Future of Comic Book Collecting

[Turtle]

I remember going to Titan Comics in the DFW area before leaving Texas. I was pretty surprised when two kids (about 10-12 years old or so) walked in and were about to browse when the shop owner told them they needed to have parental supervision to shop in the store. When they left, I asked him why he had that policy. He said he didn't like how little kids would read the comics without any care for the condition of the book.

 

The collector in me understood where he was coming from, but more than that I was sad that the original demographic of the medium wasn't allowed to browse his inventory unsupervised.

[joe_collector]

Surely that shows that movies DO increase sales temporarily?

 

Maybe, but I think the "variant craze" had more to do with than anything else. In order to qualify for the HTF variants LCS owners had to increase their orders well above normal, thereby eating some losses to sell some $$$ variants. This spike was not based on more readers, but clever marketing by DC/Marvel to make LCS owners (who are the real customers here) buy more on a non-returnable basis.

 

Now that this market has pretty well crashed, we're back to the standard orders based on real and perceived readership.

[joe_collector]

The collector in me understood where he was coming from, but more than that I was sad that the original demographic of the medium wasn't allowed to browse his inventory unsupervised.

 

This is very common in shops, especially in malls, as adults comprise 99.9% of their clientele and since Marvel/DC are reaming the owner out with high cover prices and non-returnable comics, they need to keep every single book in sellable condition.

 

Do I agree with it? No, but that's the reality of selling $4+ funny books.

[the blob]

most of those don't seem much different

 

i don't think they're helping thor by seemingly having 5 different thor titles at any given time

 

ditto i think they've hurt the avengers with all of these re-boots, spin-offs, etc.

 

spiderman is down PER issue, but it comes out what, 3X a month? so marvel is actually selling 2X as many ASMs. and while the theory is that 3 (or is it 4) X a month would eliminate the need for 14 other spidey titles...they seem to have crept back into having lots of additional spideys going on

 

but i think the point of the original post is that overall sales among the top 300 titles are up (a little) since 2001 (an all time low) at least for 2009, though probably down in 2010, even if they may have bounced around since 2005 depending on the title.

 

as for how many "warm bodies" these sales represent...I don't think the % of overordering for the sake of hitting #s to get variants is worse now than in 2005/2006 and, in fact, is probably down a lot as retailers are having a tougher time getting those premium prices for the variants and don't want to get stuck with the extras, not with $3-$5 cover prices. and i suspect even fewer folks than ever are speculating on new books and buying multiple copies...certainly for marvel and DC at least. there is simply no money in it.

 

and the huge increase in TPB sales is an indication of something as I doubt folks are buying them for speculation purposes. certainly for walking dead i suspect it signifies some non-comic folks reading some comics.

 

 

[joe_collector]

spiderman is down PER issue, but it comes out what, 3X a month? so marvel is actually selling 2X as many ASMs.

 

But at 3X the talent cost, editorial cost, setup cost, production cost, distribution cost, royalty cost, etc.

 

It's certainly not free money, like a reprint, but the hard-line expenses of creating 3X brand new ASM issues per month.

[the blob]

I remember going to Titan Comics in the DFW area before leaving Texas. I was pretty surprised when two kids (about 10-12 years old or so) walked in and were about to browse when the shop owner told them they needed to have parental supervision to shop in the store. When they left, I asked him why he had that policy. He said he didn't like how little kids would read the comics without any care for the condition of the book.

 

The collector in me understood where he was coming from, but more than that I was sad that the original demographic of the medium wasn't allowed to browse his inventory unsupervised.

 

So he's sending 12 year olds on their way? That's F-ed up. Criminey, I was a junior comic dealer when I was 12.

 

Does the store have 50 cent/$1 boxes?

 

The irony is, I don't know how many times I've seen adults trashing the inventory at a comic shop, like it's ok to bend the whole stack of comics on a rack in half to see if there are any other issues in there. and some of these guys make a point to trash all the cheap books in the bargain box as well if they aren't interested in them.

