Future of Comic Book Collecting

[PovertyRow]

Don't know why but was posted twice - see below.

[PovertyRow]

I am addressing this to no specific individual.

 

Why does the concept of "new" have to be weighed so heavily here? I mean, I have seen folks make pronouncements about the enitire comic book collecting world based on what is happening with newer books (and by newer I mean late 60's and above).

 

Now we have a thread on the future of comic book collecting but the majority of posts (many of them well thought out) still stick to new stuff.

 

I simply don't get it. I am 52 years old (or will be later this month) and know a lot of collectors and collector/dealers who concentrate on early 60's, 50's and earlier. These years are still included in the comic book market.

 

Around 1984 I realized there were two distinct comic book markets: old and new. Seems like things haven't changed even 18 years later.

 

I made a brief post here saying in part "At every con I have been to the majority of GA buyers are looking at G-F and paying appropriately for them...myself included."

 

I don't recall getting a response to that. But I maintain it is very accurate. We have two distinct animals here: new and old. But to glom them all into the concept: "The Future Of Comic Book Collecting"... just makes no sense.

 

Why do most folks here think that comic book collecting is mainly newer books? I just do not get it.

[Bonds25]

Because you and older collectors grew up reading comics, and that's why you're collecting them now. Do you think many kids that DON'T read comics now will suddenly start buying them in their 30s?

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

I understand what you are saying, and you brought up a very good point. I would guess that more money was spent in backissues this year than new books (Heritage anyone?). And the future of the Comic Book Market is not just in new book sales, but also in backissue sales (including all Ages).

 

However, I would say that one segment of the market cannot exist without the other. True people like me that don't buy new books anyway would still have interest. But it takes new readers/collectors to keep the tradition of reading/collecting comic books alive, and that is why I think most of us have concentrated on new books in this thread. Imagine a Comic Book Market without new books. Now that would be scary!

[PovertyRow]

Because you and older collectors grew up reading comics, and that's why you're collecting them now. Do you think many kids that DON'T read comics now will suddenly start buying them in their 30s?

 

No - as I have said a few times here - I started collecting comics because my Godson was interested in them - around 1980 - I was 30 then. Since then I have grown to appreciate the art and the stories to a considerable extent, going thourgh modern and silver and gold and finally centering (for a second time) on pre-code horror as a specialty.

 

And I repeat the point you are not getting...the number of collectors my age and a bit younger and a bit older are huge - they seek the books they like - many of them seeking older books from the 50's and eralier - and that market does not, to me, seem to be going down.

 

So I will ask it very simply: Why is the idea "Future Of Comic Book Collecting" relegated to mainly new stuff? Or am I, because I collect precode horror, not a comic book collector?

 

I thank you.

[Zonker]

You certainly are a collector. Welcome aboard!

 

However, I would imagine you are in the small minority of collectors who joined the hobby later in life. From the other posters on this board, I would suspect they-- like myself-- started reading new comics (at a fairly young age), then became fans and/or collectors, gradually moving back in time to collect earlier stuff than what we grew up on.

 

But I may be wrong. Your story may be much more common that some of us imagine. This was the reason I asked the question of Jens on his 3-month-new-collector thread.

 

Anyone else want to share?

 

Cheers,

Z.

[Kevin Boyd]

No I can tell them when I see them at shows, send them a letter, send them an e-mail. Or I may have to drop a book I was only mildly interested in.

 

Kev

[Kevin Boyd]

In my first post I started off by saying that there probably wouldn't be much of a change in the "old" market, aside from a gradual thinning of the ranks of those collectors.

 

If you don't care about "new" then don't follow the debate, as that's where we've been concentrating.... though "new" books eventually become "old" books.

 

Let me ask you though, how many of your "old" book dealers depend on "new" revenues in order to keep customers coming into the store to peruse "old" books? I know mine does to a certain extent.

 

Kev

[Kevin Boyd]

So I will ask it very simply: Why is the idea "Future Of Comic Book Collecting" relegated to mainly new stuff? Or am I, because I collect precode horror, not a comic book collector?

 

It isn't. Who can predict the behaviour of people collectible antiques. I can't. As long as there is a large collector base for the old stuff then I don't see what your concern is here.

 

Some of us have taken the discussion to the production of new comics.... if you don't care about them, then you don't care. If you don't see the correlation then that's your choice. But if the new market collapses, don't expect to see many big conventions, many stores, or many new people entering the hobby.

 

Everything will be e-bay based, with a few small dealer conventions with little or no public interest/ticket sales.

