lowered many of the readers who dropped out would come back and it makes sense that kids could much better afford $1 or even $2 comics rather than the $2.99 and up a pop . Comic shops arent going to get hurt by lowered prices , they will simply sell more and likely wil have more customers to sell to.

 

I think you're right, but it would not be instantaneous and many comic shops and comic companies are living hand-to-mouth and couldn't take 4-6 months of transition time where sales potentially ramped up.

 

As with most things in life, maintaining the status quo is a lot less risky (short-term) than any real change. Jemas is not going to stay at Marvel for long, so he just wants to show short-term results (passing his management record - $$$ at the next job) and let the next guy worry about the longer vision.

[FlComicFan]

I agree with all of your post my friend. Comics followed the same path blazed by the trading card companies just a year or two later. Either they can once again make a product to be read by the masses or they can continue to attemtp to manufacture "collectibles" using their various tactics they seem to be so good at. As for the creators, I cant speak for the writers as many of the more popular ones seem to put out a healthy amount of work but many of the artists need to put in a few more hours on the drawing board each day. Its pathetic when the artist can deliver a 3 issue series he been paid a boatload of cash for on time. Oldtimers like Kirby cranked out 4-5 titles a month and never missed a deadline some of these new guys cant keep up with one semi monthly title. Kev I unlike you wont pay $3 or whatever just to support a title. What if they raise the price next year to $5 will you still support your favorite books? Or maybe in 2-3 years to will be $10 hell they will raise them to as much as they fell somebody is going to pay. Economics 101 my friend no matter what you are selling if its not perceived to be worth the asking price you're no going to sell too many.

[Kevin Boyd]

Good points. I sure wish you would consider putting paragraph breaks in your posts!

 

New issue sales are mediocre at best these days, and I don't necessarily believe that lowering prices necessarily means that people will come back and buy the books if the books are themselves mediocre, as most comics being published today are.

 

Lowering prices means lowering profit. I won't buy the Superman titles now, why would I buy them if they were a dollar cheaper?

 

As I mentioned in another post, they've tried cheaper priced comics and they failed for numerous reasons. You've stated before that you don't believe that stores are not interested in selling lower priced books because the potential return is not there so I won't push the issue except to say that yes, if volume of sales increased it would make up for lost revenues from lower priced books. That's not a guarantee that your sales are going to increase though - it's one heck of a risk that I don't think anyone wants to take in such an unhealthy market.

 

Good comics = better sales. And that's the one benefit of SOME of the decisions being made at Marvel beyond the cash grabs like Origin and Truth. They have improved the quality of the main line of titles and seen sales increase as a result. Higher sales means fewer price increases and I thinks that's about as good as it's going to get on the downward slope.

 

Greed? Perhaps in the 1990's when direct sales were phenomenal. But the 1980's was a decade of declining sales in the mainstream outlets vs. increasing ones in the direct market. I don't see that as being greed and priced were 1/3 then as what they are now. And there were other factors involved at the time when there were increases in the cost of paper - including newsprint. Paper supply has increased and stabilized for quite some time now, but I don't believe that the costs have lowered.

 

Well Chet, kids don't buy comics because they can't get them and they can't afford them. Since you don't buy any of the points I and others have made about why they can't get them distributed to kids as they are now, and why they can't and won't lower the price I don't know what else I can say except that comics have a language of their own, and kids in europe still have plenty of comics around them in various degrees that they pick up that language and appreciate it. Kids in North America lost that access when comics moved away from them and we've reached a point where we can't simply move five steps back and suddenly everything will be perfect again.

 

Plus, in Europe and Japan and other parts of the world, the heavy hitters, sales-wise like Asterix and Tintin are sold as a series of affordable GRAPHIC NOVELS which is where North American comics are naturally gravitating.

 

The only way to do this is to do what Jemas was threatening to do at one point - restart everything again. Toss continuity out the window and get the new readers involved at the ground level. Forget forty years of convoluted continuity and tell simple straightforward stories in such a manner that every new issue can be someone's starting point without having to draw upon decades worth of interactive storylines.

 

Kev

[Kevin Boyd]

Kev I unlike you wont pay $3 or whatever just to support a title. What if they raise the price next year to $5 will you still support your favorite books? Or maybe in 2-3 years to will be $10 hell they will raise them to as much as they fell somebody is going to pay. Economics 101 my friend no matter what you are selling if its not perceived to be worth the asking price you're no going to sell too many.

 

Chet, I won't support a title if it sucks. And yes, if my favourite title went to $5 I would still buy it (however I get a pretty decent discount for the volume of books that I still order each month so that $5 cover price would be much less for me after discount).

 

If you won't support a title at cover price (and $3 is the low end in today's new book market) and buy it severely reduced as a back issue then you are being cheap, and in my estimation have no stake in supporting the production of new comics. You are effectively saying I will not pay what you are asking so I'm going to pick it up off the store that invested in the book - and lost, trying to recover whatever they can salvage from their loss. You've become a scavenger eating leftover scraps instead of sitting at the table with the rest of us who do support the new releases.

 

Your lack of participation goes a long way towards INCREASING prices as the books flounder without off-the-rack sales and ultimately either be cancelled or the price will go up in order to justify the cost of paying the creators to continue creating the books for the few of us who do care.

 

Economics 101? If no one is buying your books and you cannot lower your production costs in order to lower unit prices then you go bankrupt and cease publication.

 

I think perhaps you are misplacing the greed in this scenario. Should the artists and writers agree to take a pay cut because Scrooge McDuck won't part with an extra 50 cents? They would be better informed to move into the areas that will actually pay them for their work so that they don't have to live hand-to-mouth either. Aside from the Frank Millers in the world, most creators are not overpaid. Some are lazy and should produce more work, I agree with you there, but should they be paid less for the work that they do do because you feel that lowering prices will create more sales? Will the hope that said decrease in cover price will bring the readers back help them pay for their mortgages, their kids schooling, their credit card bills?

 

I still think that the way to go is the other way... create more graphic novels that can be sold at bookstores and work to lower the unit costs in that area, which I think is completely feasible. The 32 page pamphlet does not have enough perceived value (at any price) to justify any kind of reinvigoration in the mainstream marketplace.

 

Kev

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

...and by purchasing new books, your support is telling comic book publishers that the price is AOK. IMO, It's one of those catch 22 type of situations.