[He11blazer]

...

 

and the huge increase in TPB sales is an indication of something as I doubt folks are buying them for speculation purposes. certainly for walking dead i suspect it signifies some non-comic folks reading some comics.

 

 

Yep, I don't buy flimsy, perishable new comics any more, but I am buying more hardbacks than ever before. Because they're fun to read. The obsessive need to keep comics in pristine condition has ended up putting me off them. They're just too much hassle (clean dry hands, dainty handling, bag, board, file away, booooring).

 

I still like backissues of course, that's different

[Davenport]

Here is a few of the other big guns sales figures courtesy of icv2.com

Uncanny X-men

10/2006 #479 - 89,052

10/2010 #529 - 62,256

Amazing Spider-man

10/05 #525 - 79,520

10/10 #645 - 56,709

10/10 #646 - 58,125

HULK

10/08 #7 - 110,261

10/10 #26 - 42,934

DEADPOOL

10/08 #3 - 61,833

10/10 #28 - 34,828

GREEN LANTERN

10/2007: Green Lantern #24 -- 78,650

10/2010: Green Lantern #58 -- 81,626

SUPERMAN

10/2005: Superman #222 -- 67,638

10/2010: Superman #704 -- 46,741

DETECTIVE COMICS

10/2005: Detective Comics #812 -- 39,270

10/2010: Detective Comics #870 -- 35,674

so it seems the so called movie effect has no affect at all saleswise for monthly comics.

Sales figures need the context of potential target markets. What's the U.S. population data on the 15 to 35 demographic? Seventy million, eighty million? Somewhere around there...

[the blob]

spiderman is down PER issue, but it comes out what, 3X a month? so marvel is actually selling 2X as many ASMs.

 

But at 3X the talent cost, editorial cost, setup cost, production cost, distribution cost, royalty cost, etc.

 

It's certainly not free money, like a reprint, but the hard cost of creating 3X brand new ASM issues per month.

 

Sure, it's not 2X the profits, but I'd venture to guess profits on ASM haven't gone down in any signficant way. Plus they've lost some folks who would be there for 1X a month, but said "F-this" having to shell out 3 or 4X a month. How much that is I dunno, but some folks here said they were dropping the title.

 

A better comparison is probably Uncanny X-Men, which I suspect at issue 479 had a similar # of spin-off titles potentially sucking away sales as at issue 525, though I also suspect that buying extras for variants was more of a motivating factor for issue 479 than 525, so we might be talking about roughly the same # of warm bodies reading the title.

 

 

[the blob]

Here is a few of the other big guns sales figures courtesy of icv2.com

Uncanny X-men

10/2006 #479 - 89,052

10/2010 #529 - 62,256

Amazing Spider-man

10/05 #525 - 79,520

10/10 #645 - 56,709

10/10 #646 - 58,125

HULK

10/08 #7 - 110,261

10/10 #26 - 42,934

DEADPOOL

10/08 #3 - 61,833

10/10 #28 - 34,828

GREEN LANTERN

10/2007: Green Lantern #24 -- 78,650

10/2010: Green Lantern #58 -- 81,626

SUPERMAN

10/2005: Superman #222 -- 67,638

10/2010: Superman #704 -- 46,741

DETECTIVE COMICS

10/2005: Detective Comics #812 -- 39,270

10/2010: Detective Comics #870 -- 35,674

so it seems the so called movie effect has no affect at all saleswise for monthly comics.

Sales figures need the context of potential target markets. What's the U.S. population data on the 15 to 35 demographic? Seventy million, eighty million? Somewhere around there...

 

Why is this relevant? You think the demographics of the target market have changed so much in 5 years? I suspect there might be more 15 year olds now, but maybe not. The target market is wayyyy over 35. I'd say at least half the customers at my LCS are over 35 as are half the boardies here, maybe more.