 

The last convention we had here was all focused on back issues - gold to modern. 105 people in a city of 3+ million came to the show of 50 dealers and sales were pretty miserable all around.

 

Kev

[Kevin Boyd]

I don't know what your status is MOS, but I find it amusing that people will pay multiples of guide for CGC graded modern back issues instead of buying new issues off the rack because of the price!

 

Oooo... I got me a 9.8 JLA #1.... how pretty... well worth the $50 I just paid for it on e-bay. New issues, naw they're too expensive for me to buy! I only pick them up for a buck each in the discount bin when I see them.

 

Aside from a few Simpsons comics, I don't think I've seen anyone under the age of 20 picking thru the back issue bins (at any price) in years at conventions that I've gone to or at the stores that I shop at.

 

I agree, kids aren't going to go looking for back issues independant of new issue sales.

 

Kev

[FlComicFan]

I find it laughable that you can lable someone a cheapskate because they dont feel new comics are worth the prices the publishers put on them. I am no scavenger I have been on both sides of the table. I ran a comic shop for 4 years while in school and I know all about the pits and pratfalls of running a viable comic store. As early as 1992 during the big comic explosion I was already hearing it from both kids and adults about them not being able to afford new comics. My response was to offer the best % discounts on new books and costantly buy collections to keep my back issue boxes full and priced cheap (at that time .25 books and Dollar books sold already close to what new issues were pulling on. I didnt blame customers for not paying 3.95 for some chromium covered piece of garbage back then and I dont blame anyone now. It called being a consumer you have the choice to say this is not worth what you are charging.

 

 

[Kevin Boyd]

Chet, I'm kind of overdoing this to make a point. I use "you" a lot but I don't necessarily mean you per se.

 

But I agree, If you choose not to buy them because of the price that's called personal choice. As the consumer you have that right. On the other hand, many stores and online services do offer excellent discounts on new issues if you sign up for a subscription service.

 

But if you choose to buy and read new comics after the fact at a heavily discounted price then I still stand by my original assertion: you are being cheap.

 

Hey, everyone in this hobby is a cheapskate. We all want the better deal, nearly everyone haggles on some level. If I see a bargain I'll hop on it as quick as the next guy.

 

I just feel that if you don't choose to support new titles because of the price and you then lament the cancellation of those titles because of poor sales then you have only yourself to blame by making the choice to not support the title. You've already written off that book (and as an extension the new comics industry) as being too expensive for you to support. Your personal choice as a consumer is a vote towards cancellation and extinction.

 

On that note, buying a title at a heavily reduced price as a back issue is not supporting a title, it's collecting back issues and ONLY helps the people that actually bought the books from recouping SOME of the revenues they lost by buying that comic in the first place.

 

As we've seen with many of the shortages of books from the late 1990's, the customers and stores did vote by ordering only to cover their subscribing customers and companies like Acclaim, Malibu and others were wiped out practically overnight. This still continues as we've seen Chaos go the way of the dodo.

 

No regrets right? Those companies weren't publishing books that most people wanted to read and were very reliant on speculation to sell books. And their cover prices were higher than the most Marvel and DC books. Nevertheless, I'm sure that someone out there was disappointed.

 

Hey special covers, variants, etc. ARE greed inspired, no doubt. But the regular issue of Green Lantern at $2.50 (or whatever it is now) isn't a greed price. It's the price that the market dictates between creative costs, production costs, lack of advertising revenue, and traditional ordering patterns of so many copies ordered each month. In all likelihood DC breaks even on the monthly Green Lantern. If the numbers fall below the cost of production they either replace the creative team or they cancel the book and start over or let the concept rest until there's interest (like what they've done with Hawkman).

 

And not supporting titles because of the false hope that the price will drop is looney IMO. If the books don't sell, they sure as heck aren't going to drop the price, they are going to be more inclined to raise the price or cancel them outright. That's wishful thinking with absolutely no precedent in ANY industry.

 

Kev

 

 

[PovertyRow]

However, I would say that one segment of the market cannot exist without the other. True people like me that don't buy new books anyway would still have interest. But it takes new readers/collectors to keep the tradition of reading/collecting comic books alive, and that is why I think most of us have concentrated on new books in this thread. Imagine a Comic Book Market without new books.

 

I'd say the old can exist without the new for maybe another 40 or 50 years. By then most of the old-book collectors will have passed on to the drawing table in the sky (or the ink well underneath). But who knows what will actually come to pass? You can't anticipate the human psyche.

[PovertyRow]

In my first post I started off by saying that there probably wouldn't be much of a change in the "old" market, aside from a gradual thinning of the ranks of those collectors.