[Turtle]

I remember going to Titan Comics in the DFW area before leaving Texas. I was pretty surprised when two kids (about 10-12 years old or so) walked in and were about to browse when the shop owner told them they needed to have parental supervision to shop in the store. When they left, I asked him why he had that policy. He said he didn't like how little kids would read the comics without any care for the condition of the book.

 

The collector in me understood where he was coming from, but more than that I was sad that the original demographic of the medium wasn't allowed to browse his inventory unsupervised.

 

So he's sending 12 year olds on their way? That's F-ed up. Criminey, I was a junior comic dealer when I was 12.

 

Does the store have 50 cent/$1 boxes?

 

The irony is, I don't know how many times I've seen adults trashing the inventory at a comic shop, like it's ok to bend the whole stack of comics on a rack in half to see if there are any other issues in there. and some of these guys make a point to trash all the cheap books in the bargain box as well if they aren't interested in them.

 

Yep, the store had some 50 cent/$1 boxes.

[the blob]

I remember going to Titan Comics in the DFW area before leaving Texas. I was pretty surprised when two kids (about 10-12 years old or so) walked in and were about to browse when the shop owner told them they needed to have parental supervision to shop in the store. When they left, I asked him why he had that policy. He said he didn't like how little kids would read the comics without any care for the condition of the book.

 

The collector in me understood where he was coming from, but more than that I was sad that the original demographic of the medium wasn't allowed to browse his inventory unsupervised.

 

So he's sending 12 year olds on their way? That's F-ed up. Criminey, I was a junior comic dealer when I was 12.

 

Does the store have 50 cent/$1 boxes?

 

The irony is, I don't know how many times I've seen adults trashing the inventory at a comic shop, like it's ok to bend the whole stack of comics on a rack in half to see if there are any other issues in there. and some of these guys make a point to trash all the cheap books in the bargain box as well if they aren't interested in them.

 

Yep, the store had some 50 cent/$1 boxes.

 

If he's so worried, he could direct them to the cheap boxes. I've never been in a store where the shop owner objected to my five year old rummaging through the cheapy boxes (and nobody was saying "you bend it you pay for it" for those). true, i try to keep him away from the rack of new stuff for the sake of my own pocket (though the little monkey got a hold of one last time we were at a shop and when he was done with it there was no way i could put it back on the rack...$2.99 not well spent! ---but hey, i bought so much stuff out of the cheapies I got a free, new, short box out of them, so it was a wash!.)

 

i understand the shop owner's concerns, but unless he knew these kids were a problem (like they had trashed stuff before), it's just bad business. i've known several comic shops that existed near grade schools for the very purpose of attracting these kids. (how much extra revenue it brings in is open to debate....though when i worked at a shop I'd guess the after school crowd probably brought in $50-$75 a day of misc sales (cards, comics, toys, pokeman, etc.) in the 60-90 minutes after school let out -- so, it basically paid for his employee who worked there (I was paid in store credit))

[ComicConnoisseur]

Here is a few of the other big guns sales figures courtesy of icv2.com

Uncanny X-men

10/2006 #479 - 89,052

10/2010 #529 - 62,256

Amazing Spider-man

10/05 #525 - 79,520

10/10 #645 - 56,709

10/10 #646 - 58,125

HULK

10/08 #7 - 110,261

10/10 #26 - 42,934

DEADPOOL

10/08 #3 - 61,833

10/10 #28 - 34,828

GREEN LANTERN

10/2007: Green Lantern #24 -- 78,650

10/2010: Green Lantern #58 -- 81,626

SUPERMAN

10/2005: Superman #222 -- 67,638

10/2010: Superman #704 -- 46,741

DETECTIVE COMICS

10/2005: Detective Comics #812 -- 39,270

10/2010: Detective Comics #870 -- 35,674

so it seems the so called movie effect has no affect at all saleswise for monthly comics.

Sales figures need the context of potential target markets. What's the U.S. population data on the 15 to 35 demographic? Seventy million, eighty million? Somewhere around there...

 

Why is this relevant? You think the demographics of the target market have changed so much in 5 years? I suspect there might be more 15 year olds now, but maybe not. The target market is wayyyy over 35. I'd say at least half the customers at my LCS are over 35 as are half the boardies here, maybe more.

I am showing there has been no growth with new readers even with all the movie hype, Sure the target market of over 35 is still hanging on but if these sale results continue the course we can expect in five years the average Marvel selling under 30,000 copies a month.

I expect the big heroes like Supes,Bats,Spider-man and Wolverine to live on in other media like an example would be instead of every month waiting for thier latest comic book adventures,maybe once or twice a year we will be waiting for thier new adventures in graphic novels or videogames.

[Hepcat]

Why are you clinging to the local comic shop (LCS) as if it is the only choice you have? I switched to an online retailer (DCBS) and have no problem getting the independent titles I want. There is so many titles available that I would never have seen or heard about if I was shopping at the LCS exclusively. I cannot buy everything I'm interested in reading and I don't even buy superhero titles from the big two. An added bonus to switching to mail order is the deep discounts. If the local comic shop disappears, good riddance! Serves them right for just stocking and pushing the same old Marvel and DC titles, none of which I am interested in. Alternatively, you can buy your big two books at the local comic shop and your independents from one of the online retailers if you feel you need to support your LCS.

 

I disagree. I strongly encourage people to support their local comic shop. If LCS close due to lack of support, the access of comic fans to back issues and supplies will decrease dramatically. LCS also provide a very good overview of what's available or happening in the comic book industry. Online is a far from adequate substitute for the products/services of the local shop.

 

So, I'll ask this question. Is the industry really hurting, or is the industry just changing? All of the arguments I'm reading is because people are clinging to the old distribution methods (brick and mortar convenient stores not carry comics appears to be everyone's big complaint) and the dwindling of brick and mortar LCSs. We may have lost the convenient store distribution (what, over 20 years ago?) and we may now lose some brink and mortar specialty stores, but there are ample online retailers willing to step in and cater to your comic needs.

 

The industry is indeed changing, but not in a positive way. Comic characters became popular icons because comics were not only in the face of every youngster at every corner store, but were priced affordably.But the indusry has now become more and more focused on the adult collector with the deeper pockets. This is not a good thing because without new fans, i.e. kids, the industry will slowly atrophy. I can't believe that movies and licensing by themselves will be enough to keep the industry healthy. Movies and licensing are only valuable if the characters themselves are popular and thus marketable in their own right. That marketability can only be measured by unit comic sales.

 

[rjrjr]

Maybe I should clarify, I'm only addressing the span of time I've been reading and collecting comics. I'm over 40. I started reading comics in the 70s. (The first comic off the news-stand I remember getting was Star Wars #26, although I'm sure there were issues before this that my parents bought for me.) Back then, the death of the industry was being talked about.

 

You definitely got into comics pretty late, so my initial estimates were off. 1979-80 was a tough time for comics and was the official start of the DM with some books going DM-only and catering to a more adult/upscale market.

 

The time period I was thinking of was the 1973-77 era, which was quite a bit different.

 

 

If Star Wars #1 "saved" the industry as is reported in Overstreet Price Guide, the industry had to have been close to death no later than early 1977 (Star Wars #1 was published in April/May 1977. So, for the industry to have been so close to death, I imagine there were a few years of data to base that on (surely nobody was proclaiming the death of comics based on a few months or a years worth of data?), so I'd say we are looking at the mid 1970s as being a tough time for comics. I have a Creepy or Eerie magazine from the mid 70s that has an article in it about the imminent death of the comic industry.

 

So, for most of my life, comics have been on life support. Lets call it 35 years. Action #1 was published in 1938, 72 years ago. So, almost half the time superhero comics have been around, there have been people proclaiming the imminent death of the comic industry.

 

8 years from now, someone will revive this thread and we can all repeat the same arguments (ad naseum) about why the comic industry is failing. Yet, comics are more available in more forms with more variety than any other point in the industry's existence.