 

So you did.

 

 

If you don't care about "new" then don't follow the debate, as that's where we've been concentrating.... though "new" books eventually become "old" books.

 

Then put it in MODERN if that's what it is about. We have not been doing justice to the main categories here lately anywway.

 

 

Let me ask you though, how many of your "old" book dealers depend on "new" revenues in order to keep customers coming into the store to peruse "old" books? I know mine does to a certain extent.

 

Of the dealers I mainly use, one I would say. Like many or most GA collector's, I deal primarily with mail order dealers who have nothing to do with new stock.

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

Kevthemev said: I don't know what your status is MOS, but I find it amusing that people will pay multiples of guide for CGC graded modern back issues instead of buying new issues off the rack because of the price!

 

My status? Ask some of the people around here about my status. Look in the marketplace at the topics I've posted. Kevin, I do NOT and will NOT pay multiples of guide, and I think that the speculators that do are crazy. However there are a very FEW (and I mean few) books are worthy of multiples of guide, and the few I'm thinking of would fall into the Gold/Silver ages, and are extremly rare, and always in demand. Personally, I will NOT pay guide for a raw book. I specialize in Bronze/Modern Superhero books, and either I buy them cheap or I don't buy them at all. To date, I ONLY have 1 one CGC graded book, and I paid the exact OverStreet value for it (including the S&H). What book? An Amazing Spider-Man 129 in VF 8.0 condition. Why was I willing to pay book value? 1.) Bronze Age key in my favorite title that features the first appearance of the Punisher, my favorite Marvel action hero 2.) Confidence in the grade - Overgraders run rampant on eBay, even so I can deal with slight overgrading on common modern books that I purchase for a fraction of cover price, but I could not afford to take a chance of trying to purchase a raw copy for less, so I decided to skip the hassle of dissappointments and having to purchase 3 VF+ copies to have 1 solid VF copy. 3.) In my opinion this book is currently undervalued (what did it go for 10 years ago?), and will likely increase in value, if for no other reason than it's an early Amazing Spider-Man book. What is Superman (vol. 1) 129 worth in VF condition? 4.) Spider-Man is my favorite Marvel Super-Hero, and 129 features one of my favorite Bronze Age covers.

 

Kevthemev said: Oooo... I got me a 9.8 JLA #1.... how pretty... well worth the $50 I just paid for it on e-bay. New issues, naw they're too expensive for me to buy! I only pick them up for a buck each in the discount bin when I see them.

 

Very funny Kevin, I never said that, but you put it in your response as if I did. I do have JLA # 1, but I paid less than cover price for it. Probably less than what you paid. I was fortunate enough to find an auction that included ALL of the following comic books for ONLY $50 (shipping & handling included):

• Adventures in the DC Universe # 1 –19, Annual # 1
  
• Hourman # 1
  
• JLA (1997) # 1, 4 – 41, 1,000,000, Annual # 1 – 3
  
• JLA Eight Page Giant # 2
  
• JLA Jr. # 1
  
• JLA: Paradise Lost #1 - 3
  
• JLA: Secret Files & Origins #1 (1997)
  
• JLA: The Nail #1, 2
  
• JLA vs. Titans # 1 - 3
  
• JLA: Year One # 1 – 3
  
• JLA: World Without Adults
  
• JLA/ WildC.A.T.S.
  
• JSA (1999) #3
  
• Justice League America (vol. 1) #53, 77, 125
  
• Justice League America (1987) # 5, 27, 28, 43 – 55, 57 – 60, 69, 70, Annual #5
• Justice League America: Mid-Summer Nightmare #1 - 3
  
• Justice League Europe # 20, 21, 29 – 31, 33 – 36
  
• Justice League Europe Annual # 2
  
• Justice League International #16, Annual #2
  
• Justice League Quarterly # 3
  
• Justice League Taskforce #5, 6
  
• Total Justice #1 – 3
  
• Young Justice #1 – 19, 1,000,000
  
• Young Justice-Sins of the Youth
  
• Justice Society Digest
  
• DC Special: Justice Society
  

Condition? 98% of the Adventures in the DC Universe, JLA, Total Justice, and Young Juctice books are in VF - NM condition, the older Justice League books average lower than VF, but the Justice League (vol. 1) # 53 is a nice book, I would grade it F/VF, maybe a Silver Age CGC VF-. I think most of us would say that I made out like a bandit on this deal, but the seller was also very happy because I clicked his BIN price!

 

Kevthemev said: Aside from a few Simpsons comics, I don't think I've seen anyone over the age of 20 picking thru the back issue bins (at any price) in years at conventions that I've gone to or at the stores that I shop at.