 

It isn't possible for the comic industry to survive on just adult readers (Poor porn industry. Without the kid audience and accessibility at the corner convenient store, it's days are definitely numbered.) Nobody is attracted to comics after they reach a certain age. I also hear that nobody reads anymore either. That thing called the Internet with all those words is a huge failure.

[rjrjr]

I understand this is just a 12 year snapshot of the industry and comics sold many more copies in years prior to 1997

 

Exactly, and the high-point in the 2000's was during the comic movie boom/CGC speculator spike, and it has been moving down ever since.

 

Based on what evidence? I just linked to charts on Comics Chronicles that show there is no such downward trend in the 2000s. In fact, the charts show a steady, if not upward trend if you take into account the availability of collections. Again, I don't know if Diamond is the sole distributor of TPBs to non-DM stores for these numbers either.

[the blob]

I am showing there has been no growth with new readers even with all the movie hype, Sure the target market of over 35 is still hanging on but if these sale results continue the course we can expect in five years the average Marvel selling under 30,000 copies a month.

--------

 

this is almost a given with these titles i think. if new kids are coming in they are buying the kids "adventures" comics or cartoon netwok comics. do they eventually read the regular stuff when they get older? that remains to be seen. what are the sales #s on the kids comics, like 15-25,000? they aren't in the top 500 list.

 

 

************

 

with that said, it seems like 2009 may have been artificially skewed by a lot of "600" issues coming out that year as well as ASM 583 (half a million copies +!??).

 

not sure if you can say it was skewed due to blackest night 1 or batman & robin 1 as stuff like that happens every year.

 

I am impressed with Buffy though, it sells like a big marvel or DC title. Who would have thunk it?

 

i had some concern that the TPB #s for 2009 were skewed by watchmen and while that was a factor, it didn't account for THAT much. the TPBs of WD sell better than the comics! (ok, not exactly..)

[rjrjr]

spiderman is down PER issue, but it comes out what, 3X a month? so marvel is actually selling 2X as many ASMs.

 

But at 3X the talent cost, editorial cost, setup cost, production cost, distribution cost, royalty cost, etc.

 

It's certainly not free money, like a reprint, but the hard-line expenses of creating 3X brand new ASM issues per month.

 

 

Are we suppose to feel sorry for the comic publishers who canibalized their own sales by producing more titles featuring the same character month in or month out? Or that they drive up the cost of the "limited" pool of talent by going after "hot" creators? Marvel and DC did this to themselves. But, I wouldn't worry about them too much, since as publishers, they are making more profits now in their publishing arms (and even more in their movie arms) than any time in the past.

 

I gotta ask, if comic publishing is in such bad shape, why does Marvel and DC continue to publish? Why not just outsource the publishing or cease publishing all together? After all, from other threads I read around here, modern comics are poorly done and they don't create new lasting characters (there goes the argument for using publishing as R&D.) And why does talent even stick around in this industry? It's like piling on the Titanic for it's maiden voyage.

 

:grin:

[FlyingDonut]

Amazing Spider-man

10/05 #525 - 79,520

10/10 #645 - 56,709

10/10 #646 - 58,125

 

So for roughly $175,000, one could buy every copy of Amazing Spider-Man in a given month? That would be pretty awesome, actually. What would the price of a Spider-Man issue on the open market be if only one was available?

[the blob]

So, for most of my life, comics have been on life support. Lets call it 35 years. Action #1 was published in 1938, 72 years ago. So, almost half the time superhero comics have been around, there have been people proclaiming the imminent death of the comic industry.

---------

 

not so mid or so 80's through 1994 or so. the circulation #s were pretty decent then.

 

of course, in the 70's the issue was whether they could survive on 200K circulation (at least for most marvels), though DCs were lower.

 

marvel's monthly comic publishing arm turned a profit for a long long time, even when marvel itself went bankrupt. i do not know if it still does though.