 

Umm...did you mean to say UNDER the age of 20?

 

Kevthemev said: I agree, kids aren't going to go looking for back issues independant of new issue sales.

 

What? You agree with me? Somebody mark that on your calandar.

[FlComicFan]

Kevin, so what then is the solution? Comics are not selling well. New readers are few. Kids cannot afford comics or feel their pocket money would be better spent elsewhere. Old time collectors couldnt give a rats butt about new books and the few that might have an inclination to pick up some monthly titles again ( I'd be willing to pick up a few to see if I've been missing something worth reading) feel the cover prices are too high and would rather spend it on back issues and not neccesarily from the past 10 years.

 

I've tried to come up with a few solutions. Lowering prices, expanding page counts, cheaper paper, more ads inside, more advertising etc. The easy fix has been to raise cover prices forcing a ever smaller group of consumers to support the ship. Using print to order runs to attract "investor/collectors" may work for a brief period but even that will collapse soon enough. No new readers/collectors means the hobby will have no new blood. In 10 years when you got to a comic show instead of it being filled with 18-40 year old males it will be 30-50 years olds and give it enough time the San Diego Con will have a booths for adult diapers and you and I will be fighting for aisle space in our electric wheelchairs. Chet

[Kevin Boyd]

Dude, at no point was I ever accusing you of doing any of those things. Once again you are reading to much into it.

 

Yes it was in response to your message but I tried to clear you of all involvement in what I was about to write in that post by saying "I don't know what your status is MOS"... which in truth I don't. I have no idea what you do or don't buy.

 

So I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

I was trying to say was that I find it amazing that people will spend $25 on a recent issue in 9.8 when they could have bought it off the rack two months before for $3.

 

Congratulartions on your big purchase.

 

And I did mean UNDER 20.

 

Kev

[Kevin Boyd]

I think the solution is to try something new. I think that the day of the monthly 32 page comic is slowly coming to an end. We've already seen that the comics industry is moving towards a larger commitment to graphic novels and trade paperbacks, and I think that's where the future of the business is going and I think it is there that much more aggressive sales tactics are required to increase market penetrance in book stores.

 

The books can be sold and marketted even more aggressively at book stores and online stores like Amazon.com, where they are seeing a growing business in the sales of new trades and hardcovers. The collectibles market is completely bypassed and the books are out in the public eye instead of locked up in a comic shop where no one will see them.

 

The companies can advertize the products much more easily and they have a longer shelf life than your average monthly comic book.

 

The comic companies would be best advised to hire more staff to actually go out into the field and work with the major booksellers to increase their presence in the marketplace and in the actual stores.

 

Many people have pointed out what kids are buying other than comics - collectible card games, beyblades, toys and especially video games. I've given my nephew some of the Essential Spider-Man volumes and he loves them, and given they price point is pretty low, I pick him up one a month, and that's the equivalent of 25+ comics in one package. Definitely worth the money.

 

Given that kids DO read... but aren't reading comic books we need to get those collected volumes onto the shelf beside the Harry Potter racks in the book store where parents and children do go. I'm sure that parents will consider getting the latest Ultimate Spider-Man volume for their kids if they got a chance to pick one up at the book store and review it.

 

The other benefit is that the older fan that has abandoned comics entirely will more than likely encounter these products in the bookstore and consider picking up a volume of stories. $3 for 22 pages of an incomplete story isn't enough perceived value, but $15 for 150 pages (and a complete story) sure does seem like a better value.

 

If the monthlies are kept around as trailers for the eventual collected edition, then the people that want the monthlies subsidize the work while in progress. This is a policy that has already been put into force at Marvel.

 

The hope then is that these new readers like what they see and purchase in greater numbers, the companies must continue to inform these new customers that if they like what they see they should consider locating their local comic shop or online comics seller for more information about where to find more comics material.

 

Kev

[The_Man_Of_Steel]

I have no idea what you do or don't buy.

 

...and I thought that responding to your response would be an opportunity for you to get a better understanding of what I buy, and that I'm a bargin hunter, NOT a cheapskate.

 

I was trying to say was that I find it amazing that people will spend $25 on a recent issue in 9.8 when they could have bought it off the rack two months before for $3.

 

...and I was just trying to let you know because you were responding to me, that I'm NOT one of those people spending $25 for a recent issue, and I'm also NOT one of those people that think $2.25 - $2.99 for a pamplet comic is a FAIR price.

 

[Kevin Boyd]

Wonderful. Consider me informed. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

Kev